As a matter of fact I did.



Or maybe they are one and the same.

What, couldn't wait to find out how it ends, so just skipped straight there? You missed the opening.



Whenever Satan acts, he must first ask permission to God. And Satan could not do anything unless God gave him that permission.

But you could not read what happened?

In other words, you will use the bible to prove the bible. How convenient, unless those you are trying to convince can actually think for themselves. You may not see it as mythology, but 5 out of every six people on this planet recognize it for that or worse.



Ah, but we only have the Judeo-Christian side of that exchange, don’t we? Christians made sure that anything disagreeing with their little superstition disappeared during their tenure as the controlling factor of the Roman Empire and Europe, so we will never know the truth, only what your mythology claims as the truth, once again you are attempting to use the bible to prove the bible. Mythraism, Judaism and Christianity are considered by many to be nothing more than heretical cults or Zorostrism, the first monotheistic and dualist religion.



Again you are attempting to blow smoke up our posteriors by using the bible to prove the bible. In the absence of substantiating evidence, that only remains the opinion of a small percentage of mankind.

So with Gods grace Satan does his evil work! So then God has a dual nature then.

Sounds to me like a multiple personality disorder. Too bad Dr Phil wasn't around then.

I think I might have said something close to this before.

Someone (I think it was CD) posted something similar awhile back. He postulated that the Christian God has Multiple Personality Disorder with the classic personalities - God the Father (normal), God the Son (childlike), God the Holy Spirit (simple minded) and the Evil God, Satan (the evil personaity). Either that or Christians are actually Polytheistics!

i concur on the MPD assessment. i too have postulated this before.

Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing then in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The singular "name", not plural "names". I suppose that just leave the multiple personality disorder then......

btw, Mako, it may be circular reasoning to use the Bible to prove itself, but hey, it works for me, ok. I have had in the past what you may call a "spiritual experience", but you'll probably put that down to my mind seeing what it wanted to see or some other such crap.

*shrugs* whatever............

I really do not have the time for this. People often grab verses out of context to show supposed contradictions in the bible.

People often misinterpret and or add their own restrictive definitions and criteria to the selected verses.

So I will just respond to the first supposed contradiction.


" PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."


Today I might say. I will have bacon and eggs for breakfast.

Tomorrow I might say, I will have bran flakes with raisins for breakfast.

Is that a contradiction. or are we allowed to do different things at different times according to the circumstances?

If you are looking for contradictions you will find them. If you are looking for consistencies you will find them. In fact one of the amazing things about the bible is suppose to be that though it was written by many people over thousands of years, it has remained so consistant.

Take my message for what you will.

This is what is now.

This is what might be.

With these contradictions how can the Bible be consistent? That in it's self is a contradiction.

Humans by our very nature are inconsistent and being written by man how can the Bible be consistent?

Using a verse you used.

Nice God you have there.

Anybody in here tired of the anti-religion bigots who post their crap day in day out? Sheesh- mind your own life, stop telling people what to beleive.

Please get used to it because I am here now.

its really the sheer ignorance some of them are capable of demonstrating that gets to me.

when xians stop persecuting all who disagree with them.when missionaries stop going to underprivileged countries and offering them food in exchange for baptism.
when they stop knocking on my door with their meaningless drivel.
when they stop telling jews, muslims, hindus, buddhists and pagans they will burn in hell if they don't convert to your bigoted, hateful garbage.
Sure. Not a problem.
an eye for an eye, xian. an eye for an eye.

Do they do this? As I said in the missionary post, perhaps long in the past, but not today. Today missionary work is about bringing aid where and when it's needed not withholding the aid under pain of eternal damnation.



We are only doing what our founder, Jesus Christ, tells us to do.



A statement is made that Jesus is the only way to God (because that is what we believe). We do not judge (at least I don't). Statement of what we consider to be fact, and accusing and judging someone are different things.



Matthew 5:38-42

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But i tell you, DO not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.And if someone wnts to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you".

Until next time,

yes, they still do this.

no, your founder was Paul, and his teachings are garbage.

What you believe is false. you don't own God. and jsus says to pray in secret to our father who is in secret.


if your imaginary savior really said this,
1. he is contradicting himself, because he also said that the law is not to be changed.
2. he is blaspheming the law by denying it.Anybody in here tired of the anti-religion bigots who post their crap day in day out? Sheesh- mind your own life, stop telling people what to beleive.


this is what i was responding to. I am not a bigot; xians are. You are a hateful, fearmoingering group of liars, and your savior is a false god.

Enlighten me then. I planned on going on missionary work for a couple of years (indeed I still might). The study i did for this, plus the people I know who ARE missionaries disagree strongly. No one told me not to give aid unless they converted. What is your source that missionaries refuse aid if the native's don't convert?



Your ignorance astounds me. I do not follow Paul. WHen I pray, i do not say "In the name of Paul, amen". I speak of Jesus. Indeed Paul said this same thing in 1 Corinthians.



Only your opinion that it is false. And what does prayer in secret have to do with this?



He is not changing the law. It is being fulfilled. "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it" (Matthew 5:17)



I am not a bigot. I am not hateful. I make no fearmongering. I am not a liar. Please refrain from generalisations.

And our saviour being a false God is just your opinion too.

Regards,

when I was in college, I knew chinese people who were "rice xians.their parents had to convert to get food for their children. i went to college in the 1970's. Is that recent enough for you?

Ah! the usual xian response. Call names.Your ignorance of the origin of your religion astounds me.
Study the origin of your church. Study something other than what has been shoved down your throat.

I am quoting from your n.t. find it yourself.
jsus did not claim to be God.

To fulfil means to obey.



he emphatically denies that he is God.he says he is god's son. We all are god's children.
"Have we all not one Father?" You can find that quote yourself. You might actually learn something and develop the ability to think; at least I hope so. It is in the Tanach. Do you know what that means?

I don't know. You went to college in the 70's. These Chinese you knew had parents who were Rice Christians. I do not know how old these people were. But by my reasoning, the event had to happen at least 40 years before the 70's (assuming these people were 20 when they went to college and they're parents conceived when they were 20). Thus the conservative view that I've come up with is that this event happened in the 1930's, 40's at the latest.

A lot can happen in 75 years.



Perhaps I chose my words poorly. Ignorance was the wrong term. But the origin of my "religion" (and I use this term loosely, because faith is more important that religion) is Jesus Christ. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). And Jesus commissions us to "go to all the nations" (Matthew 28:19). Just because Paul is a central figure in the early church movement, you assume he is the "founder". Wrong. As I mentioned, Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians, warning people specifically NOT TO FOLLOW HIM.



I know the passage. But I don't know why you brought up praying in secret here.



I'm sure you've read Matthew 5 before, but read it again. His words here fulfil the law, and bring the true meaning out. Also have a look at Matthew 22:37-40.



One word - trinity (or is it three words? Three-in-one)



I would like to learn more things. I have developed the ability to think; at least i hope so



As far as I know, the Tanach is similar to the Septuagint/Pentatuech. I could be wrong, but it's the Hebrew Bible.

Actually, I came to post to Amalgamut and tell him that I agreed with Mako's postings, but now that I am here, I will say that "Using the Buybull to prove the buybull isn't even reasoning, it is delusional and means nothing to anyone that does not follow (as Mako said once before) your supersition. Your spiritual experience is not reserved to your mythology alone, I have Hindu friends, Moslem friends, Buddhist friends and Jewish friends that have had "spiritual experiences". Does that make their religions the truth also? It all boils down to a malfunction of the pineal gland. Scientist have stimulated the pineal gland of volunteers and produced visions, voices of God and other "spiritual experiences". I second Mako about showing verifiable evidence of your God (mythology doesn't count) and add one thing to it - Prove with evidence contemporary to him (mythology doesn't count) that Jesus ever existed and while you are at it, (I wil steal from Cconsummate Deist) tell me what year he was born by reconciling Matthew and Luke. Lack of presenting proof shows the grand lie of your particular brand of Christianity

great, just what we need, another person that cant spell
anyone else sick of arguments from silence. i know i am.

This means, I assume, that you have no verifiable evidence? As for arguments from silence, the silence would be very indicative of the absence of the person, since historians and essayist of that period seized upon every little oddity and personage to write about and even though there are long dissertations on other would-be sons of god and messiahs, there is no mention (not even one) of a Jesus of Nazareth! This silence is very suspicious as far as that person ever having existed! Your man-god is nothing more than a combination of Mythraism and Judiasm cobbled together by Paul.

two brief mentions in Josephus and another one in Tacitus. you of course will say that those are forgeries, and i will not agrue with you on it because it would be a futile effort because i highly doubt anything save Josephus himself telling you it is authentic would change your mind.

the only thing an argument from silence proves is that the person in question was not popular enough with the right people to be put in the history books or that they didnt cause enough trouble to worry about.
do you have anyone writing about cruxified jewish peasants who didnt start rebellions by name?
its Mithraism. a question about that, how was Mithras born?
You seem to accept the existance of Paul, is there contemporary secular evidence of his existance.

mitrhra was a virgin bitth, like krishna, hercules, etc.

i guess you could call a rock a virgin. would definately a bit odd.
krishna's mother was married and had 6 children before him.

You forgot Pliny the Younger. He mentions Jesus too. But thanks for the heads up. I'd forgotten about Tacitus. I could only remember Josephus.

All the best

pliny the younger? is it that passage that talks about Christains singing hyms?

I think that's the one. I just checked the dates though. He wrote this in 112AD, so he's not absolutely contemporary, but it does give us a useful glimpse into early church history none-the-less.....

Yes, and this is what we call the trinity (that you don't understand).

When I said facts I was referring to Hebrew translations of words. You want the facts? Go study some Hebrew.

Then you don't know as much as you say you do (which I already knew).

Again, you boast as if you are a genius in this matter, yet you ask this question. Let me give you a hint....(its the last book of the bible).

Yes, and maybe you should stop talking so much and do more reading before you ask such silly questions and attempt to make weak points.

Again you are trying to use the bible to prove the bible - What about secular verifiable evidence don't you understand. Your evidence is a book of mythology and has no more authority to 5/6s of the world than does the Koran! When you can produce some true verifiable secular evidence, then come talk to me!

I at least examine both sides of the subject and use outside information to come to a decision as to the validity of your belief system! You on the other hand bury your nose in an antique book of mythology and swear that it answers all questions! As Lamont Cranston commented yesterday, "There are no stronger blinders than religious faith!"

Again you refer to a book of mythology that you constant read material into. You can't use the bible to prove the bible. You are the one making the extraordinary claim, you need to give extraordinary (non-mythological) evidence.

Maybe I wouldn't have to talk so much and make such "weak points" (which you have never been able to answer yet) if you would get your nose out of the book of mytholgy and actually learn something about science and history.

Welcome Charon

I'm curious. Are you bringing up this point to say that ALL denominations of Bible believers suppress the facts? Or only certain Bible cults? Or was it just a general statement applied to any sect or cult? Your thoughts, please?

All the best,

Thank you!

It was intended as a general comment about most religions. Take the Catholic church as an example and look at how Galileo Galilei was treated. The curch did not want to believe that earth revolved around the sun but now we know it to be fact. This is just one example of the suppression of knowledge that continues yet today. Granted not to the same extent as in the past.

Fair enough. That's your belief. But I think we've moved forward enough to say that most religious organisation (with the exception of a few cults which deny their members knowledge) do not hinder the pursuit of knowledge.

Have you ever read a book called "The Myths of Science"? Granted it's got Christian overtones, but it looks at various historical events that are commonly construed as religion vs. science, where relgion was trying to hinder science yada yada. Anyway, there's a section in there documenting the events surrounding Galileo. I'll get the information for you another time (it's like 1:15am over in my country), but the whole Religion hindering Galileo is a fallacy. As I said, i'll get the specifics soon, so don't go flaming my post until I've had a chance to look at the evidence again and post it for you guys. Thanks.

All the best,

No flame here but this is exactly what I am talking about.

Just wait for the info, k. Maybe you'll learn something.

Maybe I will too. That's what this is about, isn't it

Yes.

Welcome Charon to UM forum.

When one of these "Cults" tries to hinder the pursuit of knowledge it is usually because the knowledge goes against their beliefs.

http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Ma...ns/Galileo.html

Shortly after publication of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief Systems of the World - Ptolemaic and Copernican the Inquisition banned its sale and ordered Galileo to appear in Rome before them. Illness prevented him from travelling to Rome until 1633. Galileo's accusation at the trial which followed was that he had breached the conditions laid down by the Inquisition in 1616. However a different version of this decision was produced at the trial rather than the one Galileo had been given at the time. The truth of the Copernican theory was not an issue therefore; it was taken as a fact at the trial that this theory was false. This was logical, of course, since the judgement of 1616 had declared it totally false.

Found guilty, Galileo was condemned to lifelong imprisonment, but the sentence was carried out somewhat sympathetically and it amounted to house arrest rather than a prison sentence. He was able to live first with the Archbishop of Siena, then later to return to his home in Arcetri, near Florence, but had to spend the rest of his life watched over by officers from the Inquisition. In 1634 he suffered a severe blow when his daughter Virginia, Sister Maria Celeste, died. She had been a great support to her father through his illnesses and Galileo was shattered and could not work for many months. When he did manage to restart work, he began to write Discourses and mathematical demonstrations concerning the two new sciences.

After Galileo had completed work on the Discourses it was smuggled out of Italy, and taken to Leyden in Holland where it was published. It was his most rigorous mathematical work which treated problems on impetus, moments, and centres of gravity. Much of this work went back to the unpublished ideas in De Motu from around 1590 and the improvements which he had worked out during 1602-1604. In the Discourses he developed his ideas of the inclined plane writing:-

Thank you.


Thank you JMPD1.
That was the point I was trying to make to BFG.

You are welcome charon. Welcome to the zoo. Er, I mean the forums!

see? a smiley

I got it....And yeah some of these threads do look like a zoo!

No, I said "opinions based on facts". Facts in terms of Hebrew terminology. This wasnt a thread about "proving the bible," it was a thread about biblical contradictions. I myself have said MANY TIMES the bible is not proof.

What you don't understand is that I never said that I had evidence.

I gave you a link to help teach you that the scriptures are not contradictory (but thats not good enough for you). Maybe because its correct and you are wrong?

Ok, but my point still stands.

Putting the "mythology" aside, the bible does contain actual historical facts.

Yes, and as I said, "There are no stronger blinders than skeptics." Woohoo, do you think I'll win any awards for this comment?

???

Then WHY are you asking me about it? If you don't want to hear about it, then don't ask.

I never claimed I could prove the bible. YOU ASKED ME A QUESTION ABOUT IT! What should I use when you ask me a question about the bible? Should I use the United States constitution to answer your question about Jesus?

What "extrodinary claim" did I make? That the bible doesn't have contradictions? WHERE DID I SAY THE BIBLE IS 100% THE TRUTH? This is getting old fast on how you claim that I said I could prove the bible (when I never said I could). All I was talking about was how the scriptures, when analyzed, are not contradictory.

I answered your "contradictions" SEVERAL times. I even gave you anothers opinion on the matter (you must have not even bothered to read them). Some of the "contradictions" you have brought up (not necessarily here) in the past, often make me wonder how anyone could think they were a contradiction. Not only that, but I almost feel embarrassed for you to even address them.

Please, don't tell me what I can and cannot do, or what I should and shouldn't do. I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know.

No, you gave me the website that you took your answers from and it suffers from the same problem as your answers. It reads things into the scriptures that are not there and not even implied, so how can it be correct and what can I learn from it, How to twist things to attempt to prove my point? Come back when you have evidence.


What point still stands?


So does Macbeth, Julius Caesar, Grapes of Wrath, King Lear and The Republic, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are works of fiction, doesn't say much for your mythology, does it?

Probably not for originality, but maybe for weak attempts at humor!


Then why give an answer that you don’t have at least some evidence to support it?

Several times you have stated there are no contradictions in the Bible. But your fantastic claim that needs fantastic proof is that there was a man named Jesus who lived, preached, died, resurrected and was the Son of God, part of the Trinity. Now I am awaiting your fantastic proof


And that was the problem, you and the other anonymous person read into the scripture things that were not there and not even implied. That is not answering, that is tap dancing. Give me true answers without reading into things


Oh, I don’t know, but 300,000 man difference (especially when both verses identify them as warriors not service troops) is a sizeable contradiction that you still haven’t answered, only tapped danced around.


I am humbled to stand in the presence of such intellect! NOT!! Ludicrous delusions of grandeur!

With Respect

What of this?

What of this? Are these 'contradictions' you've found?



When you've read Psalm 22, then come back and tell me this is still a contradiction



Is this a contradiction? I can't see it. Exept that the Matthew account does not specifically mention words yelled.



Is this a contradiction? There is only a small difference in the phrase spoken.

Over all, the differences in these accounts are only minor. As an aside, a mock trial enquiring as to whether Jesus was who he claimed to be, the jury came to the conclusion that these differences in accounts STRENGTHENED the case for Jesus, because no eye-witness will have the same account of the same event. Sorry, can't find the link for you. It is there though. You'll just have to take my word for that, k

All the best