source

Decades ago, it was physicist Enrico Fermi who pondered the issue of extraterrestrial civilizations with fellow theorists over lunch, generating the famous quip: "Where are they?" That question later became central to debates about the cosmological census count of other star folk and possible extraterrestrial (ET) visitors from afar.

Fermi’s brooding on the topic was later labeled "Fermi’s paradox". It is a well-traveled tale from the 1950’s when the scientist broached the subject in discussions with colleagues in Los Alamos, New Mexico. Thoughts regarding the probability of earthlike planets, the rise of highly advanced civilizations "out there", and interstellar travel -- these remain fodder for trying to respond to Fermi’s paradox even today.

There is plenty more to read, Link above

Quite long, I really hope that we get to find aliens, no matter what type... I just really would like to see aliens of any kind

They're already here and have been.

Hah, the times, they are a changing. If it is evidence they want, they have to look no further than the classic The Humanoids, edited by my old buddy, Charles Bowen. There are extensive quotes in my E-book, "The Secret of Interstellar Travel," see below, still under construction. Come back in a week or two.

BTW, anyone know of Charles Bowen's address or whereabouts? I would really like to put the whole book on-line, but would like to have permission from him or his heirs. Actually, the copyright in 1969 is to Neville Spearman, of the Neville Spearman Press. Anyone know anything about him?

BTW, Fermi's Paradox is really the hinge point in my book. Only worshippers on the alter of Stoidi have any doubts about the reality of UFOs. The Stoidi are what Galileo called "the extraordinarily stupid." Please understand, I mean academics, not anyone in this forum. Maybe things are about to change, though.

So the real question is not whether UFOs exist as star-traveling humanoids, since that was proven long ago, in a dusty book, long out of print, and not in your local library, or any other library. The real problem is Fermi's Paradox. Why didn't they colonize Earth anytime in the past 1.5 billion years, when we have had oxygen, water and dry land?

Well, obviously ETs do not behave like us. They don't have wars, murder or violence of any kind. They don't rape and pillage their own planets, wrecking the ecological systems their own species require, as we do. In other words, they have evolved spiritually, to a point where their only interest in us is as anthropologists. And anthropologists never alter the course of the primitive cultures they study. So don't expect them to save us, colonize us, contact us in any official capacity or engage in trade. Thus, they pose no danger, and should not be considered either saviors or enemies.

I hope I don't get hacked for posting here.

Yes they have been visiting for hundreds of thousands of years and will continue to do so.

Whatever. No physical proof. Just your faith. Mainstream scientist do not support any such thing.

Hey Ericraven,

What constitutes to you physical proof? A news conference and government announcement we now have proof? Are you that naive? There has been a government cover up on UFOs for over fifty years. The U.S. government's own documents (not MJ12) clearly show this. Many retired military personel have gone on record about sightings and the cover up in general. When you put the pieces of the puzzle together it's really rather obvious the Earth has been and is being visited. You're the typical skeptic. My mind is made up and I don't have time to study any and all fabricated stories or data no matter where it originates. Wake up and smell the coffe Buddy!

Waterjet

What about all the cave paintings from 40,000-50,000 years ago, Look around at some web sites if you don't think that there is any proof. Scientists may not want to accept that we might have been visited but there are signs from all over the world that we have and the sitings continue today.

That is goofy. Believe all the fanastay you want. How about I write up a few documents? You would believe them too. Documents and cave paintings prove nothing. Give me alien landing on my lawn. Then I will believe. Both of you sound desperate to believe anything.

Would you really believe if a UFO landed on your front yard? Would you believe what scientists say?

Dear Readers,

The above comments by Ericraven demonstrate to a "T" the skeptic that says don't bother me with any facts or data because my mind is made up. I guarantee you he has never studied the subject and knows little or nothing about it. These types never take the time to educate themselves on the subject. Their comments or replies never contain any substance as illustrated by Ericraven. What a joke!

Waterjet

The proof of alien visitation is us- the human race....

All of you at your computers now, take a look around you and at yourselves, and ask yourself a tough question: Are we truly an endemic life form to this planet? If we are, why can't we exist in harmony with our environment?

Why do we wear clothes (hopefully most of you are clothed right now or you would be on a different web page)? Why do we need them, when we should have evolved with natural defences against the naturally inclement weather?

Why do we raze the earth to build artificial structures, why does technological advancement automatically go hand in hand with evolutionary advancement? Is our grand technology merely a survival reaction to protect us against a planet that we have no evolutionary business belonging on?

War, pollution, and other psychotic things we do are the most obvious signs, but you need look no further at your own surroundings. Don't think I am preaching, because I have made no sacrifices under the banner of what I am saying, but why are we seemingly evolving further away from Natural Order? That is certainly not advancement, it is reactionist suicide.

Perhaps we are unconciously trying to terraform Earth to reconcile it to our liking?

The Earth was not intended for us- we were placed here. The "Missing Link" anthropology has been in search of is a wide chasm that looks as if it will never be filled.

Just some thoughts...

Thats an interesting view metatron.

I dont think that because there isnt scientific proof it doesnt exist. Years ago science didnt support that lightning was a natural part of te earth, people thought it was God angry at them. And once upon a time the thought of airplanes and people flying was a complete joke. My point is we never really know what could happen in the future.

Thats based no assumption.



Im sorry, but no, its not been proven.



They've been telling me your wrong.





It supports the possibility.



Which oddly cant be confirmed, due to either their being fake, or the cover up being too good.



Many have been saying theres cover up in general. Less have come out saying that the cover up is covering up the existance of UFOs.. Those that come on saying so, oddly, cant be confirmed because again, either they're lying, or the cover up is too good. Take Lazars example. You cant find his name on any records... you cant even confirm he worked for the US government like he says he does. What does he attribute this to? They deleted his name in order to discredit him. Its possible. But so is the other alternative: He is lying. Since theres a very real possibility of either one being true, its not proof simply because you want to believe one of the possibilities over the other.



It may be "obvious" to some. It may "look like it" to many.... but again, thats not proof. To many, it was obvious that the Earth was flat.



I know. You shouldnt have that attitude. You need to open ur mind to the very real possibility that you're wrong in claiming that your belief has been proven.



While those ARE intriguing (Some of them at least... the clearer ones), they dont constitute proof. We have StarTrek and StarWars and other science fiction movies and novels, dont we?



You think all scientists are out to disprove aliens?

It may be a joke, but not a funny one. The punch line is: You're the one claiming that anyone who doesnt share your belief is uninformed on the subject and has not researched the subject. You're the punch line.



Umm... who says that only unnatural life would damage the environment? Hell, all you need is a sh** load of, take your pick, a dinosaur or something, which outnumbers the needed number of plants, and there you go, global warming would slowely occure due to a buildup in CO2 in the atmosphere, if the plants werent capable or there wasnt enough of them, to convert it to O2.

The difference is that now, we use technology which has a sideeffect of producing pollutants, which I'd bet a lot of alien species, if they've passed a certain technological point, would have caused also.



You havent noticed that people have body hair? For a long time, people didnt wear clothes... if you look at certain cavemen pictures, you can see that by the way they drew the... lower... area.



We can live perfectly fine without technology, but its easier to do so with technology. I also dont see how technological advancement goes hand in hand with evolutionary advancement...



No... its evolution. The animals around us have all certain abilities that permit them to survive. Some have strength, some have speed, that sort of stuff. We have intellect. The intellect permitted us to gain knowledge and build tools (Which some crow have begun doing in a primitive way also) and our tools advanced. Now we are moulding our environment to suit us.



If only you could prove that now that you have said its true... that would be good...



You're right.... but if theres no scientific proof... theres no scientific proof. Something isnt proven unless it has proof. If it doesnt have proof, its not proven.

I was an archaeology major in college before I was married and decided the travel would disrupt my family. In Anthropology 101, the very first day of class, my professor said:

"Human Evolution is a theory that will never be proven as fact."

I will never forget that....

I think the onus is on science to prove that we did evolve from Neaderthals (now recently proven in the last two years to have no connection to us) or Cro Magnon man.

I offer you no proof that we did not evolve from these species. I need only to point out the fact that so far there has been no proof provided that we did, from a scientific body that is most desperate to do so .

I understand your point that an overpopulation of any species could cause catastrophe. My point is that Natural Order would step in and make corrections, either by disease or starvation. The effects on the environment from this "natural damage" (dinosaurs overeating) is arguably no damage at all. It is easily rectified by the natural recovery of the ecosystem. The damage I refer to as coming from a potentially "un-natural species" is things like Benzine, DDT, Depleted Uranium and other toxic waste for which the eco system has no way of rectifying.

My point is that the Human Race has an inherent need to defy that Natural Order and to fight it in the name of progress. Why? I am simply exploring that we could be dealing with a global neurosis regarding this.

I am sure other alien races have dealt with this problem. Hopefully, they have learned the lessons that we are only begininng to and have truly "Advanced"

Yes, I do notice I have body hair and actually have more than most men. My point was is that it is vestigial and offers very little in the way of insulation that a coat of fur would.

You seem to respond to my statement regarding us moving away from Natural Order is indeed evolution. In my opinion that is an oxymoron. Evolution and the Natural Order are the same thing. An endemic species would not evolve out of the Natural Order and try to change its environment this drastically to suit it, since it would not have the instinct and drive to do so.

look forward to your response and I appreciate your debate.

At the turn of the century sci-fi writers was writing about going to the moon and going around the world underwater in nuclear powered submersible, Yesterdays sci-fi todays reality, todays sci-fi tomorrows reality.

Stellar,

I never claimed that anyone that doesn't share my belief is uninformed on the subject. That's your take. If you go back and read Ericraven's reply to what I was addressing even you may clearly see my point. Many skeptics here have not studied the subject and that is obvious from reading their posts. They don't discuss any substance because they have no knowledge of the subject. So what we get are statements like Ericravens...." That's Goofy ....etc... Well go back and read it again and maybe you'll understand my point.

Waterjet

Actually water jet, I have been reading books on ufo's since I was 10. I am 33 years old now. I have read an incredible amount of information on ufo's. Nothing has convinced me that it is real. I am open to the possiblity, but I require proof and not circumstanital proof.How old are you waterjet? You seem blinded by your faith in ufos.

You amuse me oh young one. I asked you earlier what constitutes proof and your lame response was a UFO landing in your front yard. Of course any documents are all phoney to you. Any eyewitness testimony by many well respected military personel and thousands by pilots means nothing to you. Hey, your birth certificate is a document and I bet that's suspect going by your rules. Yes, and what books have you read and do you have in your personal library? I would bet none. Are you familiar with Robert Dean and his military service at SHAPE and his testimony on The Assesment ? Have you read Stan Friedman's Book Top Secret? Have you read Kevin Randles book The October Scenario? Have you read Project Bluebook Special Report 14? Have you read The MIT UFO Conference? Of course your easy answer is to say yes! I suspect sir you have read and studied very little on the subject of UFOs. You're posts clearly give you away.

Waterjet

Maybe you can explain what hundreds of highly trained pilots both civilian and military, astronauts and cosmonauts, civilian and military police, even Clergy have seen in the sky and in what could have been your front yard? All these and more are very respected people in their community. You just did not have the luck to have one land there.
PS He is a young one.

Just because you see a light in sky does not make it exterastial in nature. Get a grip. Young one. I am 33, what are you 13.lol

If you want to learn: read and weep That is if you are old enough to learn.
PS. I have a son that is almost your age, So yes you are young. Be thankful

If you want to start flaming and being an as*ho*e. I can start as well. It still comes down to no scientific proof. Zealot.

Not any more than you.

You see once again you prove my earlier points. You deal with no substance for you are uninformed on the subject. Read my earlier posts dealing with this. For now I shall waste no more more of my time responding to your lack of substance.

Waterjet

Well, if its true, it could eventually be proven provided that information is not lost.



Well, again, science has already supported evolution enough to make it a valid theory. Its not saying that evolution is a fact, it wouldnt make that conclusion blindly. You, however, are challenging science, so its up to you to prove that your belief is more valid than evolution.



Science is not "desperate to do so" at all. Why would you think that?



I must have misunderstood you then, because I was under the impression that you were saying that we were placed here by aliens/whatever and evolution isnt true simply because we hurt the environment.



Yes, but at one time it was most likely stronger and provided enough insulation for the environment at the time.

And actually, if you look at the Bonobo, it doesnt seem to have much hair...
http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/gifs/bonobo.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...6lr%3D%26sa%3DG

But it manages to deal with its environment with that.



Not really. We simply took our intellect to greater levels to suit us. The whole point is to be the best of the best... sometimes that envolves destruction... destruction of the weaker. To eat, we have to kill. We dont peacefully coexist.

[quote]

Yes, and you're saying that he is a "typical skeptic" who "hasnt done his research" why? Because he said something you dont agree with.



Well, they dont constitute proof...



Mass sightings are usually of UFOs and not aliens. Respected military personel? Most of the "military personel" that mention aliens have their identity supressed. WHen they dont, they still cant be confirmed. You cant have a bunch of independant sources with no one to back up their claims and dismiss the posibility that maybe they're not telling the truth. Pilots? How many pilots come out and say "I saw an alien flying beside me!"?



Im familiar with the lunar anomolies... however, its still not proven.

All the skeptics ask: "Where's the proof?"
Well, I ask the skeptics: "Where's the proof these aliens don't exist?"
I am sorry but I have no patience with close-minded people. I bet that there are aliens out there pondering our existence. Scientists tell us that the Universe goes on forever. It is idiotic to think that we are the only intelligent life. Humans are so stupid sometimes.

It is not on the sceptic to prove anything. You are the ones putting forth a fantastical theory with no hard facts.

[quote=Stellar,Jan 19 2005, 08:28 PM]
[quote]I never claimed that anyone that doesn't share my belief is uninformed on the subject. That's your take. If you go back and read Ericraven's reply to what I was addressing even you may clearly see my point. Many skeptics here have not studied the subject and that is obvious from reading their posts. They don't discuss any substance because they have no knowledge of the subject. So what we get are statements like Ericravens...." That's Goofy ....etc... Well go back and read it again and maybe you'll understand my point.
[/quote]

Yes, and you're saying that he is a "typical skeptic" who "hasnt done his research" why? Because he said something you dont agree with.
____________________________________________________________________
One last time Steller , try to stay with me here! I say he is a typical skeptic in the sense that he lacks any substance in his comments which to me shows he can't debate any issues for he has no knowlege of them. Don't bother me with any facts
or data as my mind is made up = a typical skeptic. Just imagine Ericraven in a debate.....Ah that's just goofy !! I suspect he would score few points.

Waterjet

I don't need to say much. You have no points that can be proved scientifically . So their is nothing to debate little man.

Wheres the proof that an invisible pink elephant doesnt exist on my front lawn? Does that mean I should believe in the invisible pink elephant, because theres no proof it doesnt exist?



Its not idiotic, nor is it closed minded, to think that aliens arent proven to exist, because they arent.



How'd you get that out of him though? Because he said he disagreed with you?

[quote]One last time Steller , try to stay with me here! I say he is a typical skeptic in the sense that he lacks any substance in his comments which to me shows he can't debate any issues for he has no knowlege of them. Don't bother me with any facts
or data as my mind is made up = a typical skeptic. Just imagine Ericraven in a debate.....Ah that's just goofy !! I suspect he would score few points.
[/quote]

How'd you get that out of him though? Because he said he disagreed with you?
[right][snapback]456551[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

By reading his posts! I covered this in the above quote.

Waterjet

[quote=Cebrakon,Jan 18 2005, 03:49 AM]
[quote=whoa182,Jan 17 2005, 09:10 AM]source


Well, obviously ETs do not behave like us. They don't have wars, murder or violence of any kind. They don't rape and pillage their own planets, wrecking the ecological systems their own species require, as we do. In other words, they have evolved spiritually, to a point where their only interest in us is as anthropologists. And anthropologists never alter the course of the primitive cultures they study. So don't expect them to save us, colonize us, contact us in any official capacity or engage in trade. Thus, they pose no danger, and should not be considered either saviors or enemies.

I hope I don't get hacked for posting here.

[right][snapback]454317[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

It's not about them contacting us, it's about us as individuals conacting them. How, this might finally be the doorway to some proof about psi abilities. What has comebefore, will soon come after. Remember the saying, if your on the path, your destined to meet them, don't be afraid of them, because in reality were all the same, all looking for the same thing. God, allah, buddha or whomever. I view atheists as good people now awadays, i believe there letting go of religion, now which has let them explore themselves and other's around them. Both terrans and terrestials:D. Hope i made sense. If we were meant to fly, we'd have wings, but instead we have to use dumb airplanes.

Craven, do you know what constitutes scientific proof? It is not acceptance by the establishment; otherwise, we would have to say Galileo and Kepler proved nothing. No, it was stated very well by Sherlock Holmes: "When you have eliminated the alternatives, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." In the landed occupant cases, we can exclude all the known alternatives, such as swamp gas, secret military craft, Venus, atmospheric inversions, Jungian archetypes and so forth. Ergo, scientific proof. Proof is not the same as acceptance.

[quote=malakiem,Jan 19 2005, 04:51 PM]
[quote=Cebrakon,Jan 18 2005, 03:49 AM]
[quote=whoa182,Jan 17 2005, 09:10 AM]source


Well, obviously ETs do not behave like us. They don't have wars, murder or violence of any kind. They don't rape and pillage their own planets, wrecking the ecological systems their own species require, as we do. In other words, they have evolved spiritually, to a point where their only interest in us is as anthropologists. And anthropologists never alter the course of the primitive cultures they study. So don't expect them to save us, colonize us, contact us in any official capacity or engage in trade. Thus, they pose no danger, and should not be considered either saviors or enemies.

I hope I don't get hacked for posting here.

[right][snapback]454317[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


It's not about them contacting us, it's about us as individuals conacting them. How, this might finally be the doorway to some proof about psi abilities. What has comebefore, will soon come after. Remember the saying, if your on the path, your destined to meet them, don't be afraid of them, because in reality were all the same, all looking for the same thing. God, allah, buddha or whomever. I view atheists as good people now awadays, i believe there letting go of religion, now which has let them explore themselves and other's around them. Both terrans and terrestials:D. Hope i made sense. If we were meant to fly, we'd have wings, but instead we have to use dumb airplanes.
[right][snapback]456572[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Very perceptive Malakien. Indeed, the subjects of Ufos and of Psi are not so different or unrelated. UFOs appear and disappear. This looks like teleportation, a power of the mind, not of technology. UFOs ghost silently over the countryside, under the radar. By the way, I have seen one, doing just that, about 200 feet above me, traveling perhaps 15 mph. This looks like levitation, another power of the mind. As an expert on physics and space technology, I can tell you that physics and technology offer no means of star-travel. But the UFOs are here. By process of elimination, they must be able to teleport hundreds of lightyears in an instant, and they must be able to levitate huge space-ships (some are huge, many are quite tiny). I think you make sense, Malakien. It is only by letting go of religion that we can begin to study Psi and spirituality. By the way, this is the solution to Fermi's paradox. Only the spiritually advanced species can develop Psi powers to such an enormous degree.
Cebrakon

We also have to have an open mind so we can look at things from a different angle and see even more possibilitys.



Maybe we have a nose on our face after all.

I think I will add my .02 cents here. Any civilization advanced enough for interstellar travel is, at least from our perspective, so advanced that their technology would probably seem Godlike to us humans. If they so desired they could help the human race out of its misery with hardly having to lift a cosmic finger.
I have my doubts about the idea of compasionate, omniscient, omnipotent, enlightened and benevolent aliens for the same reason I have my doubts about such a God. Any truly empathetic, moral, and enlightened civilization or being that could help us would. It would realize how bad it is to allow any conscious being to die. Therefore, I doubt that a civilization that is so enlighened has reached our planet.
I do believe there is a strong possibility that some civilization has been here or is here, and we can glean a bit of understanding as to their intentions by taking into account their actions, or lack thereof, so far. Another important thing to consider is the fact that a civilization so advanced that wanted to wipe us out, or take over the planet, could have almost effortlessly done so. It would not be like some stupid science fiction movie where they come and blow us up with ray guns. All they would have to do is engineer a virus that wipes out most or all of us and they would have the earth to themselves. We are almost advanced enough to do this to ourselves now.
Do they want us for our resources, or to use us as food, or to make us into slaves? The answer is obviously no. I believe if they have technology avanced enough to get here, they have technology that is far more efficient than a human slave would be(i.e. robots). Same with food supply, they can probably bioenginneer or nano enginneer any food they need. If they have a spaceship powerful enough to get here then they certainly do not need our oil.
My conclusion? They either don't care about us humans, or they are sadistic and we are some sort of fun experiment for them. Or they all just decided long ago to sit home and play Everquest(or the alien equivelant) with each other on the alien internet, having decided that virtual life was much more interesting and fun than their real lives.