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zandore
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 11 2005, 06:03 PM)
QUOTE(zandore @ Mar 11 2005, 04:27 PM)
QUOTE(Dark_Grey Posted Today @  03:13 PM )
Answer Zandores question..I think we're all curious to know..
Dark I asked with respect so lets keep it that way Please!
Thank You. thumbsup.gif
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sigh! i stated my feelings. i have an open mind, and prefer not to be categorized by others' opinions.i poured out my soul. it took me hours to write that post. (i realize i made a few typos, so please don't point them out)

QUOTE
you may call it jesus, buddha, shiva, allah, or ten thousand other names, and it would be aware.does god hear all things?maybe.but is "he" paying attention?ah!maybe that is where prayer comes in.i would think so.it really doesn't matter what you people think.it doesn't matter whether jesus, moses, david or solomon, or, for that matter, the buddha, ever lived.god hears you.god hears all prayers.



i believe in "god - god" - the rest is all interpretation....it doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not, it really doesn't.the real god hears you no matter what you name you call.
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You Belief is respected here Gideon. I am SORRY to have thought of and referred to you as a NB.
Ken1Burton
Zandore

When our little religion dies like Consummate says. You will be doing a lot of Amens. Non-believers will be an endangered species in 2029 ad as most of the world will see that Jesus is just who God said He is. The Jews will come in then, then most of the world, that includes Islam.

The Fire starts (God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29) in 2022 as the Weapons are burnt for seven years. So stock up on your weapons (Arguments against God and Christ), But remember to stand back a ways, when they are consumed by God’s word.

All the non-believers in the world will not Stop God’s Time Table. If everyone in the world were to be non-believers in 2028 ad, God would kindle a fire in one, and set them all on Fire for the Lord. You Zandore might even be the Spark in the Tinder.

God uses those who fight against Him. That is why Gideon (not the screen name) was told to take the people down to the water, Those who bowed to the Waters (Jesus as the Living water) were sent away, Those who lapped their tongues at the water (Guess who they are) were the ones God used for His battle:

(JUDGES 7:5) So he brought down the people unto the water: and the
Lord said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his
tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise
every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. (KJV)
(JUDGES 7:6) And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand
to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the
people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. (KJV)
(JUDGES 7:7) And the Lord said unto Gideon, By the three hundred
men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into
thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his
place. (KJV)

The day of the cross, God did not use the people who bowed down to the Living Water, But He used the ones who lapped their tongues at Christ, to offer Him a Sacrifice for all mankind.

Jesus or hell was one Man’s choice, Thank God Jesus chose hell and saved us all.

So where Jesus went, Into hell, they could not follow, Because Jesus paid for all past and present sin by “His stripes we are healed.” Then took all future sins of all mankind that would ever live, and that is in “world without end.” and died for them as His own sins.

(DEUTERONOMY 24:16) The fathers shall not be put to death for the
children, neither shall the children be put to death for the
fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (KJV)

(EZEKIEL 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the
father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth,
it shall die. (KJV)

NOTICE it does not use the Plural for Souls “IT” shall die, Not they shall die. For it is a prophecy for Jesus Christ. And Jesus ended hell and shut it down on the third day, NO ONE was or ever will be able to go where Jesus went after His death on the cross. “It is finished.” You want to start with the AMENS now or later?

Gideon might not want to be categorized by others but we have categories to allow people to get a general idea of where a person is coming from, and the Category Christians list those beliefs are is “NEW AGE.” with a touch of Unitarian Universalism.

Ken
GIDEON MAGE
it is so nice that christians know how to categorize everyone according to their belief system.i respect new-agers, and unitarians, and i highly respect them.
i actually attend a new-age church from time to time, and my beliefs, while not the same as theirs, are openly accepted by them, some of the nicest people i've ever met.i give up-my background is that of an occultist.i believe that the universe was created by, and is maintained by, a spirit beyond all our understanding.judaism, christianity, and all other religions are the result of one or more people sharing their experiences with the rest of us.when you send out energy into the higher planes of existence, the spirit responds in accordance with one's own level of understanding. a moslem will typically never have a vision of the virgin mary, any more than a christian will normally commune with amitabha buddha, or a jew will commune with lao tsu's taoist immortals.not impossible, but usually.but the energy always responds IF THE INTENTION IS PURE, AND ONLY IF SO.caps on purpose.hermes trismegistus said as above, so below.it is all the same.god hears you.god loves all his creation.religions are here so that we may understand what is beyond us.from what little evidence we have (the n.t.) jesus never claimed to be god, but then again, neither did buddha, but they have been worshipped for over 2000 years.in, again, occultist terms, that means that there is a major thought form on the in-between planes (tibetan buddhists call this the "bardo"), that can be contacted by anyone on earth. god is not the property of any religion.
Ken1Burton
Gideon.

Thank you for sharing. When that wave went across the Indian Ocean, The prayers went up in all forms, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and even those who did not know God by a main denomination. But knew there was someone on the other end of the prayer.

Maybe it is mankind's need to be different that keeps some choosing another way. But I see you are Searching for what is REAL. Not just going with the flow. You seek to know, Who, Why, and what difference it makes to us to know Him. Or in some cases to know It, or Them as each one sees.

The Bible says, "Seek and you will find." and I assume the level of seeking, has a great deal to do with the outcome of finding. But it does not say "Seek and you will accept."

I think your sharing makes it easier for the other posters. And shows your beliefs as sincere.

God bless your searching.

Ken.
GIDEON MAGE

thanks
god bless your searching, too
i thought, honestly, you were going to tell us where the tsunami is predicted in revelations
Ken1Burton
Gideon.

The Book of Revelation is looking at the day of the cross, there is a future similitude for the Nation of Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah. It is likened to the waters covering the sea. Is that close enough to a Tsunami?

The Nation of Israel is the Woman in Chapter 12. Jesus is the Serpent the woman is kept from the face of. Time is the creation story in 3975 bc till the Baptism in 25 ad, or 4,000 years.

(His days seen as nothing in Scripture) from Baptism to cross.

Times is the day of the cross seen as 2,000 years.

(PSALMS 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as
yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (KJV)

(ECCLESIASTES 6:6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told,
yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? (KJV)

The Dividing or half a time is from the cross in 29 ad till 2029 ad when the Jewish nation will see in the Scriptures Jesus is the Messiah. (NOTE: I am not talking a second coming as there will not be a physical coming, Jesus is already with us in Spirit.)

They are kept from seeing the face of the Serpent, and Jesus is who they can not see. Not in the Old Testament (time) not the day of the cross (times) and not for 2,000 years after the cross (Dividing or half a time)

The day of the cross is seen as a river divided into 4 heads. The River is measured in Ezekiel’s temple vision as 4 1,000 cubit measurements. The fourth 6-hour period from noon to sunset, they looked on Him whom they have pierced.

The Future similitude for what was fulfilled the day of the cross is in 2029 ad they will Again look upon Him whom they have pierced but in a different way, But seeing Him as the Messiah.

So the day of the cross is seen as 2,000 years, then the dividing or half a time is seen as 2,000 years, so the river is measured:


This is the Fourth 1,000 cubit, or noon to sunset when Jesus died on the cross.

(EZEKIEL 47:5) Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river
that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to
swim in, a river that could not be passed over. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 25:11) And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of
them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he
shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their
hands. (KJV)

Jesus on the cross with His hands spread out, The MIDST is the fourth time period with the day seen as a week. Noon to sunset. Fourth seal is the Pale Horse, death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.

(EZEKIEL 47:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward
the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
(KJV)

The Living waters is Jesus, Israel is healed in 2029 ad or awakened from sleep from seeing Jesus is the Messiah.

Here comes the Tsunami: (ISAIAH 11:9) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy
mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)

2029 ad, a Tsunami of LIVING WATER sweeping the nation of Israel, THEN the world.

(EZEKIEL 47:9) And it shall come to pass, that every thing that
liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall
live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because
these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and
every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (KJV)

Notice the River just became RIVERS. As they go forth with Rivers of Living waters flowing out of their mouths. Fisher of men, get your nets ready. A VERY great multitude of fish or Converts to Christianity, Not as the Church sees it. But as the Jews will see it in Truth. Jesus as the Serpent.

(JOHN 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV)

(EZEKIEL 47:10) And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall
stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place
to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:11) But the miry places thereof and the marishes
thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. (KJV)

There will be a few holdouts so we do not put our Bibles away.

Ken
GIDEON MAGE
c'mon-it was a joke
Ken1Burton
Gideon.

One man's junk is another man's treasure, One man's joke is an Angel's opportunity.

I was going to write another man's opportunity, But the Spirit grabbed the keyboard.

Ken
antiaging
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 11 2005, 07:59 PM)
you can't make 'almah mean virgin just because you want it to be. the prophesy is about the rebirth of the jewish nation, and the jewish people having their "olam"
get it? back again.the prophesy has come true, and the king of the jews - yhvh - is back in israel.young woman is a direct translation of the hebrew, which does not say betulah.you can not analyse the hebrew scriptures by the new testament-it doesnt work-again, in isaiah 14, it says "but the lord will pardon jacob, and will again choose israel, and will settle them in their own soil.


look, and all kidding aside, the kid wasn't named immanuel, he was named yeshua!
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Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus, Yeshuah, - Jehovah is salvation or Saviour. (form of Joshua)
Emmanuel - interpreted as God with us.

Now, do you see the interpretation. He is to save his people from their sins (by being offered as a sacrifice for sin Is.53:10 as Messiah) so He is called saviour which is a meaning of Jesus. If Jehovah is salvation, and Jesus is saviour then Jesus is also Jehovah. God manifested in the flesh, which is God with us, which means Immanuel.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Explaining this from the Old Testament (Messianic Jewish statement on the subject).
When God is referred to in the singular such as I, it is showing the being of God as the only God. When it is in the plural he is revealing something personal of his nature. What cults do is concentrate only on the single passages that describe God as I, me, myself and ignore all the plural passages such as us, we, our. They also ignore how they are used. Because of their preconceived notions that God has to be numerically one they have tunnel vision. If we look carefully we find God is usually revealing his persons when speaking of himself in the plural context. Trinitarians realize that God is described in both ways and take the whole of the Bible instead of a cut and paste theology that makes the scriptures conform to our own interpretation. God is clearly presented as a united one not only through the language but through the descriptions themselves. "In the light of the facts of the New Testament we cannot refrain from asking whether there may not have been some adumbrations of it in the Old Testament. As the doctrine arises directly out of the facts of the New Testament, we do not look for any full discovery of it in the Old Testament. We must not expect too much, because, as Israel's function was to emphasize the unity of God (Deut.6:4), any premature revelation might have been. But if the doctrine be true, we might expect that Christian Jews, at any rate, would seek for some anticipation of it in the Old Testament. We believe we find it there. (a) The use of the plural "Elohim,," with the singular verb, "bara," is at least noteworthy, and seems to call for some recognition, especially as the same grammatical solecism is found used by St. Paul (1 Thess.3:11). Then, too, the use of the plurals "our" (Gen. 1. 26), "us" (3:22), "us" (11:7), seems to indicate some self-converse in God. It is not satisfactory to refer this to angels because they were not associated with God in creation. Whatever may be the meaning of this usage, it seems, at any rate, to imply that Hebrew Monotheism was an intensely living reality". ( Dr. W. H. Griffith Thomas Principles of Theology The Doctrine Anticipated" pp. 25, 26), God has unfolded his revelation throughout history and many times we had to wait to understand it. This is especially true for prophecy. When we take all the information the Bible has on a certain subject such as the nature of God we can understand what was said in the past. What was given in Genesis, needed to have future revelation to explain its meaning. In the same way, there are only two scriptures relating to a virgin conceiving Gen.3:15, Isa 7:14 and needed the future revelation to understand their meaning. The example of this is Gen. 1:26: " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Let us make man in our image-Naase=let us make, adam bitzalmanu- adam bitzalmanu- nu=our, tselem= image in our likeness- keedmutenu- keedmutenu- nu=our, demuth=likeness. (dashes found in Hebrew mean 2 words in a relationship to one another) the words our and us are interconnected with other words and cannot be separated. Anti Trinitarians like Jehovah Witnesses and others entertain the only reasonable explanation from human wisdom. Trying to avoid the issue saying God talked with the angels, The Bible once again refute this logic in Isa.40:12-15 when speaking of God creating the world it asked, "With whom did he take counsel." Can anyone find this statement of his conferring with angels in the Bible. I'm sure when they do it will be right next to God is strictly one person. The speaker of Gen.1:26 is God, the other he is speaking to is of the same nature and essence because he includes him in being equal, as the source of creating. The words image and likeness are attached to the plural pronoun our and us. So the speaker and the ones addressed are of the same image. While the J.W. and other anti Trinitarians will say he speaking to the angels the very next verse settles the matter. Vs.27 verifies all this by saying "so God created man in his own image ; in the image of God he created him." There were no angels involved in making man in his image. Isa.45:11: "Thus says the holy One of Israel and his maker "I have made the earth, and created man on it. I-- My hands-- stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded." Gen. 3:22:" And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us," us is indicative of number; the word one is also the word echad meaning to unite. Gen.11:7: ..." let us go down, and there confound their language,"' the us is found in this text and is the same word for us in vs.4 when the people said "come let us build ourselves a city". If one is going to say us can't be plural, then they will have to be consistent and change this to, come let myself build a city. Gen.19:24: "Then Yahweh rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven Yahweh who was on earth talking to Abraham in form rained it from another who is Yahweh in heaven. ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there: ( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)." here we have three individuals existing together, the one speaking states that he was there from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers to the Lord and states that both Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the speaker.) This goes perfectly in line with Isa. 6:8 God speaking to Isaiah "Who shall I send, who will go for us". Both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse. Zech.2: 8-11: Here we have an account of someone being sent from the Lord yet as the description goes on in the passages we find this person to be God himself. In vs.10 " sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst says the Lord. In vs11 ..." And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you" Here are two persons mentioned the Lord said he is coming he then says the Lord of hosts is sending him, who is identified as Yahweh. It is this one who will dwell with man. Isa.41:21-26: God asks the people to present their case in vs.22 he uses the plural us, and we for himself . In vs.23 we vs.26 we . Since this is God speaking the conclusion is that he refers to himself in the plural. Isa.45:11:" Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, I have made the earth and created man on it, I my hands stretched out the heavens." two persons Yahweh and his maker who is God also. Singular as God, plural in persons (Isa. 45:18, ) How does this mesh with Isaiah 44:24 ? It states that the Lord made all things who stretched out the heavens all alone, who spreads out the earth by myself." There is no conflict, because the Father, Son and the Spirit are all God. As the one God alone, he made everything! In the N.T. we find this maker is Christ the Son (Col.1:16, Jn.1:3,Heb.1:2) God the Father is the source, Christ is the means and the Spirit is the power that created all things. Since all three are involved in creating they are the one God. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God (Elohim) created. The word Elohim is a compound unity. It describes more than one person as a unified one as in this description of God. If all three are attributed to this event then they are Elohim. Zech.13:7: " Awake, O sword against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, says the Lord of hosts." the Hebrew word for fellow means equal, so it reads against the man who is my equal (deity). Jer.23:5-6: " Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Here is described a descendant of David a man who will reign on David's throne and is called the Lord, yet there is another who is Lord who raised him up. This is echoed by Isaiah 9:6 about the Son who is given, "of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom. To order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward even forever." What other man could deserve the title "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Except the sinless God/man. The mighty God of Isa.9:6. The ancient rabbis also believed that this verse was a reference the Messiah? This verse is applied to the Messiah in a number of rabbinical writings. Regarding Jeremiah 23:6, the ancient' of the Prophets states: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the Just. Rabbi Kimchi (I160-1235 C.E.), a highly respected Rabbi in his time, wrote of this prophecy: 'By the Righteous branch is meant Messiah ". In the Midrash on Psalm 23, it is interesting to note the Messiah is given a divine designation. He is called, "Jehovah is a man of war' and "Jehovah our righteousness., Also in the Midrash on Lamentations 1: 16, the name Jehovah is expressly attributed to the Messiah. If the ancient rabbis are correct, then the obvious and startling conclusion is that the Messiah (the righteous shoot) will be born into the world as a literal physical human being. Isa.11:1-5 "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." Here we have the Branch mentioned which indicates the lineage of Jesus coming from King David's Father Jesse. (Lk.22:42) We also see him having the fullness of the Spirit even beyond what Solomon had. The Spirit is mentioned 7 times a number indicating completeness or fullness. "The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear of the LORD, ." Zech.3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day". This identifies him as the branch. He is Gods servant, Jesus said he did not come to be served but to serve. He also says he will remove the sin in one day, which is exactly what happened when Jesus died. Continuing in his revelation he is told by the Lord in Zech.4:7 that he will bring forth the capstone with shouts of grace, grace to it. The day iniquity was removed was because of grace, the New Covenant. Zech.12:10:"and they will look upon me (the word "me" is given two letters the Aleph and the Tov in Hebrew which is equal to the alpha and omega in the Greek) whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for his only Son." There is the 1st person speaking who is God, he addresses the subject pierced as himself and then addresses himself in the 3rd person as the Son. This is a clear indication of God becoming man and dying for the sins of the world.



antiaging
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 11 2005, 07:59 PM)
you can't make 'almah mean virgin just because you want it to be. the prophesy is about the rebirth of the jewish nation, and the jewish people having their "olam"
get it? back again.the prophesy has come true, and the king of the jews - yhvh - is back in israel.young woman is a direct translation of the hebrew, which does not say betulah.you can not analyse the hebrew scriptures by the new testament-it doesnt work-again, in isaiah 14, it says "but the lord will pardon jacob, and will again choose israel, and will settle them in their own soil.


look, and all kidding aside, the kid wasn't named immanuel, he was named yeshua!
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Well I found the solution to the problem. The massoretic text does have Almah, and it does mean young woman, but anywhere almah is used in the Old Testament it always refers to a young woman that is a virgin. That is why it should be translated virgin.
Found at this website:
http://www.seedofabraham.net/virgin.html
Quote:
Most traditional Jews who have studied this prophecy agree with Rabbi Rosenberg and say that the Hebrew means, a young woman, who could be married. Unfortunately for them however, the Hebrew Bible disagrees with their assessment of almah. There is no place in the Tanach (Old Testament; Hebrew Bible), where almah is used (or its plural), that refers to a young woman who is married or has known a man. But this is conveniently left out by Rabbi Rosenberg and others.

Almah is never used of any young women who were married or who had had sexual relations with men (whores, etc.).

The argument can be made that alamot can't explicitly be seen to be a reference to virgins. But it cannot authoritatively be proven that they have known men either. These are all the times where either almah or its plural, alamot, is used in relation to women. From the Hebrew word itself, and the Hebrew texts, almah is always used to refer to a young maiden who is obviously a virgin, and this is the way Is. 7:14 should be understood (unless we have a compelling reason to see it otherwise, but none exists).

Isaiah's use of almah has made it one of the most controversial passages of Scripture. Having looked at all the places where the word is found in Scripture, we saw that it always spoke of a young woman who was a virgin, and never one who had known a man. The Septuagint affirmed Isaiah's meaning as 'virgin' with its use of parthenos, the specific Greek word for virgin.
GIDEON MAGE
gee, and my bible (jps, traqnslated directly from hebrew by jews, and therefore according to you inferior)
zechariah 12:10 says, "But i will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and ahowing bitter grief as over a first-born."
if i used christian logic, i would have to conclude that mary had twins....and, the n.t. does refer to james, the brother of jesus!that's it!two first-born sons!
i recommend that all christians go out and get a copy of the tanach, published by the j.p.s.
do you think i make this stuff up?do you think that jews are evil and even look at xian translations to try to blaspheme the n.t.? i think not!
let's see what the introduction to the 1985 edition says "This translation of the Tanach, the Holy Scriptures, produced by the Jewish Publication Society, was mad directly from the traditional Hebrew test into the idiom of modern English."

first you claimed that isaiah used betulah, then, when cornered, you quote some christian website, and refused to admit you were wrong the first time.
and the child wasn't even named immanuel!
you don't pray to "Manny Christ", do you?

admit you were wrong, and buy a real bible.king james is very archaic, has hundreds of mistranslations, because it was not from hebrew, and jews use hebrew, the language most of the holy scriptures were written in, with a few passages in aramaic, which you may have heard of.
GIDEON MAGE
i can't hold back, antiaging... your scholarship is faulty, and you do not know what you are talking about, let us see where jesus is actually fortold about.
jeremiah 17:5
is a warning to the jews about following jesus, who was flesh:
"Thus said the Lord:
Cursed is he who trusts in man,
who makes mere flesh his strength,
And turns his thooughts from the Lord."
and for the trinity, isaih, chapter 43, says
(speaking to the jews)
"my witness are you-
declares the Lord-
my Servant, whom I have chosen.
To the end that you may take thought
and believe in me
and understand that i am he
before me no god was formed
and after me none shall exist
none but me, the lord.

isaiah 44 "i am the first and the last,
and there is no god beside me."
any questions?
isaiah knew there was no trinity...it was invented at the council of constantinople, and is not even mentioned in the n.t.
stop twisting god's words, please,please.
even david, in psalms 146:3
warns about jesus.
"put not your trust in princes nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation."
god kew what was to come, and warned the jews about it.why do you THINK they didn't follow your false messiah?they were warned

since you insist on using the internet, try http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

and how about http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/



if you dare
GIDEON MAGE






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Problems with Jesus' Lineage

Was Jesus A Legitimate Heir to The Royal Line of David?

According to Judaism, a primary consideration for a candidate to be our Messiah is he must be a father-son descendant of King David - a line that was traceable even into the early Middle Ages. Jesus lived within that time, and the writers of the New Testament considered it essential that he be shown as David’s descendant. In fact, the New Testament opens up with the words:

The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David…

Matthew 1:1.

To determine whether Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s line, we will now examine the New Testament. Several problems are found there that help explain why the Jewish people could not accept Jesus as our Messiah.

Who was Jesus’ father? A Contradiction. Most Christians considers Jesus as both the Messiah and the Son of G-d, which poses a contradiction. Who was his father? If it is G-d, then Jesus is not someone of David’s lineage. If it is David, then he cannot be the Son of G-d. The fact that he could have only one father makes being the Son of G-d and the Messiah as mutually exclusive. Which is it?

Christians contend that G-d is his father, and that Jesus got his connection to David through two lineages shown in the New Testament: one in the book of Matthew, the other in the book of

Luke. Our discussion will now deal with those lineages, together with one from the book of

1st Chronicles in the Tanach for comparison. By examining these lineages, we will see that they present quite a problem for the Christian position.

1st Chronicles 3 Matthew 1 Luke 3
David David David
Solomon 7 Solomon 7 Nathan 7
Rehoboam Rehoboam Mattatha
Abijah Abijah Menna
Asa Asa Melea
Jehoshaphat Jehoshaphat Eliakim
Jehoram Jehoram Jonam
Ahaziah X 3 Joseph
Joash X 3 Judah
Amaziah X 3 Simeon
Azariah Uzziah Levi
Jotham Jotham Matthat
Ahaz Ahaz Jorim
Hezekiah Hezekiah Eliezer
Manasseh Manasseh Joshua
Amon Amon Er
Josiah Josiah Elmadam
Jehoiakim X 3 Cosam
Jechoniah 4 Jechoniah 4 Addi
Shealtiel Shealtiel Melki
Pedaiah Zerubbabel Neri
Hananiah Abiud Shealtiel
Shecaniah Eliakim Zerubbabel
Shemaiah Azor Rhesa
Neariah Zadok Joanan
Elioenai Akim Joda
Eliud Josech
Eleazar Semein
Matthan Mattathias
Jacob Maath
Joseph 1, 2, 6, 8 Naggai
Esli
Nahum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Jannai
Melki
Levi
Matthat
Heli
Joseph 1, 5, 6, 8

Point #1: Both lineages end with Joseph (Jesus’ stepfather), yet are extremely different.

How can Joseph have two different lineages? It certainly challenges the credibility of one, if not both of them. The Christian response to this is that the Matthew lineage is that of Joseph, whereas the Luke lineage belongs to Mary. We will now deal with each one to examine their problems.

Concerning Joseph’s Lineage in Matthew.

Point #2: A stepfather is not your father. We are looking, in a sense, to find the path whereby David’s Y-chromosomes (passed father-to-son) reached Jesus. It doesn’t jump from one’s stepfather. Christians will argue that Joseph adopted Jesus, and by doing so gave over the inheritance of the royal line. Yet, just as with the Kohanim (Priests), an adopted son cannot become a Kohane. So, too, a son adopted by a member of the royal line cannot become heir to the throne.

Point #3: Missing Names & Generations. When you compare the Davidic line shown in Matthew against how it is shown in 1st Chronicles, we see that 4 names are eliminated as indicated on the chart. The language in Matthew, for instance, states that Uzziah (same as Azariah) was the son of Jehoram, instead of the son of Amaziah. Christian apologists try to explain this by stating that when it says “this one begat that one”, it implies his ancestor, and not necessarily his father. The problem they create for themselves, is that Matthew states:

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David

until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Matthew 1:17

We can accept that names could be skipped when showing an ancestral line. However, it is not fair to take a lineage that stretched from David to the exile, which included 18 generations, and claim it only contained 14.

Point #4: Joseph himself was not a legitimate heir to the throne. Even if you could get your lineage through adoption, one could only pass on what you rightly own, and Joseph was of an invalid line. In Matthew 1:11 it shows that Joseph was descended from a former king named Jechoniah, or Coniah for short. He was a very wicked king, and was cursed by Hashem. In Jeremiah 22, we see that Jechoniah’s descendants are absolutely cut-off as heirs to the throne. Therefore anyone descended from Joseph was also cut-off as a candidate to be king.

Is this man Coniah a despised broken vessel? An object that no one cares for? Why are they cast out, he and his seed, and banished to a land which they know not? O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord, Write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

Jeremiah 22:28-30

Christians will answer that even the Talmud tells us that Jechoniah repented, and that his grandson Zerubbabel became a leader among the Jews. This they claim is proof that the curse was temporary, and was later rescinded. The fact is that Zerubbabel only became a governor. Neither he nor anyone else from this line ever sat on the throne again. The curse remained.

As a descendant of Jechoniah, Joseph’s lineage was not valid. The reality is that very few Christians attach Jesus to David through Joseph anyway, relying more on the line of Mary. Which leads us to wonder, why was the lineage of Joseph even mentioned to begin with?

Concerning Mary’s Lineage in Luke.

Point #5: Mary’s name is not mentioned anywhere in connection to Luke’s lineage. How would we know this is Mary’s line? Some will contend that Heli is really Mary’s father, and when it says that Heli is the father of Joseph, it really means father-in-law. Yet, the New Testament says nothing about who Heli was anywhere, and he is only mentioned here. Others contend that Joseph was also the name of Mary’s father, and that the Joseph mentioned here was really Mary’s father, not husband. The bottom line is that one cannot substantiate this as Mary’s lineage by anything written in the New Testament, but must rely on a Christian oral tradition. This is ironic, since Christians are so adamant in condemning the legitimacy of Jewish oral traditions, insisting on a strict reliance on scripture alone.

Point #6: The royal line is only passed through the father, never the mother. Even if the lineage mentioned in Luke is Mary’s lineage - that presents a problem in of itself. True, one’s Jewishness is passed through the mother, yet one’s tribal inheritance passes through the father. Christians argue that the Book of Numbers shows a case where a father had no sons, and his estate of land went to his daughters, who it is presumed could pass it on to their children. The Jewish position, however, is that this may apply to property, but not to one’s rights to the throne. Yet, even if we were to assume that the lineage could pass through the mother, and we assume that Luke’s lineage did in fact belong to Mary, was Mary’s lineage a legitimate one?

Point #7: David-to-Solomon. According to Judaism, the Davidic line had to pass through David’s son Solomon, and no other son.

As I swore to you by the Lord G-d of Israel , saying, assuredly Solomon your son shall reign after me (David), and he shall sit upon my throne in my place…

I Kings 1:30

Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies around; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.

1 Chronicles 22:9-10

Luke’s lineage shows that Mary is not from Solomon’s line, but rather from another of David’s sons, Nathan (Luke 3:31 ), who was not the royal heir. Since Mary is not from Solomon’s line, she and her descendants do not have a legitimate connection to the royal line of David either.

Point #8: Unlikely Marriage. If in fact the lineage shown in Matthew was Joseph’s (27 generations from David to Joseph), and the lineage in Luke was in fact Mary’s (43 generations from David to Mary), then Mary married someone 16 generations older than herself. Quite unlikely.

Having seen that neither Matthew’s lineage of Joseph, nor Luke’s (supposed) lineage of Mary is legitimate, how can one consider Jesus as a legitimate descendant of David? One cannot. Without this, an honest person cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah, since this is the most important criterion, and Jesus does not have it.



GIDEON MAGE
Was Jesus a Prophet?

According to Judaism, the Torah was given to the Jewish people as a guide book for life. We believe that within it is the "blueprint" of Creation, laying out the foundation and principals upon which the Heavens and Earth operate. Regardless of time and location, wherever a Jew will find himself, it will give him insight into what to think and what to do. This was certainly the case when the Jewish people approached the Land of Israel after leaving Egypt. They were prepared.

This also applied to the coming of Jesus 2000 years ago. We will admit that his coming was significant enough that the Torah would prepare us for how to understand someone like him and how to deal with him.

If you were to ask a missionary to show you where Jesus is most openly hinted at in the Torah, they would most likely show you the following.

"I will raise them a Prophet from among their brothers, like you (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

Deuteronomy 18:18

"I will raise a prophet ... like ... Moses". They will ask, "Who was a prophet like Moses?" "Whoever will not listen to him, I will require it of him." Who could the Torah be speaking about? They would insist it is Jesus, and that if we do not follow Jesus, G-d would require it of us.

Knowing what we know about how missionaries typically try to build their case, we need to first ask ourselves, what is the full context of this verse? If we read it in its entirety, we see a more complete picture.

"I will raise them a Prophet from among their brothers, like you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken, and the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

Deuteronomy 18:18-22

This passage really serves several purposes.

•It established the authority of all future prophets after Moses is gone. If, when it says "I will raise up a prophet", it refers to only one person, and that being Jesus, where else would Isaiah and Jeremiah get their authority from that we should believe them?

•Even if it did refer to Jesus, what would be Jesus' standing in Jewish eyes?

"And there has not arisen since in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, and in all that mighty hand, and in all the great and awesome deeds which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel."

Deuteronomy 34:10

He, like all other prophets would always be on a lower level than Moses.

•It instructs us on how to distinguish between a true and a false prophet. We are told that when he prophesizes, and the thing he predicts does not come about, we are not to regard him as a true prophet.

Let us now examine the New Testament, to see how Jesus faired as a prophet. In reality he prophesized very little, and we will see how his words measure up to what we were told in Deuteronomy 18:18-22.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Matthew 12:38-40

Here Christians will confidently proclaim Jesus as a prophet, because he foretold his own death and resurrection. The problem is that this prophesy was given to the "scribes and Pharisees". If his prophesy in fact came true, and he was resurrected from the dead, then he should have appeared to them to establish his truth. He did not appear to his doubters, but we have to "trust" his followers that the events of his resurrection in fact came true.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, tin they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 16:28

Here Jesus is telling his disciples that he shall return before some of them die. Obviously he did not, and has not for 2000 years. What kind of prophet would Deuteronomy 18 deem him to be?

According to the Jewish perspective, we do hold that the Torah speaks clearly about people like Jesus. In fact, it goes into mentioning his miracles and his death. We find this in Deuteronomy 13.

"If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder, comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them'; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your G-d tests you, to know whether you love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your G-d, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall serve him, and hold fast to him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he has spoken to turn you away from the Lord your G-d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to thrust you out of the way which the Lord your G-d commanded you to walk in. So shall you purge the evil away from the midst of you."

Deuteronomy 13:2-6

Hashem here announces that He would send us a miracle-working prophet to test our faithfulness to Him. We are told to not be fooled by miracles. In fact, the major prophets that Christians cite: Isaiah, Jeremiah & Ezekiel are not known for having done any miracles at all. We, instead, value the truth of their words. Ironically, the New Testament tries to validate Jesus, because of his miracles.

"Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?"

John 9:16

In Deuteronomy 13, we are given a standard by which we are to assess all views of G-d that are presented to us, to see if they are real or not. When we are warned not to 'go after other gods, which you have not known', we must honestly ask if a certain view of G-d is how Moses' generation knew it to be. If not, we must not follow it. Therefore, from this chapter, we have learned to reject Jesus as a true prophet, and the myth of the Trinity as well. Because this is a view of G-d "that we have not known."

One last point. We learned before, that since the completion of the Tanach, the Jews have held that the "age of prophesy" ended. This in fact was a motivation behind canonizing the Tanach, since in a sense "that book was closed." Testifying to this, is the fact that the Jews do not recognize any post-Tanach prophets. If Jesus is held to be a prophet, then the only category he could then grouped into would be a "false prophet".

Interestingly, did the prophet Zechariah prophesize about Jesus centuries before he lived? We believe that in the Messianic era, the false prophets will return to confess their error.

"On that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for cleansing and for sprinkling. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass from the land. And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother who bore him shall say to him, You shall not live; for you speak lies in the name of the Lord; and his father and his mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies. And it shall come to pass on that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed everyone of his vision, when he has prophesied; nor shall they wear a hairy mantle in order to deceive; But he shall say, I am not a prophet, I am a tiller of the soil; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. And one shall say to him, What are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 13:1-6



Tampering With The Evidence



In every way, whether in pretense or in truth,

Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.

Philippians 1:18



He who speaks truth gives just evidence;

but a false witness deceits.

Proverbs 12:17

Missionaries want you to believe in the New Testament, and that their claims about Jesus are supported by the Tanach. To examine the believability of these claims, let’s begin by examining how honestly missionaries and the writers of the New Testament use Jewish scriptures.

A careful study of the Tanach, as well as the New Testament, reveals how often deception is used to build the case for Jesus. Since the writers of the New Testament wanted to paint Jesus into the Tanach as often as possible, we will see just how far they will go to make things work. Two key lessons that you should learn from this Study Guide are that:

1) Judaism must include every verse of the Tanach to get the true picture, whether the verse praises us or criticizes us for our worst failings. Missionaries do not and cannot quote every verse. They ignore major sections of the Tanach, because many verses contradict the picture they are trying to fabricate. Just look at their literature, does it or can it ever include:

• “God is not a man, that he should lie…” Numbers 23:19

• “Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.” Psalm 146:3 (Jesus is referred to constantly as the Son of Man.)

2) Furthermore, every verse of “prophecy” they claim to cite from the Tanach, is either:

• Mistranslated or misrepresented;

• Taken out of context;

• Or just made up!

This is a very big claim, so let’s investigate this further.

Setting The Stage

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1st Corinthians 9:20-22

In the passage above, the Apostle Paul showed his willingness to say whatever it took to get people to believe in Jesus. Here he set the example of “the end justifies the means” for all future missionaries. What we will do now is look at several examples to show how much they “tamper with the evidence.”

The Order of The Tanach

A key insight into Christian manipulation begins with something as simple as the order of the Tanach. As we know, the word “Tanach” is an acrostic formed by the first letter of the names of the three sections of the Jewish Scriptures: Torah (The Five Books), Neviim (Prophets), and Kesuvim (Writings). The Tanach was canonized in roughly 500 BCE (over 800 years before the New Testament was canonized) by the Men of The Great Assembly, who obviously placed significance on the order of the books.

When the Church sought to graft the New Testament onto the Tanach and create the “Bible”, many changes in translation and the order of the books were made to make it appear to “flow” better from our book to theirs.
• They obviously felt they had license as “editors” of our Tanach to rearrange its order. As we will see, they will demonstrate this freedom to change other things as well.

• The new order meant that the book could no longer be called the Tanach, and required a new name. They substituted the name “Old Testament”, implying a “New Testament,” which to some means it superseded the old.

• Ending Jewish Scriptures with the book of Malachi flows better into the New Testament book of Matthew than does 2nd Chronicles, since 2nd Chronicles ends with an upbeat message for the Jews. There King Cyrus of Persia gives the Jews permission to return from exile to rebuild their land and their Temple . In typical fashion, the Church tried to avoid showing hopeful messages about the future of the Jews, especially since we rejected Jesus.

Thus said Cyrus king of Persia , ‘All the kingdoms of the earth has the Lord G-d of heaven given me; and He has charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem , which is in Judah . Whoever is among you of all His people, the Lord his G-d be with him, and let him go up!’

2 Chronicles 36:23

Malachi in contrast ends with:

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord…

Malachi 3:23

For the Church, this is a great lead-in to the New Testament story of John the Baptist, whom they allege to be Elijah the Prophet, bringing in the Messiah, Jesus. (In the New Testament Book of John, John the Baptist will actually deny being Elijah.)

Misquoting Texts

The New Testament repeatedly claims that Jesus fulfilled Biblical prophecies. The Jewish position is that he did not fulfill any, and that all attempts to make him appear to have done so come from misquoting our texts. This manipulation of our scriptures is done through taking passages out of context, mistranslating words, or even making up quotes! Below are several New Testament (NT) verses, together with their source in Tanach (T). Let us examine how honestly they portrayed things.

TAKING OUT OF CONTEXT

EXAMPLE #1

When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt : And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt have I called my son.”

Matthew 2:14 (NT)

This New Testament story is about Joseph, fleeing with his wife Mary and baby Jesus, shortly after Jesus was born. G-d is quoted as calling His “son” out of Egypt . Looking at this passage as presented in Matthew, it might appear that there was a Biblical notion of a “son of G-d”, and Jesus fulfilled it.

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt .”

Hosea 11:1 (T)

If you looked at the entire passage in Hosea that Matthew is quoting from, we see that Hosea is clearly referring to the Jewish People collectively as G-d’s “son”. This use of metaphor is common throughout the Tanach, where the Jewish people are referred to repeatedly as G-d’s “son” or “child”, etc.

And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn....

Exodus 4:22


You shall also consider in your heart, that, as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastened you.

Deuteronomy 8:5.

Furthermore, the above verse in Hosea is one of many examples where the New Testament takes a historical event and makes it into a messianic prophesy.

EXAMPLE #2

And leaving Nazareth, he (Jesus) came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulon and Nephthalim: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “The land of Zebulon, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.” The people, which sat in darkness, saw a great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death, light is sprung up.

Matthew 4:13 (NT)

This passage deals with the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, and lists the areas he visited. Matthew wanted to show that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy that the Messiah would also begin his prophecy in these places.

Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory; and it will rise over all its channels, and go over all its banks.... For there is no weariness to him (the king of Assyria) who is set against her, at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulon, and the land of Naphtali, and afterwards he afflicted her more grievously by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

Isaiah 8:7,23 (T)

The 8th chapter of Isaiah is really an historical account of the king of Assyria ’s assault on the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which ultimately led to his taking the ten tribes into exile. The chapter ends with a description of how he afflicted the land of Zebulon , Naphtali, and the Galilee , as opposed to Matthew’s claim that this is a messianic prophecy, fulfilled by Jesus. Notice that Matthew twice eliminates wording about how the subject “afflicted” these areas.

MISTRANSLATIONS

To make the Tanach (T) itself appear to be filled with references to Jesus, Christian translators will even mistranslate some of the Hebrew words. Therefore, not only should we be aware of the deception found in the New Testament, but we must also be wary of Christian translations of what they call the Old Testament (OT) as well.

EXAMPLE #3

Psalm 22:17

For dogs have surrounded me; the assembly of the wicked have encircled me; they pierced my hands and my feet.

Christian Translation (OT).

It appears that the Psalm prophesizes about someone whose hands and feet are pierced. This leads one to think it is hinting at Jesus.

VS

For dogs surround me; the assembly of the wicked encircles me, like a lion (at) my hands and feet.

Original Hebrew (T).

This passage is written by King David about the travails of his life, and is not a messianic prophecy. The word (C’Ari) means “like a lion”, and David uses the word “lion” earlier in the same Psalm to describe his pursuers. If you examine all other places where Christian translators translates (C’Ari) in the Old Testament, they are translated “like a lion”. (Numbers 24:9, Isaiah 38:13, Ezekiel 22:25).

EXAMPLE #4

Psalm 2:12

Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

Christian Translation (OT).

It appears that the Psalm clearly commands us to embrace the Son (of G-d), or else suffer the consequences.

VS

Embrace Purity, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

Original Hebrew (T).

In this psalm, David is admonishing the rulers of the earth on their behavior. “Be prudent… accept discipline…Serve the Lord in awe; tremble with fright.The word means “purity” in Hebrew. Christians try to insert the Aramaic word for “son” into a Hebrew psalm.

Made Up Verses

EXAMPLE #5

And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth : that it might be filled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”

Matthew 2:23 (NT)

The point of this passage is to show that the Messiah is supposed to be from the city of Nazareth , and to be known for that, as Jesus of Nazareth was. Not only has there never been a requirement for the Messiah to be from Nazareth , but also the quote Matthew cites does not appear anywhere in the Tanach. It was made up! Not even the words “ Nazareth ” or “Nazarene” themselves are to be found as well.

Some Christians attempt to connect this verse with a “nazir”, which is someone who takes an oath of abstinence from wine, etc. However, “Nazir” is spelled with a “zayin “(z), whereas Natzeret ( Nazareth ) is spelled with a by "tzady“ (tz). Others try to make the connection from the description of the Messiah in Isaiah 11, as a “netzar “ (branch) of Jesse (David’s father). Even though the word root is the same, it is clearly not the same quote, and shows no connection to the city of Nazareth .

• EXAMPLE #6

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me.”

Matthew 27:9-10 (NT)

Matthew wants us to think that the Prophet Jeremiah foretold about the 30 pieces of silver that Judas received for betraying Jesus. After feeling remorse, Judas threw them into the Temple before committing suicide. Actually, Jeremiah never said any such quote. The closest we can come up with are a combination of the following:

And Jeremiah said, The word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Behold, Hanameel, the son of Shallum, your uncle shall come unto you, saying, Buy my field that is in Anathoth: for the right of redemption is yours to buy it.

Jeremiah 32:6-7 (T)



And I said unto them, If you think it good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Zechariah 11:12-14 (T)

One might say that all the examples we have given so far are petty compared to the big picture. Know that the same type of manipulation of scripture is also used for beliefs that are foundational to Christianity. Let’s now examine two of these beliefs.

The Virgin Birth

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 (Christian Translation)

This is the verse upon which Christianity bases its claim that Jesus was born of a virgin, which is necessary to show that he was the “son of G-d.” As mentioned before, stories of “virgin-births” were common within pagan mythologies, and were readily accepted by pagans. Judaism, on the other hand, never accepted a belief in anything like this.

By now we have seen enough of how some Christian “editors” manipulate Jewish texts to appreciate how this verse has been doctored. Through mistranslating words and taking things out of context, we again see how their “Old Testament” is an invalid representation of our Tanach.

Let us now look at all of Isaiah Chapter 7 to see what is really going on.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz ...king of Judah , that Rezin the king of Aram , and Pekah ...king of Israel , went up toward Jerusalem to fight against it, but could not prevail against it.... Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask a sign of the Lord your G-d; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And he said, Hear now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my G-d also? 14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, the young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-El. Butter and honey shall he eat, when he shall know how to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know how to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread shall be deserted.

Isaiah 7:1-16 (T)

King Ahaz of the Kingdom of Judah was being attacked by the two armies of Aram and Israel , and was panicking. To ease his fears, G-d offered him a sign that he and the rest of Jerusalem would be saved. The young woman (that Ahaz knew) was pregnant, and would give birth. The real sign was that before the child would “know how to refuse the evil, and choose the good”, Ahaz would be spared of the two kings.

Ahaz lived 700 years before Jesus. What comfort would he gain from a child born 700 years later, since he needed help then? Christian translators change the word (Ha’alma), which means “the young woman” to mean “a virgin”, which is actually (Besula). When you cross-reference these words with other times it is mentioned in Tanach, the “the young woman” translation will be proven correct. Besides, if it did mean “a virgin”, then there had to be a virgin-birth in Ahaz’s day, and there is no mention of any such event occurring.

Blood Atonement

For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 17:11 (OT)

Christian missionaries will tell you that this passage affirms that it is only through a blood sacrifice that we can make atonement for our souls. Since we Jews no longer have Temple sacrifices, how do we achieve atonement? They answer that such sacrifices are no longer necessary since the blood of Jesus will serve as our eternal atonement if we only believe in him.

Once again, we insist that it is necessary to see every passage in its full context to understand its true meaning.

And whoever there is of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any kind of blood; I will set my face against that soul who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said to the people of Israel , No soul of you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood. And whoever there is of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who hunts and catches any beast or bird that may be eaten; he shall pour out its blood, and cover it with dust. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for its life; therefore I said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any kind of flesh; for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.

Leviticus 17:10-14 (T)

Clearly, these passages are about the prohibition against consuming blood, and are not about atonement. Blood is special, and when sacrifices play their part to atone for us, it is the blood (not the nose or the foot or the ear) that atones when offered on the altar. However, is a blood sacrifice the only way to achieve atonement? Not according to the Tanach. See "Is A Blood Sacrifice Required For Atonement?

By now, I hope you can see how important it is to deal with all of Tanach in its original language and context. The writers of the Christian scriptures had an agenda, and needed the Jewish texts to fit their needs. We certainly have not covered all of the Christian proof-texts, but it is fair to say that we have seen typical examples of the distortion used to make their case.
Is A Blood Sacrifice

Required For Atonement?

Quite often, missionaries will cite Hebrews 9:22 (NT) which states: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission" (forgiveness of sin). But is this true? Is this a Jewish concept? After all the New Testament claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism as found in the Jewish Bible. Let us look at this question to see if the New Testament is telling the truth about this important subject.

The New Testament bases this idea on Leviticus 17:11 which says:

For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

From a simple reading of this, it seems that "blood makes atonement for the soul. Without blood atonement does not seem possible. But, is this the whole story?

First of all, we must always ask ourselves, "What is the full context of this verse." An honest reading of Leviticus 17:10-14 shows clearly that the Torah is speaking about a prohibition against eating blood, not about atonement. Blood is considered important because when an animal is offered, the blood is the part that effects the atonement, not the skin or the bones. These passages are also here to tell us that the only permitted use of blood is on the altar, and no other.

But is a blood sacrifice the only means Hashem has given us to atone for our souls?

Absolutely not. Just as a store will allow you to pay by cash, or check, or credit card or food stamps, etc., so too Hashem allows us many way to atone for our souls.

The first step to appreciating this, is to actually look at the quote in the New Testament that missionaries cite to make their case. We will find that not only do they take Tanach verses out of context, but actually do the same thing to the New Testament as well. The entire verse reads:

Hebrews 9:22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Almost all things? I propose that Paul was aware that the atoning effect of blood did not cover everything, and that other means were available for atonement. Let us now examine the Tanach to see examples of where atonement was achieved in ways other than through a sin offering.

Examples:

This they shall give, every one who passes among those who are counted, half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary... The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering to the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls. (NO BLOOD).

Exodus 30:13-15



What if someone cannot afford an animal to sacrifice, is atonement closed to him?



But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering... Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him in regard to his sin that he has sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him; and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meal offering. (NO BLOOD).

Leviticus 5:11 -13

In most cases in the Bible, stories of the forgiveness of sin involve genuine, heart-wrenching repentance, which is really what Hashem desires most.

Bring no more vain offerings; incense of abomination they are to me.... Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the orphan, plead for the widow. (NO BLOOD).

Isaiah 1:13-17



The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, 0 God, you will not despise. (NO BLOOD).

Psalm 51:19

Look at the story of David and the matter of Uriah. David is confronted with his sin, repents and is forgiven

And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. (NO BLOOD).

11 Samuel 12:13

Furthermore, following the Golden Calf:

And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my anger may burn hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of you a great nation. And Moses pleaded with the Lord his G-d, and said, Lord, why does your anger burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand... Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (NO BLOOD).

Exodus 32:9-14

Concerning Nineveh, the Gentile city in the Book of Jonah:

Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness has come up before me...

And the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them, And word came to the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he took off his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes ... And God saw their doings, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, which he had said that he would do to them; and he did not do it. (NO BLOOD)

Jonah 1:2; 3:5-6, 10

Christians may ask, How is it possible to attain atonement without sacrifices? Since no sacrifices have been offered since the Temple was destroyed, Jews offer repentance instead. Christians will then ask, by what authority can we substitute words for sacrifices?

We read in Hosea an admonition from G-d through his prophet for us all.

O Israel, return to the Lord your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the Lord; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of calves.

Hosea 14:2-3

Listen to the prayers of the prophet Daniel who lived during the exile in Babylon. His words of confession:

We have sinned, and have committed iniquity; and have done wickedly and have rebelled, and have departed from your precepts and from your judgments...

Daniel 9:5

And his plea for forgiveness:

To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him... 0 Lord, according to all your righteousness, I pray you, let your anger and your fury be turned away from your city Jerusalem, your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a- reproach to all those who are around us.

Daniel 9:9;16

Daniel asked God for forgiveness for himself and his people. Would Daniel be praying for something he couldn't have because he couldn't offer blood? Of course not. For Daniel knew of Hosea, and Daniel knew of Nathan the prophet's words about King David.

Lastly, we are told what we must do when we have been put out of our land, dispersed among all the nations and want forgiveness. Though this was spoken by King Solomon, it is applicable to us today, and it has nothing to do with blood, or Jesus.

"They shall pray unto the L-rd toward the city which You have chosen ... and say ... We have sinned ... and so return to You with all their heart ... forgive Your people that have sinned.

I Kings 8:44-50

Yes, we as Jews have sinned, in many ways. All of us, and we must follow the words of our prophets to return to G-d.

Message to Messianic Jews

By the path you have chosen, you may have sinned in a very dangerous way, one that threatens to cut you off from the Jewish people, and threatens the eternity of your neshama (soul).

We are told in Deuteronomy 28:64

"And the Lord shall scatter you among all people from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known."

It is important to see that the Jewish belief in G-d has standards. When Moses spoke to his generation of gods "that neither you nor your fathers worshipped", he sought to exclude for all time all foreign views of G-d. Moses and his generation did not worship a trinity. They worshipped the one G-d who revealed Himself at Sinai.

Therefore, realize that it is no small thing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It is idolatry and for a Jew is punishable by koras, the eternal cutting off of your soul. You can do teshuvah (repentance), and without a sacrifice, as your ancestors did. Return to the true G-d and to his people, who will accept you, as you receive forgiveness of sin.

The Resurrection

There is perhaps no belief that Christians hang onto more tightly than their belief in Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Some of them, in fact, will claim that because of their belief in the resurrection, they do not care about any scriptural problems you may show them. Judaism obviously approaches scripture differently. Once again, careful study reveals several problems that are found with the resurrection story as well.

Even if someone is resurrected, that does not necessarily qualify them for being the Messiah. The Prophet Elisha resurrected a child and Jesus himself allegedly resurrected Lazarus. Does that qualify Lazarus as the Messiah?

The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, each gave their own account of the resurrection with major discrepancies. Christians will try to use the discrepancies to bolster their case, saying that totally consistent stories would suggest collusion. Yet, by doing so they must conclude that their stories were then eyewitness accounts. However, none of the Gospel writers were eyewitnesses. If they instead relied on the "Holy Spirit" for their information, why would the "Holy Spirit" give four different accounts?
That Jesus has inspired many people to become better people is wonderful, yet every religion can make this claim. That he has atoned for our sins, that he is the only path to a relationship with G-d, and is the key to eternal life cannot be validated objectively, but are based purely on faith. Besides not portraying the Messiah as a human sacrifice who would die and be resurrected, Jewish scriptures never spoke about a "second-coming". The changes that are to occur when the Messiah comes are all very tangible and verifiable. Since Jesus fulfilled nothing that we required of the Messiah we cannot accept him as such.
the above can be found at
http://www.torahatlanta.com/
god bless you all.






antiaging
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 13 2005, 08:10 AM)
gee, and my bible (jps, traqnslated directly from hebrew by jews, and therefore according to you inferior)


first you claimed that isaiah used betulah, then, when cornered, you quote some christian website, and refused to admit you were wrong the first time.
and the child wasn't even named immanuel!
you don't pray to "Manny Christ", do you?

admit you were wrong, and buy a real bible.king james is very archaic, has hundreds of mistranslations, because it was not from hebrew, and jews use hebrew, the language most of the holy scriptures were written in, with a few passages in aramaic, which you may have heard of.
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I never used the word Betulah, I don't know much Hebrew at all. I said that young woman comes from the corrupted Alexandrian text, and it does. The word almah is used in the corrupted text [The corrupted text did change 5% of the words, but apparently not that one. If I did say that it changed that word, then I was mistaken.] and all of the corrupted texts translate that as young woman. That is the literal translation. They just failed to fit that with the context of what Isaiah was saying in that verse and with the context of every other place where Almah is used. In that verse it is supposed to be a sign, and virgin is a more proper interpretation of Almah, in that verse for 2 reasons.
1 Where ever Almah (or its plural) is used in the Old Testament it is referring to young women that are virgins.
2 It is a sign if a young virgin has a child, and not a sign if a young woman that is not a virgin has a child.
So to sum it up:
It can be translated "young woman" or "virgin", and virgin is the better translation, because it fits with IS.7:14 and the context of the rest of the Old Testament where Almah is used. So, the King James version has it right.
I repeat, the King James translaters were appointed by the King and his court and they were among the best translaters in England. It is also more proper to view the context of a verse and view all other places where that word is used, before you render a translation of any particular word in a verse. This is apparently what the King James translaters did.
antiaging
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 12 2005, 01:23 PM)
it is so nice that christians know how to categorize everyone according to their belief system.i respect new-agers, and unitarians, and i highly respect them.
i actually attend a new-age church from time to time, and my beliefs, while not the same as theirs, are openly accepted by them, some of the nicest people i've ever met.

it is all the same.god hears you.god loves all his creation.religions are here so that we may understand what is beyond us.from what little evidence we have (the n.t.) jesus never claimed to be god, but then again, neither did buddha, but they have been worshipped for over 2000 years.in, again, occultist terms, that means that there is a major thought form on the in-between planes (tibetan buddhists call this the "bardo"), that can be contacted by anyone on earth. god is not the property of any religion.
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Alberto Rivera, former catholic Jesuit priest who became a baptist, said that he was involved in undercover work for the catholic church in the 1960s. He said all religions are infiltrated with catholic spies that work in an undercover capacity. They are trying to pull all faiths under the control of the vatican; that is what the ecumenical movement is about. He said that the Jesuits are in control of the New Age movement at the top and it is a catholic front organization. Of course they will accept all faiths, just so long as you can be led into submitting to the authority of the vatican, or at least be led to not oppose it.
Satan and his devils have deceptions all over this world. Don't take things at face value. (Like Jim Jones, secretly a Jesuit under oath said, "People play games my friend". - He should know, he was a catholic spy playing a jesuit game, according to Rivera.)
[You can read where Rivera pointed out the New Age movement as a catholic front organization in the magazine "the four Horsemen" at chick.com. Click search and enter THE FOUR HORSEMEN.]

Jesus did claim to be the Messiah, and the Messiah is God.
Jesus also used a name of God, "I am" and applied it to Himself.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I am, is what God told Moses that His name is.

Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

It seems to me that Jesus claimed to be both Messiah and God.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. --- [He said that after He rose from the dead, as was seen by over 500 witnesses.]

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


GIDEON MAGE
http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/contents.htm
http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/j4j_no.html
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/cjso/untitle...Truth_page.html
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/cjso/untitle...r/covenant.html
http:http://www.torahatlanta.com/


i will quote a series of previous articles i posted before.
please the following,i am not doing this again, because you guys don't read them, don't believe anything unless it's written by a Protestant, and really don't care.
i found some excellent articles, every one of which is superior than anything i could write.enough, you don't care about real scholarship, anyway
read on, then stop bothering me with your trivia.
Problems with Jesus' Lineage
Was Jesus A Legitimate Heir to The Royal Line of David?
According to Judaism, a primary consideration for a candidate to be our Messiah is he must be a father-son descendant of King David - a line that was traceable even into the early Middle Ages. Jesus lived within that time, and the writers of the New Testament considered it essential that he be shown as David’s descendant. In fact, the New Testament opens up with the words:
The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David…
Matthew 1:1.
To determine whether Jesus was a legitimate heir to David’s line, we will now examine the New Testament. Several problems are found there that help explain why the Jewish people could not accept Jesus as our Messiah.
Who was Jesus’ father? A Contradiction. Most Christians considers Jesus as both the Messiah and the Son of G-d, which poses a contradiction. Who was his father? If it is G-d, then Jesus is not someone of David’s lineage. If it is David, then he cannot be the Son of G-d. The fact that he could have only one father makes being the Son of G-d and the Messiah as mutually exclusive. Which is it?
Christians contend that G-d is his father, and that Jesus got his connection to David through two lineages shown in the New Testament: one in the book of Matthew, the other in the book of
Luke. Our discussion will now deal with those lineages, together with one from the book of
1st Chronicles in the Tanach for comparison. By examining these lineages, we will see that they present quite a problem for the Christian position.
1st Chronicles 3 Matthew 1 Luke 3
David David David
Solomon 7 Solomon 7 Nathan 7
Rehoboam Rehoboam Mattatha
Abijah Abijah Menna
Asa Asa Melea
Jehoshaphat Jehoshaphat Eliakim
Jehoram Jehoram Jonam
Ahaziah X 3 Joseph
Joash X 3 Judah
Amaziah X 3 Simeon
Azariah Uzziah Levi
Jotham Jotham Matthat
Ahaz Ahaz Jorim
Hezekiah Hezekiah Eliezer
Manasseh Manasseh Joshua
Amon Amon Er
Josiah Josiah Elmadam
Jehoiakim X 3 Cosam
Jechoniah 4 Jechoniah 4 Addi
Shealtiel Shealtiel Melki
Pedaiah Zerubbabel Neri
Hananiah Abiud Shealtiel
Shecaniah Eliakim Zerubbabel
Shemaiah Azor Rhesa
Neariah Zadok Joanan
Elioenai Akim Joda
Eliud Josech
Eleazar Semein
Matthan Mattathias
Jacob Maath
Joseph 1, 2, 6, 8 Naggai
Esli
Nahum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Jannai
Melki
Levi
Matthat
Heli
Joseph 1, 5, 6, 8
Point #1: Both lineages end with Joseph (Jesus’ stepfather), yet are extremely different.
How can Joseph have two different lineages? It certainly challenges the credibility of one, if not both of them. The Christian response to this is that the Matthew lineage is that of Joseph, whereas the Luke lineage belongs to Mary. We will now deal with each one to examine their problems.
Concerning Joseph’s Lineage in Matthew.
Point #2: A stepfather is not your father. We are looking, in a sense, to find the path whereby David’s Y-chromosomes (passed father-to-son) reached Jesus. It doesn’t jump from one’s stepfather. Christians will argue that Joseph adopted Jesus, and by doing so gave over the inheritance of the royal line. Yet, just as with the Kohanim (Priests), an adopted son cannot become a Kohane. So, too, a son adopted by a member of the royal line cannot become heir to the throne.
Point #3: Missing Names & Generations. When you compare the Davidic line shown in Matthew against how it is shown in 1st Chronicles, we see that 4 names are eliminated as indicated on the chart. The language in Matthew, for instance, states that Uzziah (same as Azariah) was the son of Jehoram, instead of the son of Amaziah. Christian apologists try to explain this by stating that when it says “this one begat that one”, it implies his ancestor, and not necessarily his father. The problem they create for themselves, is that Matthew states:
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David
until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Matthew 1:17
We can accept that names could be skipped when showing an ancestral line. However, it is not fair to take a lineage that stretched from David to the exile, which included 18 generations, and claim it only contained 14.
Point #4: Joseph himself was not a legitimate heir to the throne. Even if you could get your lineage through adoption, one could only pass on what you rightly own, and Joseph was of an invalid line. In Matthew 1:11 it shows that Joseph was descended from a former king named Jechoniah, or Coniah for short. He was a very wicked king, and was cursed by Hashem. In Jeremiah 22, we see that Jechoniah’s descendants are absolutely cut-off as heirs to the throne. Therefore anyone descended from Joseph was also cut-off as a candidate to be king.
Is this man Coniah a despised broken vessel? An object that no one cares for? Why are they cast out, he and his seed, and banished to a land which they know not? O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord, Write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Jeremiah 22:28-30
Christians will answer that even the Talmud tells us that Jechoniah repented, and that his grandson Zerubbabel became a leader among the Jews. This they claim is proof that the curse was temporary, and was later rescinded. The fact is that Zerubbabel only became a governor. Neither he nor anyone else from this line ever sat on the throne again. The curse remained.
As a descendant of Jechoniah, Joseph’s lineage was not valid. The reality is that very few Christians attach Jesus to David through Joseph anyway, relying more on the line of Mary. Which leads us to wonder, why was the lineage of Joseph even mentioned to begin with?
Concerning Mary’s Lineage in Luke.
Point #5: Mary’s name is not mentioned anywhere in connection to Luke’s lineage. How would we know this is Mary’s line? Some will contend that Heli is really Mary’s father, and when it says that Heli is the father of Joseph, it really means father-in-law. Yet, the New Testament says nothing about who Heli was anywhere, and he is only mentioned here. Others contend that Joseph was also the name of Mary’s father, and that the Joseph mentioned here was really Mary’s father, not husband. The bottom line is that one cannot substantiate this as Mary’s lineage by anything written in the New Testament, but must rely on a Christian oral tradition. This is ironic, since Christians are so adamant in condemning the legitimacy of Jewish oral traditions, insisting on a strict reliance on scripture alone.
Point #6: The royal line is only passed through the father, never the mother. Even if the lineage mentioned in Luke is Mary’s lineage - that presents a problem in of itself. True, one’s Jewishness is passed through the mother, yet one’s tribal inheritance passes through the father. Christians argue that the Book of Numbers shows a case where a father had no sons, and his estate of land went to his daughters, who it is presumed could pass it on to their children. The Jewish position, however, is that this may apply to property, but not to one’s rights to the throne. Yet, even if we were to assume that the lineage could pass through the mother, and we assume that Luke’s lineage did in fact belong to Mary, was Mary’s lineage a legitimate one?
Point #7: David-to-Solomon. According to Judaism, the Davidic line had to pass through David’s son Solomon, and no other son.
As I swore to you by the Lord G-d of Israel , saying, assuredly Solomon your son shall reign after me (David), and he shall sit upon my throne in my place…
I Kings 1:30
Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies around; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.
1 Chronicles 22:9-10
Luke’s lineage shows that Mary is not from Solomon’s line, but rather from another of David’s sons, Nathan (Luke 3:31 ), who was not the royal heir. Since Mary is not from Solomon’s line, she and her descendants do not have a legitimate connection to the royal line of David either.
Point #8: Unlikely Marriage. If in fact the lineage shown in Matthew was Joseph’s (27 generations from David to Joseph), and the lineage in Luke was in fact Mary’s (43 generations from David to Mary), then Mary married someone 16 generations older than herself. Quite unlikely.
Having seen that neither Matthew’s lineage of Joseph, nor Luke’s (supposed) lineage of Mary is legitimate, how can one consider Jesus as a legitimate descendant of David? One cannot. Without this, an honest person cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah, since this is the most important criterion, and Jesus does not have it.
Was Jesus a Prophet?
According to Judaism, the Torah was given to the Jewish people as a guide book for life. We believe that within it is the "blueprint" of Creation, laying out the foundation and principals upon which the Heavens and Earth operate. Regardless of time and location, wherever a Jew will find himself, it will give him insight into what to think and what to do. This was certainly the case when the Jewish people approached the Land of Israel after leaving Egypt. They were prepared.
This also applied to the coming of Jesus 2000 years ago. We will admit that his coming was significant enough that the Torah would prepare us for how to understand someone like him and how to deal with him.
If you were to ask a missionary to show you where Jesus is most openly hinted at in the Torah, they would most likely show you the following.
"I will raise them a Prophet from among their brothers, like you (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Deuteronomy 18:18
"I will raise a prophet ... like ... Moses". They will ask, "Who was a prophet like Moses?" "Whoever will not listen to him, I will require it of him." Who could the Torah be speaking about? They would insist it is Jesus, and that if we do not follow Jesus, G-d would require it of us.
Knowing what we know about how missionaries typically try to build their case, we need to first ask ourselves, what is the full context of this verse? If we read it in its entirety, we see a more complete picture.
"I will raise them a Prophet from among their brothers, like you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken, and the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
Deuteronomy 18:18-22
This passage really serves several purposes.
•It established the authority of all future prophets after Moses is gone. If, when it says "I will raise up a prophet", it refers to only one person, and that being Jesus, where else would Isaiah and Jeremiah get their authority from that we should believe them?
•Even if it did refer to Jesus, what would be Jesus' standing in Jewish eyes?
"And there has not arisen since in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, and in all that mighty hand, and in all the great and awesome deeds which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel."
Deuteronomy 34:10
He, like all other prophets would always be on a lower level than Moses.
•It instructs us on how to distinguish between a true and a false prophet. We are told that when he prophesizes, and the thing he predicts does not come about, we are not to regard him as a true prophet.
Let us now examine the New Testament, to see how Jesus faired as a prophet. In reality he prophesized very little, and we will see how his words measure up to what we were told in Deuteronomy 18:18-22.
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matthew 12:38-40
Here Christians will confidently proclaim Jesus as a prophet, because he foretold his own death and resurrection. The problem is that this prophesy was given to the "scribes and Pharisees". If his prophesy in fact came true, and he was resurrected from the dead, then he should have appeared to them to establish his truth. He did not appear to his doubters, but we have to "trust" his followers that the events of his resurrection in fact came true.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, tin they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Matthew 16:28
Here Jesus is telling his disciples that he shall return before some of them die. Obviously he did not, and has not for 2000 years. What kind of prophet would Deuteronomy 18 deem him to be?
According to the Jewish perspective, we do hold that the Torah speaks clearly about people like Jesus. In fact, it goes into mentioning his miracles and his death. We find this in Deuteronomy 13.
"If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder, comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them'; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your G-d tests you, to know whether you love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your G-d, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall serve him, and hold fast to him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he has spoken to turn you away from the Lord your G-d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to thrust you out of the way which the Lord your G-d commanded you to walk in. So shall you purge the evil away from the midst of you."
Deuteronomy 13:2-6
Hashem here announces that He would send us a miracle-working prophet to test our faithfulness to Him. We are told to not be fooled by miracles. In fact, the major prophets that Christians cite: Isaiah, Jeremiah & Ezekiel are not known for having done any miracles at all. We, instead, value the truth of their words. Ironically, the New Testament tries to validate Jesus, because of his miracles.
"Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?"
John 9:16
In Deuteronomy 13, we are given a standard by which we are to assess all views of G-d that are presented to us, to see if they are real or not. When we are warned not to 'go after other gods, which you have not known', we must honestly ask if a certain view of G-d is how Moses' generation knew it to be. If not, we must not follow it. Therefore, from this chapter, we have learned to reject Jesus as a true prophet, and the myth of the Trinity as well. Because this is a view of G-d "that we have not known."
One last point. We learned before, that since the completion of the Tanach, the Jews have held that the "age of prophesy" ended. This in fact was a motivation behind canonizing the Tanach, since in a sense "that book was closed." Testifying to this, is the fact that the Jews do not recognize any post-Tanach prophets. If Jesus is held to be a prophet, then the only category he could then grouped into would be a "false prophet".
Interestingly, did the prophet Zechariah prophesize about Jesus centuries before he lived? We believe that in the Messianic era, the false prophets will return to confess their error.
"On that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for cleansing and for sprinkling. And it shall come to pass on that day, says the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass from the land. And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother who bore him shall say to him, You shall not live; for you speak lies in the name of the Lord; and his father and his mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies. And it shall come to pass on that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed everyone of his vision, when he has prophesied; nor shall they wear a hairy mantle in order to deceive; But he shall say, I am not a prophet, I am a tiller of the soil; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. And one shall say to him, What are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zechariah 13:1-6
Tampering With The Evidence
In every way, whether in pretense or in truth,
Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.
Philippians 1:18
He who speaks truth gives just evidence;
but a false witness deceits.
Proverbs 12:17
Missionaries want you to believe in the New Testament, and that their claims about Jesus are supported by the Tanach. To examine the believability of these claims, let’s begin by examining how honestly missionaries and the writers of the New Testament use Jewish scriptures.
A careful study of the Tanach, as well as the New Testament, reveals how often deception is used to build the case for Jesus. Since the writers of the New Testament wanted to paint Jesus into the Tanach as often as possible, we will see just how far they will go to make things work. Two key lessons that you should learn from this Study Guide are that:
1) Judaism must include every verse of the Tanach to get the true picture, whether the verse praises us or criticizes us for our worst failings. Missionaries do not and cannot quote every verse. They ignore major sections of the Tanach, because many verses contradict the picture they are trying to fabricate. Just look at their literature, does it or can it ever include:
• “God is not a man, that he should lie…” Numbers 23:19
• “Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.” Psalm 146:3 (Jesus is referred to constantly as the Son of Man.)
2) Furthermore, every verse of “prophecy” they claim to cite from the Tanach, is either:
• Mistranslated or misrepresented;
• Taken out of context;
• Or just made up!
This is a very big claim, so let’s investigate this further.
Setting The Stage
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1st Corinthians 9:20-22
In the passage above, the Apostle Paul showed his willingness to say whatever it took to get people to believe in Jesus. Here he set the example of “the end justifies the means” for all future missionaries. What we will do now is look at several examples to show how much they “tamper with the evidence.”
The Order of The Tanach
A key insight into Christian manipulation begins with something as simple as the order of the Tanach. As we know, the word “Tanach” is an acrostic formed by the first letter of the names of the three sections of the Jewish Scriptures: Torah (The Five Books), Neviim (Prophets), and Kesuvim (Writings). The Tanach was canonized in roughly 500 BCE (over 800 years before the New Testament was canonized) by the Men of The Great Assembly, who obviously placed significance on the order of the books.
When the Church sought to graft the New Testament onto the Tanach and create the “Bible”, many changes in translation and the order of the books were made to make it appear to “flow” better from our book to theirs.
• They obviously felt they had license as “editors” of our Tanach to rearrange its order. As we will see, they will demonstrate this freedom to change other things as well.
• The new order meant that the book could no longer be called the Tanach, and required a new name. They substituted the name “Old Testament”, implying a “New Testament,” which to some means it superseded the old.
• Ending Jewish Scriptures with the book of Malachi flows better into the New Testament book of Matthew than does 2nd Chronicles, since 2nd Chronicles ends with an upbeat message for the Jews. There King Cyrus of Persia gives the Jews permission to return from exile to rebuild their land and their Temple . In typical fashion, the Church tried to avoid showing hopeful messages about the future of the Jews, especially since we rejected Jesus.
Thus said Cyrus king of Persia , ‘All the kingdoms of the earth has the Lord G-d of heaven given me; and He has charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem , which is in Judah . Whoever is among you of all His people, the Lord his G-d be with him, and let him go up!’
2 Chronicles 36:23
Malachi in contrast ends with:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord…
Malachi 3:23
For the Church, this is a great lead-in to the New Testament story of John the Baptist, whom they allege to be Elijah the Prophet, bringing in the Messiah, Jesus. (In the New Testament Book of John, John the Baptist will actually deny being Elijah.)
Misquoting Texts
The New Testament repeatedly claims that Jesus fulfilled Biblical prophecies. The Jewish position is that he did not fulfill any, and that all attempts to make him appear to have done so come from misquoting our texts. This manipulation of our scriptures is done through taking passages out of context, mistranslating words, or even making up quotes! Below are several New Testament (NT) verses, together with their source in Tanach (T). Let us examine how honestly they portrayed things.
TAKING OUT OF CONTEXT
EXAMPLE #1
When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt : And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt have I called my son.”
Matthew 2:14 (NT)
This New Testament story is about Joseph, fleeing with his wife Mary and baby Jesus, shortly after Jesus was born. G-d is quoted as calling His “son” out of Egypt . Looking at this passage as presented in Matthew, it might appear that there was a Biblical notion of a “son of G-d”, and Jesus fulfilled it.
“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt .”
Hosea 11:1 (T)
If you looked at the entire passage in Hosea that Matthew is quoting from, we see that Hosea is clearly referring to the Jewish People collectively as G-d’s “son”. This use of metaphor is common throughout the Tanach, where the Jewish people are referred to repeatedly as G-d’s “son” or “child”, etc.
And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn....
Exodus 4:22
You shall also consider in your heart, that, as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastened you.
Deuteronomy 8:5.
Furthermore, the above verse in Hosea is one of many examples where the New Testament takes a historical event and makes it into a messianic prophesy.
EXAMPLE #2
And leaving Nazareth, he (Jesus) came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulon and Nephthalim: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “The land of Zebulon, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.” The people, which sat in darkness, saw a great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death, light is sprung up.
Matthew 4:13 (NT)
This passage deals with the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, and lists the areas he visited. Matthew wanted to show that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy that the Messiah would also begin his prophecy in these places.
Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory; and it will rise over all its channels, and go over all its banks.... For there is no weariness to him (the king of Assyria) who is set against her, at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulon, and the land of Naphtali, and afterwards he afflicted her more grievously by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
Isaiah 8:7,23 (T)
The 8th chapter of Isaiah is really an historical account of the king of Assyria ’s assault on the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which ultimately led to his taking the ten tribes into exile. The chapter ends with a description of how he afflicted the land of Zebulon , Naphtali, and the Galilee , as opposed to Matthew’s claim that this is a messianic prophecy, fulfilled by Jesus. Notice that Matthew twice eliminates wording about how the subject “afflicted” these areas.
MISTRANSLATIONS
To make the Tanach (T) itself appear to be filled with references to Jesus, Christian translators will even mistranslate some of the Hebrew words. Therefore, not only should we be aware of the deception found in the New Testament, but we must also be wary of Christian translations of what they call the Old Testament (OT) as well.
EXAMPLE #3
Psalm 22:17
For dogs have surrounded me; the assembly of the wicked have encircled me; they pierced my hands and my feet.
Christian Translation (OT).
It appears that the Psalm prophesizes about someone whose hands and feet are pierced. This leads one to think it is hinting at Jesus.
VS
For dogs surround me; the assembly of the wicked encircles me, like a lion (at) my hands and feet.
Original Hebrew (T).
This passage is written by King David about the travails of his life, and is not a messianic prophecy. The word (C’Ari) means “like a lion”, and David uses the word “lion” earlier in the same Psalm to describe his pursuers. If you examine all other places where Christian translators translates (C’Ari) in the Old Testament, they are translated “like a lion”. (Numbers 24:9, Isaiah 38:13, Ezekiel 22:25).
EXAMPLE #4
Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
Christian Translation (OT).
It appears that the Psalm clearly commands us to embrace the Son (of G-d), or else suffer the consequences.
VS
Embrace Purity, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
Original Hebrew (T).
In this psalm, David is admonishing the rulers of the earth on their behavior. “Be prudent… accept discipline…Serve the Lord in awe; tremble with fright.The word means “purity” in Hebrew. Christians try to insert the Aramaic word for “son” into a Hebrew psalm.
Made Up Verses
EXAMPLE #5
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth : that it might be filled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
Matthew 2:23 (NT)
The point of this passage is to show that the Messiah is supposed to be from the city of Nazareth , and to be known for that, as Jesus of Nazareth was. Not only has there never been a requirement for the Messiah to be from Nazareth , but also the quote Matthew cites does not appear anywhere in the Tanach. It was made up! Not even the words “ Nazareth ” or “Nazarene” themselves are to be found as well.
Some Christians attempt to connect this verse with a “nazir”, which is someone who takes an oath of abstinence from wine, etc. However, “Nazir” is spelled with a “zayin “(z), whereas Natzeret ( Nazareth ) is spelled with a by "tzady“ (tz). Others try to make the connection from the description of the Messiah in Isaiah 11, as a “netzar “ (branch) of Jesse (David’s father). Even though the word root is the same, it is clearly not the same quote, and shows no connection to the city of Nazareth .
• EXAMPLE #6
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me.”
Matthew 27:9-10 (NT)
Matthew wants us to think that the Prophet Jeremiah foretold about the 30 pieces of silver that Judas received for betraying Jesus. After feeling remorse, Judas threw them into the Temple before committing suicide. Actually, Jeremiah never said any such quote. The closest we can come up with are a combination of the following:
And Jeremiah said, The word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Behold, Hanameel, the son of Shallum, your uncle shall come unto you, saying, Buy my field that is in Anathoth: for the right of redemption is yours to buy it.
Jeremiah 32:6-7 (T)
And I said unto them, If you think it good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
Zechariah 11:12-14 (T)
One might say that all the examples we have given so far are petty compared to the big picture. Know that the same type of manipulation of scripture is also used for beliefs that are foundational to Christianity. Let’s now examine two of these beliefs.
The Virgin Birth
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14 (Christian Translation)
This is the verse upon which Christianity bases its claim that Jesus was born of a virgin, which is necessary to show that he was the “son of G-d.” As mentioned before, stories of “virgin-births” were common within pagan mythologies, and were readily accepted by pagans. Judaism, on the other hand, never accepted a belief in anything like this.
By now we have seen enough of how some Christian “editors” manipulate Jewish texts to appreciate how this verse has been doctored. Through mistranslating words and taking things out of context, we again see how their “Old Testament” is an invalid representation of our Tanach.
Let us now look a