If only it was that easy to do. But then we could not have these long winded debates(?).

HaHa... How true.. lol

LBD

Oh you'd be surprised!

Theres still flat earth believers around!

There is a car lot filled with new cars. But can you prove that there are builders of Cars? maybe they just evolved. Is their existance any evidence that someone else was involved?

Is the Existance of all the different forms of life, All the complex forms of life any evidence of a Creator? Just because thre is billions of different forms of life, many dependant on one other form. Could that show anything of itself?

Could our looking at what we would call the simplest life form. And seeing how many complex systems to just be brought into existance provide any evidence?

The mere fact you can ask if there is a God is evidence you exist, and how did that come about? You can take reproduction back so far, But then where do you go? Sooner or later you get back to what would be called the First Human, the First rabbit, the First horse, the First whale, And the First living thing.

Where does that trail lead? To a DEAD END. With NO LIFE before it.

Maybe a life form we can not examine might have gotten it all started, One a bit smarter then the average Genetic Engineer.

A blind man stumbling through the forest bumping his head into trees, But will not believe in trees because he can not see any.

Ken

I am sorry, but this is one of the silliest things I have ever heard...
What is the point of it? What are you try to prove with this statement?

Yes they are commonly called the big three (Ford, GMC. and Crystler) Who else could you be referring to?..DUH.. Yes I would say we evolved! **A loud sigh**..DUH.. Here we go again How many times must I tell you my beliefs? We evolved from Primates and no it is not evidence of a creator. Thank for giving me one. Evolution in it's real form.Before reproduction? Cell division I would think. Be for life developed on Earth yes. You know ken I think you might be catching on now! Good work Keep it up.If you are referring to God I thought it was said that he was not "A LIFE FORM". But then you have said that "You do not believe in sound Christian doctrine" Remember?A good analog for you to use about Evolution.

That is a joke right? I hope.

ken trying to analog people to cars ranks up there in one of the silliest things I have heard too! Where is your Christian world coming to. **With a very loud laugh**
PS. I am not going to let that reflect on you or any other Christian LBD.

Your a good guy for that zandore...
thanks..

LBD

Some times the truth hurts and some times it don't. But then some are nuts.

Could this be why you dont believe

Inventing God…

İmagine you’re way back in the mists of time, you’re part of a small community of hunter gatherers / slash-burn farmers led by an alpha male – the best hunter, a big , ruthless fighter who holds his position through strength. All the females are his, as well as most of the children, and women are awarded to the bravest of the tribe at his whim. Basically – strength governs your status in the group and your chances of pro-creating. Life is cheap, mercy is unkown. You’re a very clever person, but physically weak. An omega to the alpha. How do you achieve power..?

• hit the weights.
• suck up to the alpha, be his absolute slave.
• İnvent something useful and keep the secret to yourself.
• Find a protector.

- you can’t hit the weights because you don’t get enough time or food to do so.
- You could suck up – but you risk becomming a punch-bag if alpha gets angry, and the minute you get any good treatment, his stonger cronies will kill you.
- Research takes time that you haven’t got.

So – find a protector, but who, how…? you have no valubles to pay them, and no-one in the tribe will stand against the alpha anyway. So you invent God.

God’s ideal, he’s big, scary, sees everything, hears everything… protects the weak from the strong… And you are his one and only priest… he listens to you. You don’t have to pay him, he’ll never be killed, or die of disease, he’ll never turn on you – he’s dependable.

All you have to do is convince the tribe of his existance. Stories are the key. No TV available, no books, no comics ( aside from hide-painting, perhaps). The average age is probably late teens early twenties… people are bored, they’re frightened of everything, all knowledge stops beyond the territory of the tribe, there could be anything out there…

You start telling stories about him, say they come from dreams or whatever, god makes the plants grow, if he’s happy, god sends the animals, if he’s happy, God gives you healthy children, if he’s happy. God causes drought, if he’s angry, God sends the lightning, if he’s angry, God makes you barren, if he’s angry…You work your god into the story-culture of the tribe… Then you wait for a natural disaster, a drought say, and wait till the tribe is at the end of it’s tether. Then make a big speech about going to find god and sort all this mess out, disappear into the forest where you’ve hidden some provisions, paint your ass blue, stick a carrot through your nose etc. Dress for the part… And come back when it rains… Voila,
you ‘ve saved the tribe and suddenly have a secure power base. Big, bad alpha can’t attack you, without getting into god’s bad books, turning the whole tribe against him, simularly, he can’t just let you run about without doing anything, so he promotes you, gives you some wives and a new house/shelter, he becomes your biggest buddy (he wants some of your new power for himself – camel pissing out of the tent etc.) Of course you keep a bodyguard of fanatic converts around you to prevent another ex-crony from killing you).

Thing go back to normal, crises over. Your influence diminishes. You trot off into the mountains again – bring back some rules.

1. You shall not worship any other god (make sure your god sticks around)
2. You shall not make a graven image. (ditto)
3. You shall not take the name of god in vain. (re-inforce the fact that your god is quick to anger)
4. You shall not break the (insert holy day here). (ritual reinforces belief and you link an easy, enjoyable day of singing and dancing with your god)
5. You shall not dishonor your parents. ( for ‘parents’ read ‘authority figures’ – don’t let the new generation screw with your priest-dynasty)
6. You shall not murder. ( you don’t want anyone murdering you, and as you don’t have the physical strength to murder – you fear anyone with the strength to do so)
7. You shall not commit adultery (“you shall not take another man’s woman”)(you want to be sure that all your sons are your sons, and do not have the physical strength to protect your females)
8. You shall not steal. (once again, you can’t protect the stuff you have so you don’t want anyone stronger taking it)
9. You shall not lie. (that way, when you lie, people won’t be used to it, and you can make them believe any old tat)
10. You shall not covet. (let’s you live with your neihbors with some sense of security – even feeling jealous of your new found riches within the tribe is a mortal sin.

Now – the strong alpha types won’t like these rules, “do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” (read “ do as much as your physical strength will allow you to get away with”) is more their kind of credo… Implies everyone will be as happy as Larry… (forgetting that’s true only if Larry lets them….)
But – not everyone is alpha, in fact the majority of the tribe is beta/ceta/delta… Alpha types tend to compete themselves out of the game… They fight, the winner takes all and sometimes kills off the other’s blood-relatives and children to boot… Meanwhile, the meek have inherited the earth and are pissed at being bossed around by these big beefy types who have no idea about this new idea ‘trade’ They like the rules because they promise to bring stability within the community – not having to curry favour with a new psychotic killer-leader every few years… Not worrying about your wife, daughter, possessions as much… And at what cost – one day every now and again down the temple, and perhaps a monthly tithe, (which you would have had to spend on bribes anyway – plus with a tithe you can plan ahead)…

So, there you go, “a smart-nerd invented god…” Discuss.

Jon Koca.

I don't know the author but he signed it Jon Koca but it's a nice philosophical thought.

source

X: Not quite sure what you are trying to say.

Regardless, all things exist on the basis that something once prior existed to them. Ie. lifeforms can neither be created nor evolved without something before them. Evolution itself, growth, etc. recycles materials and then becomes them. Moreover, anything created is from the Creator.

It is all the same thing; God is at the very root of all things. The fact that you can witness many other creations and then reconsider to whom you wish to worship (that which is the root, or that which is the root of a root) is your choice. However, it is absolutely incorrect to tell me I cannot prove the existence of God, because (and I may be out of my mind to say this) am very wise, and I can tell you that this huge amount of wisdom has been given me that I recognize I exist, and that a root does exist.

However, this root being Jesus Christ, I believe, and then the gardener of the root/vine is the Father. Tell me that I cannot prove existence exists, and you will, inherently, admit that you are mentally ill. For if you deny a root, you deny your competency, and so, aside from attempting to look intelligent, you really do need help.

Summary: I am always right you are always wrong because jesus and god said so 3:16

For your belief this might be true, But for my belief no it cannot be farther from the truth.Are you saying that it is OK to worship a creation? I never said that you could or couldn't prove of Gods existence but if you can I think that there are many on this forum that would be happy to see the evidence that you think you have. Also wisdom is only in the eye of the beholder. So from this you are saying that anyone that does not believe in God is "mentally ill"? Intelligence is what brought us from caves to skyscrapers to the moon and hopefully to mars. A remark like that makes me think of what a dimwitted monkey might say.

Jesus was not Gods only son. Look up Genesis chapter 6 verse 2. It starts off with "The sons of God". So my friend Hotoke who is right?

That is just an opinion... I actually think the bible does make it clear that Jesus was God...
He was a part of the Trinity that is God...
But unless your christian it really doesnt matter... lol

just my opinion..

LBD

To the original poster here of the original question. Belief in god is not something that is given it is, something you have to work for and earn. Take my word on this, cause i dont have time to post here. It is there you have to open your mind and work at it. nothing is free in this world.
Razor

Free, just believe in yourself and your family. All we know is the physical world, we might as well make the most of it. The spiritual world is intangiable...scratch that, i dont want to start a debate.

You are permitted to hypocritically portray your own image all you wish by pointing a finger at me and judging me. However, regardless how obnoxious you wish to make me out to be, your own attitude and opinion means absolutely nothing when it comes to fact, truth, and of course reality. If you wish to constantly assert that I am suggesting I am always right and you're always wrong; you may do so. Stellar has chosen that route as well, perhaps you have made a friend in your blaming and pointing-fingers brigade. Let's see how far it will get you.

Jesus is the only begotten, not made Son. The only way to be God's son is through the Son (a branch cannot be fed without first the vine delivering.)

I suppose the same is true for god?



And, as a nonbeliever, I dont think we have been created!



In christservants voice:

Its the same thing; god doesnt exist. It is absolutely incorrect to tell me I cannot prove the nonexistence of God, because I am very wise, and I can tell you that this huge amount of wisdom has given me that I regognize I exist, and that no intelligent creator exists.



Of course, I didnt mean it when I said that I know he exists, I wrote the above that way to prove a point. I'm at ease enough with my beliefs to admit I'm fallible and I dont know he doesnt exist... you're to stubborn and arrogant to admit you might be wrong though.



No, we just disagree what that root is. And believe me, its not me who needs help looking intelligent, its you!

If anyone is a hipocrit around here you.



Neither do yours.



Reread what you just wrong. You were saying that the root is Jesus Christ and that him and god are the root of us. See? You just said you're right and we're wrong.

A dimwitted monkey? Yet you are the one who praises towers, the oppression of the poor, and worthless space travel. We live on a healthy planet, as far as we know the only healthy planet with liquid water, nutritional soil, oxygen, an atmosphere, etc. that we can thrive on.

So, apparently it is an achievement to waste billions of dollars on traveling to desolate wastelands, with absolutely no resources, to take our own current resources to, in order to get away from and avoid the present society?

Yes, let the rich go live on the moon and take more resources for their overfed mouths with them, while starving children in ethiopia, the rest of Africa, Asia, and all over the entire world (and, yes, even your own country, state, neighborhood even) stay here, abandoned and wondering why people would rather play spacemen in overwhelmingly gaunt areas than turn the present oasis, that is earth into a paradise.

What a shame. Not to mention aside from poverty every other single problem we have going on with crime and famine. Anyone thought that thinks space travel is an achievement ought to be regarded as a disgrace, and, yes, further mental illness.

Who says he worships towers, oppression of the poor, and space travel?

Infact, space travel isnt that worthless neither. We're in the persuit of knowledge... humans are curious... space travel can help satisfy some of that curiosity.



No one's trying to get away from todays society, they're trying to increase the knowledge of todays society. Hell, if we get the tech to terraform Mars or find another planet suitable for colonization, its not gonna be by sitting on Earth and not exploring!



I suppose you live without electricity, television and any form of entertainment? Your money goes directly to help those people?

Talk about hipocrisy.

What, apparently, the nonchristians are all for people starving, the christians are all against it?



Anyone like you should be put away and shut up for the good of the society. Such hipocrisy...

That's a bad argument; many people can be curious about many things. Don't overstep the boundaries or disregard human-life for it. And why do you defend others to me. It is neither their nor my fault if (and I believe you do) you hold hatred and resentment toward me and refuse to let it go. Stop playing big-brother. What great achievements have you made that you warrant being a mediator to any or everything regarding me?

Aren't you the one who insists I keep telling people everything they believe is wrong, and I am right? Although I never said such a thing, and I myself admit to speculating, learning, discovering, wondering, etc. of truths.



There are many unexplored places on earth. We don't need to go to a million other places, when the impact of society is with the human spirit (or even the human presence, mind, love, and support--since you like to disregard my statements as worthless just because you don't agree with the terminology, using it as an excuse to shun or make me look like a an idiot) and the human conditioning. Yet, men wish to fulfill worthless fantasies with things they cannot complete, nor help society with. We have plenty of deserts on earth; let us turn earth into a paradise, remove the poor, and restore the human spirit (and, since you're so bold as to hate the term spirit, since you claim do not believe in it--I think that's you) among which reducing crime and bettering the entire world before attempting to run away from our fellow brothers (neighbor) and filling the lust for luxary with childhood "spacemen".

Try to control your inner curiousity, because it can overtake you if you don't let yourself remain in truth. I don't think curiousity shoud license neglect over love any day.



I live with electricity. At the same time I don't own much, nor wish to. I wish to remain poor, nomadic, and preaching the gospel to many peoples. I believe eternal possessions and afterlife is more important than this life. I believe this world is a stepping-stone now. Suffering and the like is necessary for growth; if you cannot then have suffering in heaven, why would you ever devalue the worth of the toilsome work here, when this is the chance?

I clearly wish to make the world a better place with Christ, so what is your defense? What are you doing? I believe Christ can give us paradise and perfection. What then are you doing that you call me a hypocrite? I don't judge you, but in Christ I believe Christ's judgment or teachings are more important than whatever you may teach otherwise.

No one's disregarding human life. Infact, there have been experiments done to see if in 0g, soils would be more fertil and such in the hopes of being able to feed more people.



What great achievements have you made that you awrrent being a mediator to anything regarding humanity?

You complain about money going to space travel, but you're right here on the computer, using money debating here when you could be donating that money to the needy.



Bull sh**. Everyone sees it, and thats why many people are frustrated when they talk to you.



But I dont consider space travel worthless not unachievable. You do realise that space travel equates to exploration of the Earth a long time ago? If people like you filled the population many years ago, we would be cooped up in 1 city on the Earth with no knowledge of anything else.



What do you mean you think thats me? What am I according to you?



But thats the thing, we are trying to reduce crime and better the world... and no, space travel is not luxurious at all.



And trying to achieve space travel is neglecting love? in what way?



Let me stop you right there. So, you preach the gospel to many people? Why? Why dont you benefit society by doing some volunteer work?



Good for you... just as other people who are interested in space travel are also trying to make the world and life a better place.



And others believe that space travel can open up new possibilities and better all of our lives.



Im not bing a hypocrite, thats what.

This is my mom's computer, and she pays monthly, so I'm using only electricity. Moreover, what's it to you if I use electricity and I happened to be making more money off of it to give to the poor? When did I say electricity is all that demeaning?

Electricity can heat homes and preach the gospel all across the globe. I could care less what your godless chatter declares. My belief is that I am doing my duty to Christ to preach his word. Your disbelief only leaves you unjustified and condemned.

About volunteer work: I don't drive, and aside from that, my belief says that preaching the gospel and leading people to repentence can cover over a multitude of sins. How is this not effective? If you want to argue your godless reasoning like you seem to think you may pursuade me to care about, then save it, because I insist I am not interested. I am interested only in winning souls for Christ.

You've made it clear you think I am offensive because of this, so save the complaining and get over it. Until we see face-to-face, what good will your arguing do? You know I want to change your mind, and if you know you will not, then why do you harrass me? I didn't come to you, in fact you are still and always have been the one coming to me. Do I interest you? If so, then listen when I tell you that you appear to have absolutely no respect.

You know where I stand; so stop acting all offended. My beliefs make it okay, and if yours do not, then we will not see eye-to-eye. Our arguing is only polluting threads.

We both know inhabiting the moon is a waste of money, especially when we have deserts and all sorts of poor neighborhoods and the like all over the world, and people going hungry. If I had $1,000,000 I would give it all away for the greater good. If I had $1,000,000,000, I would do likewise. Why then is it hypocritical to live a life, while men go wasting the money they demand from us? It is hypocritical to point out men are taking billions of dollars and throwing it away in regards to the love of our fellow men? I do not have millions, billions, or even thousands of dollars for you to compare me to that. If I did, know that if the Lord is willing to enable me I will give it all away for his cause.

Yeah, I think you two should just agree to disagree and show eachother more respect... It doesn't seem like either of you two care about what the other says, only what you say...

Just my opinion..

LBD

My point was, you start ranting on people spending money on space travel instead of something you say is more productive, feeding the poor. My point is, you're spending money on various other forms of entertainment instead of using all of it to feed the poor, so really, you dont have a case. Your case is basically "I dont think space exploration is important therefor its stupid."



Again, you missed my point. Your belief that you are doing what is right and something good doesnt justify it any more than someone elses belief that space exploration is good for humanity. Simply because yours bears with religion doesnt make it more important. You think that preaching the gospel is doing good, but space travel is stupid and for the mentally ill. I think that space travel and exploration is good, and better than preaching the gospel. Difference is, I dont say you're mentally retarded if you manage to convert someone and are happy about it.



IMO, it isnt effective at all. You seem to want everything your way, and complain when something doesnt mold into your desires. I dont call you stupid because of your belief or interests though, do I?



I have no respect? I came to you? You're the one looking for an argument and the one who lacks respect. You started dictating to zandore what he believes in. You wrongfully termed him as someone who believes in opressing the poor because he doesnt have your beliefs. THAT is disrespectful.



Ill stop acting offended when you stop offending.



Again, you think its a waste of money, but not everyone believes that... just as I believe you preaching is a waste of money and time, but you dont preache that.



Some people believe that space exploration IS a greater good, far greater than preaching the gospel. You seem to complain that people/organisations/governments, while spending on helping others, put some money into space exploration. You would rather all their money go to help others. Thats what makes you a hipocrite, because you yourself dont give all your available money to helping others, do you?



Then is it wrong for me to point out that people like you are wasting money and time trying to convert others instead of actually helping feed someone on the street?



Thats no excuse. You have money to spend on electricity and entertainment. The money accumulates. Remember the saying? Every penny counts?



Ahh, so you'd spend it on preaching and trying to convert others instead of trying to feed people who are starving?

Lightbeyondthedark.

The Point was, and throughout the post, You have more then enough proof that God exists by the world around us. This is a CREATION, Not a chance happening. The Design is very complicated in almost every form of life. And very different in complexity.

Those who cry for PROOF have their eyes closed and would not accept it anyway. For it is all around them. You see a lot full of cars, Why would you need to have proof someone made them?
Do they need to be taken to a factory and see each step of the production?

Silly is not accepting the proof that they dwell in daily. Life is far to complex to have evolved. And Science has yet to explain how that dumb Bumble bee can fly? Someone ought to tell the bee it’s wings are too short. Or maybe God said to the bee, Thy wings are sufficient.


Zandore, You evolved from a primate? How far did you evolve from one? You are the one who has the TAIL, Right? That is why it was so important to you.

Cell division is a cell reproducing itself. If Simple cell division was that simple, I could buy just one egg, and have plenty as they divided daily in the refrigerator.

God would be a Life Form, Just a different life form then us,

NUTS?
(SOLOMON 6:11) I went down into the garden of nuts to see the
fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished and
the pomegranates budded. (KJV)

Coconut to be exact, Having Milk, Meat and a very hard nut to crack.

(1CORINTHIANS 3:2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for
hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (KJV)

Ken

Ken,

I agree with you that there is more then enough proof to see God is real...
But the whole "I am holier then thou" attitude you have will not fly...
You need to open your eyes and try to have more understanding for your fellow man...

just my humble opinion...

LBD

i think your sarcasm detector is broken

download a new one

ww.sarcasmdetector.com

Yes, the world can do without sarcasm--those sarcastic fellows who agree that they're better than other people.

No, I don't care what he says because every time I post he ends up tracking me down and then posting a completely disagreeing reply in response to it. Not to mention always tries to make it seem like I'm such an agitator. Bottom line: I don't need people like him insulting me and using profanity with me. I have better things to do, but it's impossible to disagree with such a profoundly oppressive crowd.

It's always me having to defend myself because he's an antagonizer.

And, for the record, I do realize I put him in a position of defense by calling him oppressive and antagonistic. But if that's what he is, I will not deny the truth, because it's a truth that forces me to do so, and as such I should not be judged for it.

Stellar doesn't understand Christianity; rather he takes the offense. He doesn't understand that when people speak of truth, we aren't necessarily judging others, rather attempting to favorably affect them toward being better--except that he uses insults and profanity, and as such, I highly doubt he speaks to people in real life that way--and if he does, or even if he doesn't, I'm not ashamed to try to help him.

I hear you... I know your struggle with things like that...
But what did Jesus say? "Turn the other cheek"
Let them attack you, you should not have to defend anything as long as in your heart you know what is true...

thats just my opinion...

LBD

When was the last time you step out side and took a deep breath? Smell the smog? When was the last time you drove down the highway or for that matter any road and did not see any litter? Listen to the news and you hear about global warming and you call this a healthy planet?

What proof do you have that God did what you say he did? Is it hard evidence? Scientific evidence or just the Bible?What about the hard scientific evidence for evolution? We have our eyes open ken, You are the one that does not believe in your own GodWhy can't you answer the question? Yes all of us have a vestigial tail also called I think a "COCCYX". Look it up in a medical dictionary or click here: innerbody.com/
Or here:livescience.com
Only you would think like that.

Life is not fair, and la monde, mi tierra is a beautiful and dangerous place. The God is not a dictator, and would be a petty thing if she was. There are earthquakes, tidalwaves and evil men simply because there are. The natural disaters are simply the way of the world, the unnatural ones are the choices of man and woman. Those are wicked because they are an unessesary hurt in a already tough existence that we all endure. It is not fair. I have a horrible feeling it may not be "meant" to be fair. But it is the way, and you are not alone. We survive these hardships...and trust me, mi chica we ALL have been hurt badly...by enduring together....that is why we are social animals...we can develop friendships, and we can love a lot more intensly that we ever can hate. That ability alone, the power to love...to care for other humans, to care for animals...in a world where by all the laws of nature we should simply be preditorialy "kill or be killed" is an unnatural thing. a glorious thing. it probably is God. I care for you...WE care for you....though we have never met. How much greater the love is from those who actually get to meet you? Sit. Think. You are loved. You love. That is God.

i can't help but like these threads

they're a great output for peoples thoughts on the subject...if only peeps didn't get so ticked with each other!

it is hard to believe in god, truly believe, i don't even truly believe myself, i'm just guessing really but yeah what i'm saying is that it is hard to believe in god, period. it's hard.

bad things happen to everyone, all the time. no point bringing god into it. he never intervened on anyones behalf before, far as i can see, so if he does exist, i doubt he's gonna start now.

just my two cents worth...

It is only two or three people that get every one ticked off.Yes I have been saying that.

two or three? that's enough.

great minds think alike then!

i do believe she intervenes directly from time to time. perhaps physically for her own reasons, but mostly when she does....i think it's inside us...as comfort, to bring peace, or to help us care or give us hope...or to send us in a direction best for us or others perhaps. Or just to be kind. To help us be kind when we can. There is an anglo singer named Jewel who finishes her song...I think it is "my hands" but am not sure....with the line "in the end.....
only kindness matters".

So true.

Maybe thats why me and zandore get along so well... lol

LBD

i dunno, maybe he/she/it does intervene on some level, my guess is as good as yours. just as far as what i can physically see myself he/she/it doesn't.

VERY TRUE.

*cough*
I think its the ones with the "holier then thou" attitude that get people ticked off...
And I think we know who that would be...

just my opinion...

LBD

Three guesses and the first four don't count.
PS did you read my post a few back with the links?
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