How come when a person dies, 21 grams is lifted from their weight? Don't you find that a little eerie? Lemme hear what you guys and gals have to say!

[quote=wrathofkahn,Jan 9 2005, 03:37 AM]
How come when a person dies, 21 grams is lifted from their weight? Don't you find that a little eerie? Lemme hear what you guys and gals have to say!


Would the air the we breath and the the movement of are organs make up the 24 grams?

no

what about the waste (poop and stuff!) the body expels when someone dies? Does that count?

If NO is it our spirit?

that's what the people that recorded that think it is.

I'd never heard that. What is your source? And please don't send me to some website, list a creditable source.

Here's some info on it.

Not saying I believe it, but it's interesting.



There ya go. There's your explanation.

After having the unfortunate events of having many close friends pass away from all sorts of causes, the weight of the carcass, as I was told by collegues and doctors was that at the time of death (being mainly of natural causes but also any other case) the exact amount of weight in grams lost was 21grams. I find this really creepy and also very intriguing. I don't have any websites, just from my own investigations and knowledge of studies.

Does anyone believe in souls? Not to get religious but I think there is something within our bodies that controls the 90% of our brains. We're like living batteries (matrix ref), producing as much electricity to run ourselves, but also to interfere with our environment. There's a reason why there aren't any beings like us, we are truly a work of art!

The body relieves itself when it dies? I've heard that sometimes gases are released (burps and farts)....

Well not to get too graphic, but yes when someone dies and all of the muscles of the body completely relax things can happen...if they have a full bladder when they are dying it isn't like they would be able to keep holding it...

As far as the 21 grams; my understanding was that the study was done on metal tables(to catch anything that might escape...) that were attached by very precise scales.

IIRC there were either seven or nine deaths that were observed under these conditions; but not all of them produced the 21 gram change at the time of death.

My take on it was that the guy thought he was really onto something, but he could never get the verifiable data to back it up...I will have ot see if I still have the website that has a breakdown of the study where the 21 gram theory comes from...

interesting...I didn't know that they weighed all that "extra" stuff too...eeww.

Well yeah...21 grams is just the weight of about 21 small paperclips, it is a very small amount of weight in comparison to the mass of the human body. If they didn't weigh the...extra stuff there would be big fluctuations in weight...

They would have to get everything to be sure that they could differentiate the 21 grams they were looking for...

My question is...when is the comparison weight taken? I mean...the before weight of someone that is about to die/ to the actual death weight...when is that done?

I don't think the spirit weighs anything... heh.

The study actually had people that were in late stages of different fatal disease who agreed to participate. They were placed on a metal table that was hooked to a very precise scale. Everything that went into or came out of the person was weighed precisely(IV Fluids...)

The person stayed on the table until they died, heart and brain monitors were attached to let the doctors know when a person had passed. There were always on the table from when they were in the last stages of death, until after they were dead.

They were continually taking measurements and compared the last measurements taken when the person was still alive and then compared them to the measurements taken shortly after they passed.

It's the weight of your SOUL.

Have you, in your expert opinion, ever held someone dying? Have you felt the instantaneous loss of weight that happens in the second that changes from life to death? I, unfortunately, have. It's the most horrible, emotionally terrifying thing to hold someone, and then, feel their soul leave the body. It happens in one second flat, not in the long drawn out time you are describing. And this wasn't even with those serious ill in the kind of diseases you are describing. It's their soul leaving, and it happens instantly.

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!!!!
NOW it makes sense....very sad though if you think about it...

But weren't the results varied? That not all changes were the same amount?

You are so right, thats exactly what I was comin to say, anyone ever have a dog die on ya? try carrying him after he dies his bowels relax and atleast 21 grams spill out, , not that I'm saying to check a dead persons draws to back this up but I think Holy D is on the mark here.

By my understanding...no it doesn't. Wasn't this discussed elsewhere, at it was mentioned that the 21 grams actually takes some time (sometimes hours) to leave the body? If that is the case, then it could be explained by any number of things...waste, water evaporation...

Although if Ashley Star Chld has held a lot of dying people, I'm starting to understand why she says a lot of the crazy stuff she does...

Anyway, the results of this study have been known for some time now, and no, there's no reason whatsoever to believe it proves the existance of a soul. The quoted results are often rather vague, and don't go into the specifics of time taken...which probably leads to the myth that the weight loss is absolutely instantanious.

That 'crazy stuff' I talk about is documented in ancient texts. It doesn't come from nowhere.

As I said it happens instantly, and waste explusion, etc, takes longer than the time it takes for a person's soul to be here and gone.

Im sure you have held a person dying and felt 21g disappear. I'm sure.

Ashley, do you spend a lot of time hugging dying people? If so, I would have to wonder if you're a carrier of some kind of fatal disease? More over, I'd have to wonder how on earth you could be so sensative as to be accutely aware of the sudden loss of 20grams from a body...such a weight is negligable. Even the smallest person weights several thousand grams...there's no way you could possibly be aware of the sudden loss

My best guess is that you're fibbing again

wen u die your body gets rid of your excerment (hope i spelt it right but if i didnt im talkin about your number 1s and 2s) and ill say that that would make up the lost mass, pluss your soul is suposed to be energy so i dont think energy weighs ne thing

I remember reading somewhere that energy does have more mass the faster it travels.

E = mc2

I hear when energy approaches the speed of light, the mass increases to near infinity.

I don't think energy has much mass when it's near stationary though. I'd need to look it up to verify...

I quite belive the 21 GRAMS you loose when you die is your soul. I have no edvience, its just my personal beleive.

that is correct, the faster you move the more energy is needed to "push" you, if E gets bigger than that means either M or C has to also get bigger, and because C is a constant that leaves M, meaning M or your mass must increase while your moving, when you heart stops beating, and your lungs stop breathing, ect you are no longer moving, making E go down, meaning M will also go down as C still remains constant, because these things our body does do not take much energy, it is expected the mass differential will also be very small (21g maybe?) my idea on why it takes longer on people than others is because for 1 everyones heart/lungs are different sizes, and everyones heart beats at a different pace and breath in different incriements, and for 2 the process of kinetic energy transfering into potential may take a period of time

This is quite and interesting thread, and I've got a few questions...

If the result is varied, usually larger, than I can believe it is some sort of waste and moisture, ETC. The thing is, people pass on differently, not everyone has the same amount of oxygen in their lungs or the same amount of waste in their bowels.

If the results are the same, a constant 21 grams or maybe give or take 1 gram, I see this as very strange. Like I said before, not everyone has the same amount of things in them, so either something was leaving that weighed 20-22 grams, OR somehow the dead body can still preform actions and is programmed to release exactly this amount for who knows why. Personally I'm leaning towards something weighing 20-22 grams unless someone can give me a credible source that says a greater range of weight. This by no means states that it is the soul, but that is a possibility.

It really surprises me, sometimes, how willing some people are, to believe in something simply because they have never heard of it before, and conclude that no one else must have heard of it either. Has anyone noticed that many of the theories seen on this forum, such as the various "proofs" of creationism, of psychic powers, of ghosts, of all those phenomena that have existed for millenia, are the exact same theories that have been heard and repeated over and over again by every new generation that comes by? For a real phenomena to have such little in the way of variation is astounding. Where are the new accounts? Where are the modern studies?

I would submit that the simply reason these things are still in the general conscious is only because the new generation is so excited at discovering something so beyond mainstream that it dispenses with the simple step of confirmation in the eagerness to proclaim that they have knowledge beyond that that the authority figures over them have. The sole reason these stories continue to exist is simply so that the young can stroke their newly emerging egos concerning their individuality. By holding these alternative theories as trophies, they proudly seperate themselves from a conventional maturity they both envy, yet are too "cool" to express a desire to be a part of.

But I digress. We are talking about the weight of a soul. 21 Grams.

Has anyone bothered to check the credibility? The source?

Almost a full century ago, back in 1907, Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts theorized that the soul was material, and therefore, should be able to be measured at the precise time of death, by comparing the weight of a person still alive to that of a person deceased. His test sample consisted of 6, only six, people. The test bed was, quite literally, a bed, a cot actually, no metal or plastic or anything, set atop a set of scales accurate to 2/10ths of an ounce. For those that would object to such a lack of precision measurement, remember that this was still the turn of the century technology, and the man did the best he could.

So, what were the results? Out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight, two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. To be perfectly frank, the results were haphazard, to say the least. Several problems plagued the study, not the least of which was determining when, exactly, the subject was dead.

He also tried to repeat his experiments on fifteen dogs. I could go into the various problems such a study has, including a ridiculously small representative sample, an inability to remove various factors which could have compromised the experiment, and certain interpretations of results that were...questionable. To be fair, Dr. MacDougall was conducting what he considered a serious scientific study, but he simply didn't do it very well, partly because the technology of the 1900's just wasn't there, partly because scientific methodology in those days wasn't what we consider acceptable today, and partly because...well, he just didn't do a very good job.

Nonetheless, on thing stands perfectly clear. For those arguing against this, there is absolutely no reason to go theorizing on what could have caused a sudden loss of weight in a dead body until such time that it is confirmed that a sudden loss of weight actually occured. For those arguing in favor of this, please consider: You are basing your arguments on a single experiment done once over a century ago, and not even done properly at that. To be frank, the majority of what this thread has contained, such as precision scales, metal beds, IV, and whatnot, all that has been added by rumor and time. This study has become nothing more than an urban legend, and should be accorded only that amount of credibility one gives to such outlandishly exagerated stories.

I invite you to read about the original studies.

Soul Man

Great Moments in Science

The soul, the life force, whatever one wants to call it....does it have weight? That is the question being discussed here. My question is how many tax dollars went into funding this ludicrous experiment.

Well, yes it is ludricous. No matter how many tax dollars went into proving the existence of a soul, and the evidence it provided, some peopel woul still obstinantly refuse to accept it. That's ludicrous.

I don't go around 'hugging dying people', I have been faced with alot of death in my life, something most people don't have to face. And you can guess all you want, the only comeback you have is 'oh she's lying/fibbing' when I say something you can't accept. Grow up.

Even if 21g was lost in everyone, that wouldnt prove that it was the soul. All it would prove is that people loose 21g when they die.



And you held each one of these people... you've actually held them in the air when they died, and you notice a change of 21g?

*wonders*

Say someone can astral project or have an OBE at will, if the body's wieght was recorded during the entire process, would there be any difference of wieght?

That's what I'd like to know. Why don't they do studies on that? There wouldn't be a complete decrease of soul weight because a part of the soul has to remain in the body to stay alive, however, a certain amount of weight reduction may be noticeable.

Why the hell would you hold a dying person in the air? Death isn't exactly a light subject and shouldn't be talked about mockingly.

Ahh, so the dying person was on a bed, and you were holding the person? How do you know that the person got lighter and didnt just rest on the bed?

Some would. But, if the experiment was conducted properly, and could be repeated, and followed all the rules of scientific methodology, it would have to be accepted as credible, if controversial, by the scientific community. Eventually, as the die-hard deniers died off, and a new generation grew with the idea of it in place, along with the preponderance of evidence that would have to be gathered, it would be integrated into popular knowledge.

In this case, unfortunately, the experiment was simply not up to par, and just couldn't pass muster. There just wasn't enough precision or definition.

If a person is in outer space and farts...does that person gain weight? Lose weight? Or does the weight stay the same because after all...the person is in outer space.

there is no weight in outer space, weight is determined by gravity, there is no gravity in outerspace

Very good Seeking!

Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.

In keeping with the weight theme, what weighs more: a pound of feathers, or a pound of gold? (Yes, it is a trick question, and more trivia then funny)

Which would you rather be hit by?

Do I get to keep it after being hit?

Obviously a pound of gold weighs more than a pound of feathers because gold is heavier than feathers.....that being said a pound of poop weighs more than a pound of gold and a pound of chocolate weighs more than a pound of celery..............

If you survive.



Please put a or something in order to show people you're being sarcastic!

Obviously, of course...isn't it?

Gold is heavier then feathers...isn't it?

And a pound of gold is the same as a pound of feathers...isn't it?

What could the answer be?

Goodness, I'm sleepy! I think this thread has well and truly run its course.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that people with less than the 210 IQ level would be reading it.

Hello everyone!

I'm so happy so hear from everyone's responses and questions! This question has plagued me for quite sometime after studying mcdougall's work. Theory is inquiry (educated guess), which is all of what we discuss. But for one moment in our mind's, in every person's life, we can see or sense something greater than ourselves.

Deny it all you want, but we all have a "sixth sense." How can we have soul, how can we not have a soul? What a question! What does the panel say! lol

You are a really smart bunch. The theory of relativity is a unique interscope within the realm of travel and occupancy of space as matter. Anyways, that's very unique thoughts and really made me think more about something leaving our bodies during a human's passing.