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Mad Manfred
Cut and pasted from Rotten...I will not post the link as it is a gore site and inappropriate for this site (PM me if you would like the link).


The English language is full of subtleties. For instance, it's good to be inquisitive. But it's bad to hold an Inquisition.

Since the death of Jesus Christ, the one sure way to rile up the Catholic Church has been to engage in heresy. Heresy is pretty much defined as "deliberately disagreeing with the church."

Historically, there have been between two billion and five billion non-Catholics living in the world at any given time since the Church was founded. That's a lot of heresy.

For three hundred years or so, the early Christians were few and far between, with the result that they mostly found themselves staring at the business end of the persecution gun. This inspired a high-minded libertarian commitment to religious freedom that lasted all of 30 seconds after they took over the Roman Empire.

From then on, it was "my way or the highway." Nevertheless, for the next 900 years, the battle against heresy was a loosely organized and largely non-violent affair. The wimpy Church fathers contented themselves with just writing against and occasionally excommunicating such heretics as the Gnostics. The decision to pursue this philosophical approach stemmed largely from unfavorable odds. Even after assimilating Rome, there weren't enough good, solid Christians in the power base to make the use of force an attractive option.

By the 12th century, this had changed, and the Church suddenly realized the sword is actually a lot mightier than the pen.

The first implementations of this policy were the Crusades, which involved sending armies out to forcibly convert those who didn't agree with the Pope (specifically the Muslims inhabiting the Holy Lands). The first Crusade went really well, but subsequent efforts to recapture the magic were miserable failures.

After a series of embarrassing setbacks, the Church turned its attention inward, busying itself with the task of rooting out the disloyal and misguided within its own domains, primarily Europe.

That's when the Inquisition was born.

Technically, the Inquisition is an ongoing function of the church (more on this below), but when people talk about "the Inquisition," they're usually referring to one of two historically notable incidents: the Albigensian Inquisition, or the Spanish Inquisition.

The Abigensian Inquisition was the first major operation of the sort put on by the Catholic Church. In southern France, a Christian sect known as the Cathars arose around the 12th century.

The Cathars become popular in the Languedoc region of France by living a chaste and ascetic lifestyle which was considerably more in the teachings of Jesus than the local clergy, who were at the time a motley crew of fornicating, corrupt money-grubbers.

The pope, motivated in large part by a lust for the wealth and lands of Languedoc, ordered a Crusade and subsequently an Inquisition in the region to stamp out the heretics and assume ownership of their property. The Crusade were very transparently about wealth and political power, so it failed to actually root out the alleged enemy, namely the Cathars. Once the mainstream Catholics had taken control of the region, they moved belatedly to squash the actual believers.

In 1233, Pope Gregory IX pronounced the official beginning of "The Inquisition," and send a cadre of hard-ass Dominican monks to carry it out. When they arrived in town, the Inquisitors laid out a deadline: Everyone had one month to confess all your warped, evil beliefs and come back into the fold, with only a minimal punishment.

When the month expired, all hell broke loose. The monks began staging trials, with the support of the local government. Any accusation of heresy was enough to start a trial going, and the names of the accusers were kept secret. The trials themselves were held in secret. After a brief flirtation with the concept of a "right to an attorney," all due process was dispensed with. The only appeal of a guilty verdict was to the pope.

The monks decided that the only way you could really be sure if someone was a heretic was to torture them extensively and creatively, just like Jesus would have wanted. Although the later Inquisitors would become far more creative in the use of machinery to support their efforts, the Dominicans were only subject to the papally decreed limit of citra membri diminutionem et mortis periculum, which meant "don't kill 'em" and "no amputations."

The medieval inquisition went on for a couple of centuries, during which time a lot of scores were settled in the South of France. Everyone and anyone with a grudge could hand over their friends, families, enemies and business rivals to the Inquisitors, who were anxious to meet their quotas. The punishment for a guilty verdict in an Inquisitorial trial could range from loss of property to prison to burning at the stake. And the verdict was almost always guilty.

In addition to uncounted numbers of completely innocent people, the Inquisition did succeed where the Albigensian Crusade had failed. By the time it was over, there were no more Cathars. There were also no more Knights Templar. The Knights had been a particularly wealthy and powerful secret society based in the region. The Catholics may have had other motives for killing them. Which is a whole other article. Or two or three.

You probably didn't expect that we would now discuss the Spanish Inquisition. But then, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! In the late 15th century, a new branch of the Inquisition was formed in Spain. The Spanish Inquisition was founded on the somewhat ludicrous notion that Jews and Muslims were pretending to covert to Catholicism in order to undermine the church in Spain.

Since the determination of what someone secretly believes in their heart is complicated by the lack of external and incontrovertible evidence, the Spanish Inquisition quickly became notorious for a) extremely creative use of torture and cool.gif its tendency to be unleashed on just about anyone at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at all (thus the "nobody expects" element).

Although you might have a picture of a quaint medieval hysteria, the Spanish Inquisition went on for THREE HUNDRED YEARS, lasting well into the 1800s. The first five years of the Spanish Inquisition were basically rampant mayhem with no appreciable diminishment of the "threat" from the fake Catholics. As a result, Tomas de Torquemada was appointed to, uh, whip the Inquisition into shape.

He succeeded beyond the Church's wildest nightmares. Thousands and thousands of "heretics" were burned at the stakes throughout the duration of the Spanish Inquisition (the exact numbers are unknown). There was no such thing as an "alleged" heretic under the Inquisitions reign of terror; there were only "repentant" and "unrepentant" heretics.

"Repentant" heretics were those who confessed their heresy and agreed to shell over big bucks to the Church. Poor people accused of heresy (who were relatively fewer) could only save themselves with full confessions and by naming the names of other heretics.

To assist people in repenting, the Inquisitors used any torture method they could think of, with the theoretical restriction that they couldn't break the skin. The Inquisitors came up with numerous gadgets to work within this restriction. They included:


The Judas Chair: This was a large pyramid-shaped "seat." Accused heretics were placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anuses or genitalia, then very, very slowly lowered onto the point with ropes. The effect was to gradually stretch out the opening of choice in an extremely painful manner.
The Head Vice: Pretty straightforward concept. They put your head into a specially fitted vice, and tighten it until your teeth are crushed, your bones crack and eventually your eyes pop out of their sockets.
The Pear: A large bulbous gadget is inserted in the orifice of choice, whether mouth, anus or vagina. A lever on the device then causes it to slowly expand whilst inserted. Eventually points emerge from the tips. (Apparently, internal bleeding doesn't count as "breaking the skin.")
The Wheel: Heretics are strapped to a big ol' wheel, and their bones are clubbed into shards. Not very creative, but quite effective.
Methods of execution weren't much better. Since death was the eventual outcome, the skin-breaking point was rendered largely moot. While burning at the stake was the most widely used method, being cost-effective and providing a fun spectacle for the whole family, there were other approaches used in special cases:

Sawing: Heretics were hung upside-down and sawed apart down the middle, starting at the crotch.
Disembowelment: Not the nice kind of disembowelment, where a samurai slits you wide open like a fish and you die in moments. No, that's not good enough for the Inquisition. A small hole is cut in the gut, then the intestines are drawn out slowly and carefully, keeping the victim alive for as much of the process as possible.
The Stake: Depending on how unrepentant a heretic might be, the process of burning at the stake could vary wildly. For instance, a fairly repentant heretic might be strangled, then burned. An entirely unrepentant heretic could be burned over the course of hours, using green wood or simply by placing them on top of hot coals and leaving them there until well done.
The last burning organized by the Inquisition was in 1834, when the Spanish Inquisition was officially abolished. But though Torquemada's legacy has been laid to rest, the Inquisition lives on.

Based in Vatican City, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is still one of the most powerful branches of the Church hierarchy. In 1965, the P.R.-sensitive Pope Paul VI rebranded the Inquisition as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, but it was still basically the Inquisition.

The modern church lacked the political power to institute wide-ranging reigns of terror and torture around the world, so the Congregation has to settle for sternly admonishing its targets these days. What a comedown!

Instead of being the most feared institution in the entire civilized world, the Congregation had to settle for making obscure theological pronouncements — in Latin, no less. So just in case you actually wanted to care about what they had to say, you wouldn't be able to read it anyway. In 1966, Paul VI even revoked its ability to ban books, leaving the Inquisition toothless and largely irrelevant going into the 21st century.

The Congregation did have a few brief moments of shining glory in recent years, such as the pronouncement that yoga was a tool of the devil and revealing the Third Secret of Fatima, as well as endless commentaries on why Homosexuality is so darn evil.

If they were smart, they'd fire up the Inquisition to deal with the whole priestly pedophilia problem. Think of the headlines! Think of the photo-ops! Especially once they dust off the Judas Chair for these guys...

I will post images momentarily...
Mad Manfred
Some poor bugger getting burned alive by the Inquisition...
Mad Manfred
The Wheel. Funny...these days you have to pay to have this done.
Mad Manfred
Torture chamber...
Mad Manfred
Tomas.
The Raven
QUOTE(Mad Manfred @ Dec 27 2004, 09:37 AM)
The Wheel. Funny...these days you have to pay to have this done.
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Here it sounds like the monks are the full blown heretics. Sure the Christians have been opressed at times, but this is just sick. There is far too much speculation, lies, and jumping to conclusions. If this ever happens again, it would be better to be against the ones who started it, they would be very easy to find -- just look around...

no.gif
Mad Manfred
Last but certainly not least...rather...elaborate *gags*
Q-La
These are all very sick and wrong. The current pope has started looking into the history of many wrongs the church commited. What can an old man do to make the world feel better?
Mad Manfred
QUOTE(Q-La @ Dec 28 2004, 01:55 AM)
These are all very sick and wrong.  The current pope has started looking into the history of many wrongs the church commited.  What can an old man do to make the world feel better?
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The current Pope can barely lift his own head let alone commit to something like that.

What I don't understand is this - why doesn't the church apologise for the millions of atrocities it's commited over the last fifteen hundred years?
Falco Rex
They have to a limited extent over the past few years, but as you said; John Paul II can't even eat his own soup without the potential of drowning in it. Without the Popes' approval no sweeping church reform can take place; and there's no way the current one is up to it. When his successor takes over we'll see if the Catholic church is really going to do some wide-scale housecleaning or whether thet'll allow themselves to sink completely into irrellevance and obscurity...
saucy
Ah, we're back to this again...

I agree. What the Catholic church has done in the name of Christ in the past is utterly sick and disgusting. I'm not saying you are nor am I naming names, but I'm sure all these events are being blamed on Jesus Himself for I've had many discussions about this on this site. Everything done was sparked by political or wealth motivated events and none of these men can hardly claim to be religious if motivated by greed or power and murdered thousands of people. It's all totally contradictory to the real teachings of Jesus and the church does owe an apology for all of it.

The true fact is that while these events are scars on the Christian faith, millions more have died and have been tortured because they were Christian and nobody wants to admit to it. There are millions upon millions of martyrs and there have been more martyrs killed in the 20th century than in any other century in history. There have been plots to rid the world of the Holy Bible, mass bible burnings and any Christian was killed. There were underground churches and anyone caught worshipping was tortured and killed. What about all of this? How come they aren't mentioned but everyone else wants an apology for what the church has done?
beowulf
The Catholic Church is not the only church to kill, enslave, and steal from others. Every Xian group has some hand in the mayhem going on. I am sure that all slave owners in America were not just Catholics. I am sure that the good missionaries that stole Hawaii from the native Hawaiians were not just Catholics. I am sure the people attempting genocide against the North American Native population were not just Catholics and I can take this to other lands and point out all the atrocities all Xian Churches have committed against the people of the world. The Catholics have done a lot of wrong - BUT THEY WERE NOT ALONE AMONG THE XIANS TO DO SO! disgust.gif
saucy
Yeah, it was the United States of Christianity that enslaved people and everything you mentioned. Come on. You make it sound like only Christians were responsible. I don't doubt that Christians owned slaves, but in America it was a north/south thing. Hey, guess what, athiests owned slaves too, but that's okay. Because there is no such thing as God, there really is no such thing as morality or good vs. evil. Athiests can do whatever the hell they want without actually getting blamed for it, oh but if a Christian makes a mistake it's all over the evening news! There's a story of a woman who aborted her baby because...she just didn't want it and thought raising a child would be too much for her to handle. She murdered a child and instead of being arrested or people being appaulded, she got letters of support. How disgusting is that? The same kind of people who say abortion is okay like to spend money to make sure the spotted owl doesn't go extinct or a tree isn't cut down. If you ask me, most Christians are decent people and have a code of morality they follow by (Christ's teachings) and it's the athiests who are pro-choice and have been for the most evil of all atrocities committed by humans. You can find any church in the country out there collecting for Toys for Tots, marching against abortions which is murder, having canned-food drives for the poor and loving everyone else, but the rest of world is trying to rid the world of that kind of goodness. Yes, the popes and religious leaders did those things in the past, but were led by greed and power, which is really what you athiests worship.
beowulf
You folks like to point out that America was a Xian nation! There probably were atheist slave holders, but atheist were few and far between in those days, sorry you Xians can't dodge the bullet on that one!
QUOTE
Athiests can do whatever the hell they want without actually getting blamed for it

Yep, no one blames ol' Joe Stalin, he was jest a good ole boy, and we can't blame him for the millions he had murdered! Get real!
QUOTE
if a Christian makes a mistake it's all over the evening news!

Y'all set yourselves up as so much better and holier than anyone else so when you slip we really really really really enjoy it!
Something I have never understood, the bible never mentions abortion, nor does it say when the soul enters the bible but modern Xians make such a to do about it. Ancient Xians believed the soul entered the body at the (beleive this or not but it is recorded) age of two year old! Then abortion that late would be murder!
QUOTE
You can find any church in the country out there collecting for Toys for Tots, marching against abortions which is murder, having canned-food drives for the poor and loving everyone else

I also find Gay and Lesbian organizations, military units, police departments, fire departments, etc doing the same - it's called being caring and human! Not being Xian!
QUOTE
Yes, the popes and religious leaders did those things in the past, but were led by greed and power

Like I have said before, I held the lifeless body of a two/three year old in my arms after her Balkan village was wiped out by Xian militia (we know because we caught them in the act and save a few for interrogation) because they were Muslims - so don't hand me that innocent Xian BS! Wake up and realize the evil your religon perpetrates on a daily basis world wide! mad.gif
saucy
Joseph Stalin as compared to...his much more famous Christian counterpart Adolf Hitler?

You need to wake up and understand that the bible does not say, "Thou shalt kill" or "Thou shalt kill babies" or "Thou shalt wipe out all muslims" or "Thou shalt capture slaves". None of it is of the biblical teaches. Jesus nor the bible is responsible. Instead, the bible does say, "Judge not" "Love thy neighbor" The bible teaches love and peace for everyone and "Thou shalt not kill" and the last I checked, killing a fetus, no matter what stage in life, is still destroying its life. If the mother doesn't want to have a baby, why kill it? Put it up for adoption! The truth of the matter is that the ones who are doing the evil are humans. They aren't just Christian. They come from all races, religions, backgrounds and colors. It's no use arguing that this group of people did this to another because it was probably done for a reason. For example, you said you were in that camp when the Christians attacked the muslims. In all of history has the muslims done anything against the Christians to provoke the attack? Oh, the muslims are so innocent. They were attacked and did nothing! Yeah right! Look in the middle east right now and tell me that the muslims are innocent, always suicide bombing Israel and for what reason? Israel fights back in retaliation. Nobody is innocent.
Stellar
QUOTE
"Thou shalt kill" or "Thou shalt kill babies" or "Thou shalt wipe out all muslims" or "Thou shalt capture slaves"


No, thats just the example god sets for us.
The Raven
Slaves were slaves not because of religion, because of COLOR. Sure, Christians have had their share of opression, but do you know the people that want to burn the bible and rid it from the world? Probably not, because since these people are obviously not Christian, Im guessing they are pagan, and that they and millions upon millions of other pagans have been murdered and tortured over the years. I doubt they hate Christians, but if they do, they will still hate christians in general for what they have done to them. Trust me, I've thought of doing it before, since some parts of your religion (AKA THE VATICAN) are the most corrupt and demented things on earth. Wouldn't it be nice if people could just conform and agree over religion and not have to do things like the Inqusition.

And about abortion and killing babies: Our population has gone so out of control that abortion and limiting babies is pretty much the only method left, so if someone aborts give them a pat on the back for bringing one less runt into the world. Sorry if that sounded a bit sadistic.
saucy
THat's what I was saying. Everyone, every race, every color has shared in being the oppressor and the oppressed. If I were to go to Iraq and shout that I was a Chrisitian, I would probably be shot dead. If I said I was a Christian in America, the ACLU would try to shut me down, but they supposedly fight for the first amendment! I'm not saying, "Oh, I've been oppressed, feel sorry for me". It's all human nature. The Christians think they are right. The muslims think they are right. The athiests think they are right and they all think everyone else is wrong. I'm just tired of everyone bringing up that Christians were responsible for the Inquisition. Well, I can think of many more horrible events aimed against the Christians. There are a lot of black scars on the human race as a whole. Instead of trying to put blame on someone, why not put your efforts to try and unite everyone together.
beowulf
QUOTE
In all of history has the muslims done anything against the Christians to provoke the attack? Oh, the muslims are so innocent

something Xians ignore when they talk about muslims and what they did to the Xians, when Islam started it's expansion into the Roman Empire, the combination of Church and State exploitation of the provinces was so horrendous that the Muslims had to do very little "conversion by the sword". With the exception of Roman and Church officials, entire provinces converted willingly to Islam. The Crusades are seen by Xians as "pay back", but actually they were unprovoked attacks for the sake of booty and land!
QUOTE
but do you know the people that want to burn the bible and rid it from the world?

Yes, and I agree with them, too much evil exists within it's pages!
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If I said I was a Christian in America, the ACLU would try to shut me down,

Saucy, you know that is not the truth. You are gaurenteed your right to worship how you want, your group just wants to force everyone to do the same and we are tired of it after 2000 years. A little over two hundred years ago we said loudly and strongly - "Enough of this BS"! That's when the 1st amendment was written!
QUOTE
I'm just tired of everyone bringing up that Christians were responsible for the Inquisition. Well, I can think of many more horrible events aimed against the Christians.

The thing is that Xians have 1700 years of doing unto others in the worse possible way, but now that they are becoming the minority, all of a sudden they want us to forget what they did! As if! wink2.gif
SilverCougar
QUOTE(saucy @ Dec 27 2004, 07:32 PM)
THat's what I was saying.  Everyone, every race, every color has shared in being the oppressor and the oppressed.  If I were to go to Iraq and shout that I was a Chrisitian, I would probably be shot dead.  If I said I was a Christian in America, the ACLU would try to shut me down, but they supposedly fight for the first amendment!  I'm not saying, "Oh, I've been oppressed, feel sorry for me".  It's all human nature.  The Christians think they are right.  The muslims think they are right.  The athiests think they are right and they all think everyone else is wrong.  I'm just tired of everyone bringing up that Christians were responsible for the Inquisition.  Well, I can think of many more horrible events aimed against the Christians.  There are a lot of black scars on the human race as a whole.  Instead of trying to put blame on someone, why not put your efforts to try and unite everyone together.
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And you know what I'm tired of? Christians screaming bloody murder about same sex marrages, not allowing stem cell research... abortions...

Not only that, but being called a heathen, being condemned to hell, listening to smugness of christians about this end of the world crap.

It goes both ways.
saucy
Do you know what I'm getting tired of? People screaming separation of church and state, my little cousins getting trouble in school because they pray before eating their lunch or carrying their bibles around, Christians not able to wear Christian clothing, but it's perfectly okay for a muslim girl to wear a head garment. I'm getting tired of the ACLU and other organizations trying to ruin the true meaning of Christmas and they actually told my pastor during a radio debate that Christmas no longer has anything to do with Jesus! Come one!

There has always been two sides to America. The left and the right. No matter who you are, you're never going to get everything you want. What you may think is right, such as homosexuality isn't always right with others. If America wants to pass a law allowing same sex marriage, I will not agree to it and I might protest it, but what can I do about it? I'll never get everything I want and I have to live with it. So do you. We feel that certain things are wrong. What makes them right in your eyes? I don't know. That goes both ways. All I know is that I posted not too long ago trying to encourage everyone of every race, religion and color to stop fighting and living in the past. Looking in the past will only lead to hate in the future. Everyone has been at the end of persecution and hate and that's the world we're living in today. Get over it. You're never going to have a happy life if you're always hateful and angry at everyone else and everyone else is wrong. Not all Christians preach about you going to hell or having smug attitudes or actually have feelings of hate. Some of us really take seriously the true teachings of Christ and I'm one of them thumbsup.gif

I say you can be who you want. It's your choice. You've made the decision. I can't judge you nor will I judge you. If your life makes you happy, then so be it, but being a Christian makes me happy and people can call me ignorant, stupid I don't care. I'm just happy.
SilverCougar
That's because Christians were so freaked about the way others were. Over sensitive that something different had happened. Segrigation comes to mind. I knew jewish children who wern't allowed to wear thier yamica's to school because it was offensive to the christians who went.

I couldn't wear any pagan symbols because people kept thinking I was some devil worshiper. I couldn't even say any of my prayers either.

It doesn't feel so good, does it Saucy? To be told not to wear something because it's offensive.

Heck, it's not just religion, it's personal things like sexual oriantation that gets told what they can and can't do that's ridiculous.


The problem is that Americans have gotten so gods damned over sensitive... kid's can't be kids.. people who want to be religious can't be... doctors can't help people for rear of malpractice suits...

And I do blame it on the right wing, christian conservitives. They kept whining, and pressing for bills and laws to prevent something stupid from happening.. just because it was so offensive to them...


Stellar
QUOTE
People screaming separation of church and state, my little cousins getting trouble in school because they pray before eating their lunch or carrying their bibles around, Christians not able to wear Christian clothing


Riiight... Were you there, or is it what you heard? If its true, sue them.

QUOTE
but it's perfectly okay for a muslim girl to wear a head garment.


Well, its a bit different wearing a head garment... dont they have to wear head garments, according to their religion?

QUOTE
and they actually told my pastor during a radio debate that Christmas no longer has anything to do with Jesus! Come one!


Past certain christmas carrols... it really doesnt. Many people celebrate christmas. Most of them celebrate St. Nick and being nice and grateful and generous... I dont know many that celebrate christmas because its Jesus' birth.
Kat_Kloud
QUOTE
"Thou shalt kill" or "Thou shalt kill babies" or "Thou shalt wipe out all muslims" or "Thou shalt capture slaves"




QUOTE
No, thats just the example god sets for us.


I get the gist that the christian god is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" guys.


As for abortion. When a baby dies naturally before being born, it is put into either one of two categories. One: it was below a certain age and therefore it requires no burial, no name, no nothing. Yet, wait a few months and that baby happens to die when it's a little further along in its stages, and OMG all of a sudden it's more human! It needs a name, dammit! It needs to buried and it needs this and that and this and that!

Do you get what I'm saying? So I say at that certain marker where they say, "Yeah it's human, give it a name and bury it, then that it when the mother shouldn't be aloud to perform an abortion. Any time before that, so be it.

If it's been a week into the pregnancy and the thing is this microscopic, curdled piece of flesh that one can't decypher from tissue in the mother's body then big deal.

beowulf
QUOTE
And I do blame it on the right wing, christian conservitives. They kept whining, and pressing for bills and laws to prevent something stupid from happening.. just because it was so offensive to them...

Truer words have never been spoken! They want us to forget the past (so we won't call Xianity on it's atrocities of the past and present), yet they want to keep the "good ole days" where they called all the shots and "to hell" (literally) with the opposition! Saucy, you are a prime example of that thinking. Not too long ago, if a child was to wear a tee shirt espousing Wicca, or prayed to the goddess before eating, the Xians would have had his head, the head of his parents and any other Wiccans in the area! So now what went around has come around and Xians everywhere are incensed! So sad, too bad you dished it out for 2000 years so now you can take it!
QUOTE
Past certain christmas carrols... it really doesnt. Many people celebrate christmas. Most of them celebrate St. Nick and being nice and grateful and generous... I dont know many that celebrate christmas because its Jesus' birth.

If you will look at the last 50 or so years, Christmas has been a secular holiday for most of America and Europe. Santa Claus/Father Christmas/Pere Noel/etc has been the central figure of the holiday since the late 40's early 50's and only the Xians have worried about the religious aspect of the holiday.
QUOTE
I get the gist that the christian god is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" guys.

Boy have you got that right! If we practiced half of what YHWH perpetrated, there wouldn't be a human race - Jews and Xians call him God, but if you described his actions without naming a name, they would call him a demon! yes.gif
saucy
I dished it out for two thousand years but now I can't take it?!? That's bullcrap. I haven't even been alive for two thousand years! I know what you were saying, but you group all Christians into one huge evil lump and it's wrong. Okay, so there have been a few Catholic jerks back in the day who were seeking power and wealth and killed a lot of people. Can I apologize for that? I wish I could but I had nothing to do with it. I've never oppressed anyone in my life. Wearing a Christian shirt in high school, my best friend got sent home, but the muslims girls got to wear their head garments. The point about all that is that kids can wear their Manson shirts and dress all gothy with a hundred piercings and muslims can wear their head garments though wearing anything on your head is indeed against the rules in my school, but to wear a shirt with the word Jesus on it is wrong?

Today in America, we're supposed to live in a world of religious tolerance. I've only been Christian for not even a year yet. I can hardly apologize for what happened in Christianity's past. All I can do is live peacfully and follow the true teachings of Jesus. If you want to lump me in with the rest of them, though I've never in my life persecuted anyone; hell i've had gay friends and friends who practice wicca. I allow people on my Christian website to go on and talk about their religion, which isn't Christian. This is just as stupid as the blacks coming out today and saying they want money for slavery. Excuse me! The blacks today never experienced slavery and nobody alive today in America has ever owned a slave. Why should I have to pay for something I was never a part of. Same goes here. I don't know what religion you guys are, if any, but I'm sure there are glaring holes and black marks in your past and history. Can you hardly be blamed for them? No.
Celumnaz
Can't we get along?

No! Some christians killed people 2k years ago and they say people are going to an imaginary place called hell! Burn them alllll!!!

Bring out the christian cannibals! They're everywhere! Pro-choice anti-gun gay black socialist athiest environmentalists unite against the evil christian cannibals while complaining and worrying and evangilizing how bad things are!

Oooo Evangelical Athiest... haddn't thought of that one before.... origin of the species thumpers.... hmm... never really bothered to follow that train of thought before...
Celumnaz
And nobody escapes the inquisition...
beowulf
QUOTE
but you group all Christians into one huge evil lump and it's wrong.

Yes, and I group all tigers into one huge evil lump for the same reason I lump all Xians into one huge evil lump – they are both driven to violence, one to feed itself and it’s young and one because of the exclusivity that it’s religion has established. Xians find it very easy to commit violence in the name of their god. Look at the Xians in Nazi Germany, those that didn’t actively participate (in the name of their religion) in the holocaust, looked the other way. It is all too easy for any theist to perpetrate violence in the name of his religion and justify it to himself and his co-religionists. By becoming a Xian, you took the burden of 2000 years of atrocities committed by your co-religionists (past and present) on your head, just as a baby tiger takes the millions of years of predation of his species on his head.
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Wearing a Christian shirt in high school, my best friend got sent home, but the muslims girls got to wear their head garments

Major difference is that the girl’s religion predicates that women must wear the head gear at all times, but Xianity does not dictate that your friend must wear that type of shirt at all times. The head gear is covered by the freedom of religion, the shirt is covered by dress code. Maybe the dress code needs to be adjusted, but that isn't within the scope of this discussion.
QUOTE
Oooo Evangelical Athiest... haddn't thought of that one before.... origin of the species thumpers.... hmm... never really bothered to follow that train of thought before...

It would be nice if I were an atheist. Sorry, but I am not an Atheist nor a pagan like you Xians….I follow the Creator! You don't have to be an atheist to be intelligent enough to realize Creationism is pure bunkum! yes.gif
Celumnaz
not specifically at you... but I like the term evangelical athiest... I know a few... they try to convert me.

but anyway, just to clear something up if you have a min beowulf... you said you believe in a creator, but not that things were created... do I read that right?
beowulf
I believe that the Greatest Scientist ever (after all he created even the concept of creation) created the entire "ball of wax" using the tools he made (to include the tools of quantum physics, atomics, evolution, etc). For mankind to even attempt to assert that he "spoke creation into existence" and that Creationism is factual shows our basic arrogance, even when we think we are worshipping him! yes.gif
Wings of Selkhet
Um. I'd just like to jump into the middle of this chaos and point out that wearing the hijab is actually a choice and not a religious requirement. I have Muslim girlfriends who do and do not wear the hijab. It's not required by any religion - it's a conscious choice. That's why the legislation in France pisses me off so much - they claim they're trying to erradicate religion in schools when it has absolutely nothing to do with religion. I've though about covering my hair myself and I'm not Muslim. It's about modesty, not religion.

Anyway.

Beowulf, you're being unfair to saucy. Saucy, you're being unfair to beowulf. Can't we all just return to the original topic of this thread and stop arguing about things that we can't change right now?

I really do wonder about the maturity in this forum sometimes. no.gif Both of you are only mirroring the religious hatred that has plagued the world for thousands of years.
SilverCougar
Over here.. it's a choice, sometimes. Over in the middle east, it's law.
Wings of Selkhet
Yes, but that's a cultural problem - it has nothing to do with religion. Nowhere in the Qur'an or in the Hadiths is it said that women must be covered. The Qur'an is actually famed for promoting equal rights among women moreso than Judeo-Christian scriptures ever have. Unfortunately, men in the middle east often use Islam to justify the way they treat women and the rest of the world. I hate how the evil leaders in power in some Middle Eastern countries try to use Islam to justify some of their most barbaric practices. I find it to be one of the most misrepresented and misunderstood religions.
beowulf
Wings, you have a point....I just get tired of Xians whining and crying because now the world is treating them as they have treated all others for 1700 years! It has been my contention all along that to come on a secular forum and post religious propaganda is rude and uncalled for, if you want Xian (Buddhist, Jewish, etc) fellowship, then go to a website devoted to that! thumbsup.gif
There is also the thought that the headgear is precieved by non-Muslims (and possibly the girl's particular congregation of Muslims) as a part of their particular beliefs and as such would be (whether erroneously or not) covered by freedom of religion! The Xian propaganda tee shirt would still fall under dress code as overtly religious and offensive! Yes Saucy, offensive to many!:yes:
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