For all of you that chose to knock this subject without researching it go here and download one of the best books on the subject and best of all it's free.
I'm currently reading it for the 2nd time and really enjoying it......i'd welcome opinions of anyone else thats read it
Thanks

http://www.worlditc.org/c_01_lohf_part1.ht...roduction%20One

Well, I just gave it a quick skim, and I will read it with more attention later, but from what I have seen...it isn't research.

This is nothing more than a compilation of testimony. This is a collection of stories, of people who experienced it and of others who claim to have experimented with it. No details are offered, no sources are given, no manner in which any of these stories can be investigated is available; basically, all we can do is take this book at its word that it is reporting everything faithfully. Even then, we cannot assume that it is doing so correctly, intentionaly or otherwise.

Wether EVP is real or not remains to be seen, however this book does nothing to further the cause. Testimony without supporting evidence is weak. A thousand cups of weak coffee do not make a cup of strong coffee.

Edit; removed redundant quote.

I take your point Aquatus and i am certainly not one to push any creed or Dogma onto anyone.BUT genuine research is i feel recounted in the book and if nothing else it gives a fantastic insight into the whole field of evp.But everyone ,Aquatus is right ...make up your own mind on this.This book may just help to open up peoples minds a bit.BTW ...i have no doubt that evp is real .anyone can achieve it ...given this well then this book acts as a useful tool for sharpening the understanding of the subject.

..........and again.
Well, that is where you have to be careful. We have no way of knowing if the research is indeed genuine or not, as it isn't presented in a manner in which we can verify it. It is presented as a story, like all the others, and it is assumed that we will accept it to be true. Even assuming that it is true, there are still faults. Take, for instance, the first example of 'research'. The author has several tapes with voices on them, hypothesizes that the voices are either the result of a mind trick, a self-deception, or actual spirit contact. He then carries out an experiment in which other people are allowed to hear the voices and state what they heard, and when the statements match up, he declares that it isn't simply himself that hears the words, but others as well, which means that it wasn't a mind trick, but an actual voice phenomena.

Unfortunately, mind tricks are only one possible cause. There is nothing to indicate that the author tested for the possibility of stray transmission being recorded onto his media. If this was the case, then his test subjects would have likewise heard the same message on the tapes; the message, however, would not be supernatural in origin, but rather electromagnetic.

It is an interesting read, but I would urge you not to decide based on it. A decision should be made based on logic and supported arguments, not on stories. Keep the mind open for possibilities, but do not forget that possibilities are not explanations, and an open-mind is not a system for verification or authentification.

Agreed
Will you read the whole book with an open mind and then comment on it ???????

Just one small point Aquatus (not nit picking)
I have no way of knowing if Albert Einsteins research was genuine...i only know what i read about it from others that have investigated it...likewise with Thomas Edisons work,anything i know about it was relayed to me in story form...and even though it is theoretically possible to go out and replicate both of their work i cannot ...i put my faith in those who can and do......!
Likewise with this subject i am sure it exists and it has been verified but to understand it better i read one who has researched it more than me.....!

Edit; combined consecutive posts. You can use the 'edit' feature to add a further thought instead of starting a new post. Also, there's no reason to copy the entire text of the message that sits directly above your response into your reply, it's redundant and a waste of space.

I do believe EVP's are real. However there is a lot of hoax out there. Pretty simple to fake one without the listener having the ability and knowledge to know what frequencies they usually appear in (when put in a program for study that is). I have had my own EVP's show up in some recordings of my own, especially one of my Fiance's Grandmother. Which was heard on a VHS tape, on the microphone. The entire family recognized her voice. That gave me the shivers. And it was filmed at her wake!

Anyway, I'm kinda both I guess. Both believer and a skeptic. But I also know what to look for in possible false recordings.

That's just my opinion

Also, when recording. Don't try and prove that there is an EVP. Don't go looking for one. Instead, search, study, carry recorders, record possible areas, but then try and DIS-prove them, instead of trying to prove them. If, after you have tried your best to desprove it, and there is still a question as to what it is....THEN you might have something. Just don't jump on board and say its real.

Just a little advice from an old "ghost" hunter.

Edit; combined posts.

I have to ask, if you shield a recording device,say in case it in a thick lead container. Would you not also be blocking the signals you are attempting to record?

In this magical age of TVs,Two way Radios,Cell Phones, Wireless Computers it will be almost impossible to prove an EVP recording because it would require proving proximity to the Dead Speaker. How would you do that?

There have been many trials done in whats called a "faraday cage" which blocks out ALL unwanted frequencies and radio waves.....the voices still came.....


Heres a link to what i'd consider a good experiment

http://www.worlditc.org/h_01_bacci_special_report.htm

I agree with Lord Bailey,

The problem is that once a phenomenon is reported, you get floods of similar reports that are 99% fake. I don't think anyone can say if EVP is true or not, but having heard of that Farady experiment and similar studies I am convinced that something strange is going on. Either noice is preserved in some way in the molecular structure of items where the sound originated in some manner, or its a completly paranormal occurance is yet to be determined.

I have heard though of archaelogical findings being subjected to technique that apparently plays sounds from the environment of that item. (which is why I mentioned preserved sounds). I am on the look for the article and will paste a link as soon as I find it.

I know what you mean about sounds being trapped from the environment....but hey c'mon...we're talking here about recogniseable voices answering questions and calling you by name.....
Listen people it is by no means up to me to defend the integrity of EVP because there are many many more people that are way more qualified than me to do so
such as these guys

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/grassharp/

Who do it day in and day out...they have posted their evp's and have formed research groups to study the phenomena.....i also started off by questioning their results but i have now come around to the way of thinking that the evidence is now so overwhelming that it cant be questioned anymore.I have been on so many sites and seen so many results......that is to say ,the voices are there, what and where the voices come from is always up for debate....but that they are there and real is not.....if this is some kind of mass delusion or trickery well then it involves thousands and thousands of ordinary joe's who are lying through their teeth.....not so.
Believe me start to really research this with an open mind and you wont be dissapointed...dont take my word for it...just enter evp or itc on any search engine and there are a world of sites there to investigate...make your own mind up....Please dont expect me to defend it in any more posts ..as i said thats not my job.I am merely trying to open peoples minds to something that they may not have seen before.
Thanks

Ah, you have quite accurately put your finger on the main problem most laymen have; they understand that scientists work on levels requiring much higher experience and education than normally available, but can do little more themselves than read the final outcome and have faith that the scientists aren't wrong.

But then we have a paradox. Science isn't about faith. Science doesn't make conclusion based on authority. To accept science on faith is to miss the entire purpose of it.

And so, we have a solution. Part of the entire process of scientific methodology, and an integral part, is verification and credibility. Every single scientific study must, as a matter of course, be submitted to peer review. Every single scientific study must, as a matter of course, contain full dissemination to the scientific community. This is essential, not simply to submit the new material to the world, but also to cross-check it with existing science, and find either support, resistance, or apparent paradox.

So, what does this mean to the layman? It means that there is a very simple way of deciding whether something is worthy of being trusted or not. Without needing any sort of advanced degrees, one can look at the study and ask certain questions which will indicate to them whether the study is scientific. I find these to be absolutely essential, as I do not have the time to be researching the sources of every single study I read. I can, within a few posts, teach you the basics of scientific methodology, what to look for in a study, and certain red flags that should warn you if something isn't on the up and up. I will not presume to bore you, however, unless you wish it.

And, if it helps, I am not yet ready to place EVP into the category of pseudoscience. Certainly a fringe science, and not yet a true science, but, possible, not yet a pseudoscience either.

Okay

I'm not sure if that was a go-ahead or not, but I'll take any excuse I can get

These are the pre-requisites of scientific methodology. Every single theory that presumes to be referred to as scientific must meet these criteria. If it does not meet this criteria, then it cannot be considered scientific.

1) The first would be that it needs to explain the currently existing data.
2) The second is that it would have to be able to predict future events based on that data, in order to encompass data discovered in the future.
3) The conclusion would have to be logical enough so that an unbiased third party would naturally arrive at the same results.
4) The theory must be falsifiable.
5) The explanation offered must be a verifiable event i.e. a logical path must lead from the data to the result.

This is the very foundation of science. Once you understand this, everything else kind off falls into place. If you have questions, please ask, as I want to make sure you understand why these five are so critical.

I understand the need for all of these and if you will look into my reply in the ufo thread you will see that i am not against this .....but you obviously believe science has the answers to everything or at least nothing is outside the realms of science ?
Perhaps i do as well but as yet i am still seeking and still open to other possibilities.On the subject of evp's i can post for you details of many scientific experiments carried out to prove the existence of the voices...but something tells me you wouldn't accept or be open to it !

Not at all. Not even science believes that. Science is a method for explaining the natural world, and it recognizes that there are certain things that we simply do not have explanations for yet. This is why science never claims that something does not exist or that something is impossible. That is not what science is about.



I think you will find that I have a fairly good reputation in regards to objectivity on this forum. That being said, I have been at this for almost two decades now, and chances are pretty good that I have heard every argument that you intend to make. My main purpose here is not realy to verify whether the EVP phenomena is real or not, but rather to show you how such things should be properly evaluated, so that when you enter into a discussion of this kind, you have a full understanding of what the science is, what the speculation is, and what the outright fabrications are (all three of which permeate the entire world of human thought, be it science of belief).

Trust me, I really do think some EVP occurances are very creepy to say the least. I meant that some of them could be attributed perhaps to that "preservation in matter" theory but clearly not all. I sincerely hope we here more good cases in the future. proving paranormal phenomena is actually the best part of science

Okay Guys here are some links which should prove interesting for you.
Please remember this ..very few scientists are willing to put their reputations on the line for something like evp.This is because they know that even if they could prove an experiment was 100% genuine they also know that their reputations are open to ridicule...this is because the nae sayers have more credibility....nevertheless this being said here are some links ...in the case for the defence.

http://www.worlditc.org/h_24_sub.htm
http://www.paravoice.dk/contents.htm
http://www.mindjustice.org/byrdexp.htm
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qr7s-tmym/ITC/IsReal_E.htm
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qr7s-tmym/ITC/IsReal_E.htm