Full Version: Why do you lose 21 grams of weight when you die?
Does that mean no one is going to answer my headlight question?
QUOTE(wrathofkahn @ Jan 10 2005, 05:56 AM)
Deny it all you want, but we all have a "sixth sense." How can we have soul, how can we not have a soul? 
What a question! What does the panel say! lol
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What a question! What does the panel say! lol[right][snapback]444107[/snapback][/right]
Oh, I believe in a sixth sense. I just don't consider it scientifically credible. I don't believe in a soul, in the spiritual sense, nor do I consider it scientific. I always make sure to seperate my beliefs from my science. You will never catch me claiming that a "sixth sense" is real.
Joc, obviously you would slow down. After all, why would you turn on your space headlights unless it was in inclement space weather, and why would you barrel along at the regular space speed limit in inclement space weather without applying your space brakes?
Incidentaly, a pound of feathers is indeed heavier than a pound of gold.
maybe I'm totally out of the loop here, but I thought a pound was a pound, no matter what you are weighing. 
so a pound of feathers would weigh the same as a pound of gold... or poop... or celery. a POUND is a unit of weight, not volume, or density... right?? or is this wrong?!
so a pound of feathers would weigh the same as a pound of gold... or poop... or celery. a POUND is a unit of weight, not volume, or density... right?? or is this wrong?!
QUOTE(joc @ Jan 10 2005, 01:09 AM)
Very good Seeking!
Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.
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Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.
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hmm... headlight question... Your headlights would not work in space, youwould not see the light because there is no atmosphere in space toreflect the light and make it visible... right? so I'm guessing you would remain at the same speed.
Has anyone done the loss of weight test in animals?? or has anyone discussed this?? If animals lose a similar amount of weight, what would that mean to the soul believers??
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maybe I'm totally out of the loop here, but I thought a pound was a pound, no matter what you are weighing. huh.gif so a pound of feathers would weigh the same as a pound of gold... or poop... or celery. a POUND is a unit of weight, not volume, or density... right?? or is this wrong?!
Hee hee
A pound is a pound except when it isn't!
Not all pounds are the same. There are actually three different kinds in use today, with others already retired.
A pound of feathers would be measured with what is commonly known as a Metric Pound, which would equal 16 ounces, which is about 453 grams (a little heavier).
A pound of gold, however, is a Precious Metal, and Precious Metals, along with Gems (and, strangely enough, certain drugs) are measured in Troy Pounds (or they used to be. Troy ounces is as high as they go today). A Troy pound is equal to 12 Troy ounces, which is equal to approxiamtly 373 grams.
Therefore, a pound of feathers does indeed weight more than a pound of gold, by about a handful of paperclips. FYI, a Troy pound of gold is about $4,200. Getting hit by it is your choice.
QUOTE(Bizeebutt @ Jan 10 2005, 03:35 PM)
QUOTE(joc @ Jan 10 2005, 01:09 AM)
Very good Seeking!
Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.
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Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.
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hmm... headlight question... Your headlights would not work in space, youwould not see the light because there is no atmosphere in space toreflect the light and make it visible... right? so I'm guessing you would remain at the same speed.
Has anyone done the loss of weight test in animals?? or has anyone discussed this?? If animals lose a similar amount of weight, what would that mean to the soul believers??
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Whether you see the headlights working or not is kind of irrelevant to whether they affect your speed. After all, you don't need to see your brakes in order for them to work.
MacDougal did continue his original experiments with 15 dogs. In a stunning example of self-justification, his absolutely negative results were spun into proof with his declaration that this confirmed his hypothesis, since his personal religious beliefs did not allow for dog's to have souls.
That would imply that a soul weights something, which means that spirits have a part of matter. Thats sounds funny to me. Energy does not weights
QUOTE(sonik @ Jan 10 2005, 07:49 AM)
That would imply that a soul weights something, which means that spirits have a part of matter. Thats sounds funny to me. Energy does not weights
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Who ever said a spirit is energy?
QUOTE(Hailo_hellFIRE @ Jan 10 2005, 04:58 PM)
QUOTE(sonik @ Jan 10 2005, 07:49 AM)
That would imply that a soul weights something, which means that spirits have a part of matter. Thats sounds funny to me. Energy does not weights
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Who ever said a spirit is energy?
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The Japanese...?
QUOTE(Athenian @ Jan 10 2005, 09:06 AM)
QUOTE(Hailo_hellFIRE @ Jan 10 2005, 04:58 PM)
QUOTE(sonik @ Jan 10 2005, 07:49 AM)
That would imply that a soul weights something, which means that spirits have a part of matter. Thats sounds funny to me. Energy does not weights
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Who ever said a spirit is energy?
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The Japanese...?
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Did they truely say that? Well, they are Buddhists...I am Christian, big difference there about the view points in a spirit.
This could be a possible answer, having nothing to do with your soul...
when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
QUOTE(Me_Again @ Jan 10 2005, 05:22 PM)
This could be a possible answer, having nothing to do with your soul...
when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
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when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
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Yes more than, but not precisely...
I think that is the mystery they are trying to solve.
QUOTE(wrathofkahn @ Jan 9 2005, 02:37 AM)
How come when a person dies, 21 grams is lifted from their weight? Don't you find that a little eerie? Lemme hear what you guys and gals have to say!
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To have a weight, it has to have a mass and be physical, but when most people talk about "soul" they talk about the spiritual/non-physical(!!) part that is "I".
This cannot weigh 21 grams since it's not physical....
Isn't that logical?
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Jan 9 2005, 11:13 AM)
It really surprises me, sometimes, how willing some people are, to believe in something simply because they have never heard of it before, and conclude that no one else must have heard of it either. Has anyone noticed that many of the theories seen on this forum, such as the various "proofs" of creationism, of psychic powers, of ghosts, of all those phenomena that have existed for millenia, are the exact same theories that have been heard and repeated over and over again by every new generation that comes by? For a real phenomena to have such little in the way of variation is astounding. Where are the new accounts? Where are the modern studies?
I would submit that the simply reason these things are still in the general conscious is only because the new generation is so excited at discovering something so beyond mainstream that it dispenses with the simple step of confirmation in the eagerness to proclaim that they have knowledge beyond that that the authority figures over them have. The sole reason these stories continue to exist is simply so that the young can stroke their newly emerging egos concerning their individuality. By holding these alternative theories as trophies, they proudly seperate themselves from a conventional maturity they both envy, yet are too "cool" to express a desire to be a part of.
But I digress. We are talking about the weight of a soul. 21 Grams.
Has anyone bothered to check the credibility? The source?
Almost a full century ago, back in 1907, Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts theorized that the soul was material, and therefore, should be able to be measured at the precise time of death, by comparing the weight of a person still alive to that of a person deceased. His test sample consisted of 6, only six, people. The test bed was, quite literally, a bed, a cot actually, no metal or plastic or anything, set atop a set of scales accurate to 2/10ths of an ounce. For those that would object to such a lack of precision measurement, remember that this was still the turn of the century technology, and the man did the best he could.
So, what were the results? Out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight, two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. To be perfectly frank, the results were haphazard, to say the least. Several problems plagued the study, not the least of which was determining when, exactly, the subject was dead.
He also tried to repeat his experiments on fifteen dogs. I could go into the various problems such a study has, including a ridiculously small representative sample, an inability to remove various factors which could have compromised the experiment, and certain interpretations of results that were...questionable. To be fair, Dr. MacDougall was conducting what he considered a serious scientific study, but he simply didn't do it very well, partly because the technology of the 1900's just wasn't there, partly because scientific methodology in those days wasn't what we consider acceptable today, and partly because...well, he just didn't do a very good job.
Nonetheless, on thing stands perfectly clear. For those arguing against this, there is absolutely no reason to go theorizing on what could have caused a sudden loss of weight in a dead body until such time that it is confirmed that a sudden loss of weight actually occured. For those arguing in favor of this, please consider: You are basing your arguments on a single experiment done once over a century ago, and not even done properly at that. To be frank, the majority of what this thread has contained, such as precision scales, metal beds, IV, and whatnot, all that has been added by rumor and time. This study has become nothing more than an urban legend, and should be accorded only that amount of credibility one gives to such outlandishly exagerated stories.
I invite you to read about the original studies.
Soul Man
Great Moments in Science
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I would submit that the simply reason these things are still in the general conscious is only because the new generation is so excited at discovering something so beyond mainstream that it dispenses with the simple step of confirmation in the eagerness to proclaim that they have knowledge beyond that that the authority figures over them have. The sole reason these stories continue to exist is simply so that the young can stroke their newly emerging egos concerning their individuality. By holding these alternative theories as trophies, they proudly seperate themselves from a conventional maturity they both envy, yet are too "cool" to express a desire to be a part of.
But I digress. We are talking about the weight of a soul. 21 Grams.
Has anyone bothered to check the credibility? The source?
Almost a full century ago, back in 1907, Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts theorized that the soul was material, and therefore, should be able to be measured at the precise time of death, by comparing the weight of a person still alive to that of a person deceased. His test sample consisted of 6, only six, people. The test bed was, quite literally, a bed, a cot actually, no metal or plastic or anything, set atop a set of scales accurate to 2/10ths of an ounce. For those that would object to such a lack of precision measurement, remember that this was still the turn of the century technology, and the man did the best he could.
So, what were the results? Out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight, two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. To be perfectly frank, the results were haphazard, to say the least. Several problems plagued the study, not the least of which was determining when, exactly, the subject was dead.
He also tried to repeat his experiments on fifteen dogs. I could go into the various problems such a study has, including a ridiculously small representative sample, an inability to remove various factors which could have compromised the experiment, and certain interpretations of results that were...questionable. To be fair, Dr. MacDougall was conducting what he considered a serious scientific study, but he simply didn't do it very well, partly because the technology of the 1900's just wasn't there, partly because scientific methodology in those days wasn't what we consider acceptable today, and partly because...well, he just didn't do a very good job.
Nonetheless, on thing stands perfectly clear. For those arguing against this, there is absolutely no reason to go theorizing on what could have caused a sudden loss of weight in a dead body until such time that it is confirmed that a sudden loss of weight actually occured. For those arguing in favor of this, please consider: You are basing your arguments on a single experiment done once over a century ago, and not even done properly at that. To be frank, the majority of what this thread has contained, such as precision scales, metal beds, IV, and whatnot, all that has been added by rumor and time. This study has become nothing more than an urban legend, and should be accorded only that amount of credibility one gives to such outlandishly exagerated stories.
I invite you to read about the original studies.
Soul Man
Great Moments in Science
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Very well said, and I mean VERY. Since this is the case and I find it to be a credible one and a highly possible one -- something not rather cheesy and faked -- I'm going to keep an open mind, BUT, I believe that it is either escaping air, moisture, bowel movements, or the like. If the soul does exist, I highly doubt that a small mass of energy that was in everyone would weigh any different, so I'm going to say this has nothing to do with the soul and heavy skeptics and believers have mingled with one another and distorted the real theory and testing. I urge you to prove me wrong.
im going to go ahead and say yes that you do slow down when you turn your headlights on in outerspace because the photons emitted from the light push back on your car due to the "kick back"and because of the no friction in space you will be decelerated
QUOTE(Athenian @ Jan 10 2005, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE(Me_Again @ Jan 10 2005, 05:22 PM)
This could be a possible answer, having nothing to do with your soul...
when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
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when you die, all of your bodily fluids come out. If someone bled to death wouldn't they loose more than 21 grams of weight ?
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Yes more than, but not precisely...
I think that is the mystery they are trying to solve.
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What do you mean precisely? 21 grams was never a precise weight. It isn't even an average. Read the links I posted. Of the six people MacDougal tested, five have to be eliminated as unverifiable. The only one left measured approximately 3/4 of an ounce, being 21.3 grams. 21 grams is not a precise measure of anything. It is not the result of any sort of scientific testing. 21 grams is nothing more than the remaining result of a series of urban legends based around some supposed super scientificaly accurate experiment that was based on a guy measuring dead people on a cot on top of some scales nearly a hundred years ago, at the turn of the century.
Seriously, there is absolutely nothing significant or supportable about 21 grams.
Well, If someone died in a weightless environment, it would be difficult to determine a change in weight. If we can, then why does 21 grams just disappear? And if we can't, well, I guess it's just a gravity thing. It is true you relive yourself after you die, that's why they plug people's butts up before they are executed (lethal injection). Of course, I would secretly remove the plug during the procedure....sweet black revenge.... 
Steering clear of the sick, disturbing, and mocking image of death that I have sarcastitcally portrayed, I say that the soul is not physical and has no weight. If anyone has the bright idea to go up into the space station and kill somebody, then please tell us the results.
Steering clear of the sick, disturbing, and mocking image of death that I have sarcastitcally portrayed, I say that the soul is not physical and has no weight. If anyone has the bright idea to go up into the space station and kill somebody, then please tell us the results.
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Steering clear of the sick, disturbing, and mocking image of death that I have sarcastitcally portrayed, I say that the soul is not physical and has no weight. If anyone has the bright idea to go up into the space station and kill somebody, then please tell us the results.
Ah, so the next question is: If you are in outer space and you die...do you lose weight, gain weight, or.......no, wait that is the same as if you fart in outer space...never mind.
Weight = mg. If there is no gravity, there is no weight. It doesn't matter what your mass is, even if you gain or lose some. If you try to measure weight with no gravity, you'll come up with 0.
IE: (Any value of mass) * 0 =0
Simple as that
IE: (Any value of mass) * 0 =0
Simple as that
The soul permits itself to travel through time and space without being noticed, there is no weight to something we cannot measure. It's beyond our comprehension.
Whether or not we lose 21 grams of weight after death, I find everyone's foresight to be correct. In the end we are all alone and only the "afterlife" witholds the true answers. To believe that there is no hereafter (whatever you may believe it is or isn't) is truly an underestimation on what we are...
Weight is just a measurement of what we are in the here and now, the mind is what seperates us. I believe we lose 21 grams after we die. I've seen many death's in my time and have had the opportunity to see the weight variations from many people. It's scary to see such close variations to the "21 grams." Unfortunately it's not exactly 21 grams each time. It's an estimation from 15 to 35 grams. Maybe there are different sizes of "souls" exhasperating, but to my current standpoint and knowledge, it's always going to be a mystery...
Whether or not we lose 21 grams of weight after death, I find everyone's foresight to be correct. In the end we are all alone and only the "afterlife" witholds the true answers. To believe that there is no hereafter (whatever you may believe it is or isn't) is truly an underestimation on what we are...
Weight is just a measurement of what we are in the here and now, the mind is what seperates us. I believe we lose 21 grams after we die. I've seen many death's in my time and have had the opportunity to see the weight variations from many people. It's scary to see such close variations to the "21 grams." Unfortunately it's not exactly 21 grams each time. It's an estimation from 15 to 35 grams. Maybe there are different sizes of "souls" exhasperating, but to my current standpoint and knowledge, it's always going to be a mystery...
I work with the dead almost on a nightly basis. Scientifically (sp), the body does lose moisture after death. The rise in body temperature that someone posted about, is called algor mortis. Not everyone experiences that. Not everyone expels body waste when they die. Most do not expel gases until a certain amount of time. The body has to fill with the gaseous waste from bacteria before expelling it. When the human body dies it start a process called autolysis. It means that the cells start breaking down by their components. It starts with simple components like water and works it way down to more complex like proteins. This process can start immediately. The body will lose weight from this. Now, how much and over what time period. I dunno. I'm sure that there are several factors that could vary on that one. I myself have carried and moved more deceased people than I can count. I don't believe after the first 100 lbs., you will notice a change in 21 grams. You are too busy trying to get to where ever you need to be going with that person. As far as it being the release of a spirit, who knows? Why does it matter. If it leaves as quickly as some have suggested, how are you going to catch it, or stop it? What will you be able to do about all this in the long run? 100 yrs from now, people still mostly likely not be able to figure it out. I'm sure by then also, they won't be able to do anything about what causes it, (why would they), if they did find the reason for the loss of 21 grams. We have children starving everyday all over the place. If you are going to do something and worry that much about things. Put that effort and worry into helping something that can be helped. Ot better yet, collect the 21 grams from all the studies on this junk and spread the weight around to all the little starving children. 
wow, interesting morticia.
i'll add what i know from personal experience.
i've never heard of this 21 gram thing, but back in my clinical days in the hospital, it was our job as nurses to clean and bag the bodies of those that died on the ward during our shift.
i will never forget the first one. the person had died just before i began my shift, the family had been into to view the body, and now we had to clean and bag before sending the body to the morgue.
there were feces expelled, this had to be cleaned, so the other nurse i was with, asked me to roll the body on it's side so she could clean up. as i tilted the body to me, i heard "aaaaah" for about two seconds.
i almost dropped the body and ran, the other nurse i was with had done this a hundred times and she just smiled and told me that was the last of the air in the lungs now being expelled, because we were the first to move the body since death. it had been about 3 hrs at that point.
since that first deceased person, i have taken care of a deceased (that sounds a little weird to put it like that) body numerous times.
as morticia stated, sometimes there is waste, either urine or feces, or no waste at all. sometimes all the air has escaped, and sometimes when you go to move the body the air escapes then.
21 grams? dunno. my only guess would be that it is most of the air in the lungs escaping and all the alveoli in the lungs collapsing, but then that doesn't make much sense as people have different lung capacities.
does a soul weigh 21 grams?
i'll add what i know from personal experience.
i've never heard of this 21 gram thing, but back in my clinical days in the hospital, it was our job as nurses to clean and bag the bodies of those that died on the ward during our shift.
i will never forget the first one. the person had died just before i began my shift, the family had been into to view the body, and now we had to clean and bag before sending the body to the morgue.
there were feces expelled, this had to be cleaned, so the other nurse i was with, asked me to roll the body on it's side so she could clean up. as i tilted the body to me, i heard "aaaaah" for about two seconds.
i almost dropped the body and ran, the other nurse i was with had done this a hundred times and she just smiled and told me that was the last of the air in the lungs now being expelled, because we were the first to move the body since death. it had been about 3 hrs at that point.
since that first deceased person, i have taken care of a deceased (that sounds a little weird to put it like that) body numerous times.
as morticia stated, sometimes there is waste, either urine or feces, or no waste at all. sometimes all the air has escaped, and sometimes when you go to move the body the air escapes then.
21 grams? dunno. my only guess would be that it is most of the air in the lungs escaping and all the alveoli in the lungs collapsing, but then that doesn't make much sense as people have different lung capacities.
does a soul weigh 21 grams?
The air in the lungs doesnt measure up to 21 grams.
Very good point Morticia
Also, I believe (from what my science teacher told me), that gravity is never fully gone. I mean, in space, you aren't fully weightless, but the weight is just so tiny that its not recognizable.
And why wouldn't energy weigh anything? After, isn't everything effectly energy? (I believe someone said that energy doesn't way anything), But, according to a video I watched in science class, on bikers, energy does weigh something. When you sweat, you lose very tiny amounts of weight as the heat leaves your body.
Also, I believe (from what my science teacher told me), that gravity is never fully gone. I mean, in space, you aren't fully weightless, but the weight is just so tiny that its not recognizable.
And why wouldn't energy weigh anything? After, isn't everything effectly energy? (I believe someone said that energy doesn't way anything), But, according to a video I watched in science class, on bikers, energy does weigh something. When you sweat, you lose very tiny amounts of weight as the heat leaves your body.
21 grams=electrical energy released when dead=soul.
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21 grams=electrical energy released when dead=soul.
Not a chance the electrical energy weighs 21 grams.
Ashley, can you tell us more about what you were saying earlier about your experiences regarding this matter?
QUOTE(wrathofkahn @ Jan 8 2005, 10:37 PM)
How come when a person dies, 21 grams is lifted from their weight? Don't you find that a little eerie? Lemme hear what you guys and gals have to say!
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As I recall, this study was too inaccurate to be conclusive. The only three places I've seen this published were "The Weekly World News" and "The National Sun" (both US tabloids), and Pravda (once the Soviet news agency, now they just make things up to get readership). The Weekly World News even published a follow up saying that the same study shows the soul resides in a tiny hollow spot in the sternum.
This is discussed on Snopes (a site many more people should read):
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp
The conclusion paragraph:
---quote---
What to make of all this? MacDougall's results were flawed because the methodology used to harvest them was suspect, the sample size far too small, and the ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams. His postulations on this topic are a curiousity, but nothing more.
---end-quote---
Which part Walken, on this thread?
I didn't even jnow they lost weight when people die!!!! Oh well!
It's the 'ultimate' diet plan emily. ;D
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How come when a person dies, 21 grams is lifted from their weight?
Somebody nicks their jewellery
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