http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0114/0...pages.asp?Pg=01

Online magazine. Allow pages to load.

that is pure propaganda bs

Intresting points raised, but it sounds like propaganda to me too.

http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html#Contents
Read the online book at that website and see if it looks like propaganda.
Actual historical of account of Yugoslavia during and before WW2. Actual photos, catholic nuns marching with nazi soldiers,
Croatian ustachi killer squads meeting at the vatican
Exerpt from book:
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html#Contents

http://www.reformation.org/archive.html


Book: THE VATICAN’S HOLOCAUST by Avro Manhattan
This type of execution was not exceptional. Some Ustashi specialized in dispatching their
Orthodox prisoners in this manner.

Catholic priests, friars, and, indeed, even some of their pupils, followed their example. The
case of Peter Brzica is undoubtedly one of the most incredible in this category. Brzica was
a law student and an ardent member of the foremast Catholic organization called the
Catholic Crusaders. During the day and night of 29th August 1942, Brzica cut the throats of
1300 prisoners in the Concentration Camp of Jasenovac. He was rewarded with a gold
watch and proclaimed King of Cutthroats. Dr. Nikola Kilolic, a Croat and a Catholic, was
an eyewitness to the deed.

To terrorize the population into becoming Catholic, the Ustashi very often hanged lay
Orthodox Leaders and their Orthodox parish priests during mass executions under the very
eyes of the faithful. This was one of the most tangible methods of "persuasion" whenever
the Orthodox proved obdurate.

During our journey towards the hill of Javor, near Srebrenica and Ozren, all the Serbian
villages which we came across were wholly deserted. But inside the houses very often we find
whole families massacred. We even came across some barrels filled with blood. In the villages
between Vlasenica and Kladanj we discovered children who had been impaled upon stakes,
their small members still distorted by pain, resembling insects stuck upon pins." [6]

Many Catholic lay members and clergy, mostly Croats, helped the Nazis and fought against
their own Government. This they did in order to set up an independent Catholic State of
Croatia once Yugoslav unity had disintegrated. As a reward for their treachery, Hitler
granted the Catholic Croats autonomy under Nazi tutelage. While the rest of Yugoslavia
was turned into Nazi-occupied territory, Croatia became an independent Catholic State,
where the Ustashi leader, Ante Pavelic, assisted by Archbishop Stepinac and blessed by
Pope Pius Xll, initiated the terrible reign of Ustashi terror.

Some of us are already atheist, what other BS they gonna bring on by next?

this is sad really that such propaganda and hateful crap is spread about the vatican

My Dad was in world war 2. My dad told me that the catholic church started world war 2. At the time I had no reason to believe or disbelieve that. My dad told me that when the german prisoners found out that he was catholic, they would tell him that he was on their side.
I once spoke to an old guy that was an intelligence officer in World war 2, named Kurt Elbers. He told me that he had heard about that a long time ago, about the involvement with the catholic church with Hitler and the holocaust.
In the 1950s their were many books in book stores exposing this. But through the efforts of the vatican (picketing the stores etc.) those books were taken off the book shelves.
Get on metacrawler search engine and look up THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE JESUITS, written by catholic French historian Edmond Paris, if you want the historical facts in greater detail. - backed up by references

and my dad once told me the moon was made of cheese


look i have photo graphic evidence






does that make it true ?

Notice this quote forgets to mention the historical signifigance of Croatia as part of Prussia (which included modern day Germany, parts of Poland, Croatia, and several other areas) during WWI. The Croatians were not technically pro-Nazi. They were Pro-Germany as their mother land. For them being part of Yugoslavia is the same as the Israel and Palenstine now. They considered themselves a conquered part of the homeland and waited 30 years to join back with it.

Here is another quote. What do you think on this one?
"The Secret History of the Jesuits", by catholic French Historian, Edmond
Paris [Look up the book on metacrawler search engine.]
I have the book. [The president of Slovakia was catholic
priest Monseigneur Tiso]
it says, Quote:
Let us see now what kind of apostolic gentleness was used by the gauleiter
prelate Tiso toward the Jews: "In 1941, the first contingent of Jews from
Slovakia and upper-Silesia arrive at Auschwitz; from the start those who
were not able to work are sent to the gas chamber, in a room of the building
containing the crematorial furnaces". (77)
Lord Russel of Liverpool, wrote this, a judicial councelor at the trials of
war criminals.
So the Holy See had not "lent" one of its prelates to Hitler in vain. The
Jesuit head of state was doing a good job and the satisfaction expressed by
radio vatican is understandable.
To have been Auschwitz first provider, what a glory for this holy man and
for the whole company of Jesuits! In fact, this triumph lacked nothing. At
the time of the Liberation, this prelate was handed over to Czechoslovakia
by the Americans, condemned to death in 1946 and hanged---the palm for a
martyr!
"Anything done against the Jews, we do it because of our love for this
nation of ours. The love for our fellow-men and the love for our country
have developed into a fruitful fight against the enemies of nazism". (78)
Another high dignitary of the Roman church, in a neighboring country, could
have appropriated this declaration of monsigneur Tiso to himself.
end of quote: pages 143 and 144
I saw on the history channel about Tiso. Those quotes up there are true.
According to the history channel Tiso actually paid money to the Nazis to
take away the Jews to Auschwitz. The Nazi officer demanded payment to make
up for any Jews unfit to work; those are the ones that went to the gas
chamber first.
THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST WAS A 20TH CENTURY CATHOLIC INQUISITION
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_03.asp

In his book FIFTY YEARS IN THE CHURCH OF ROME, former catholic priest Charles Chiniquy had this to say about the Jesuits: "The Jesuits are a military organization, not a religious order. Their chief is the general of an army, not the mere father abbot of a monastery. And the aim of this organization is power. Power in the most despotic excercise. Absolute power, universal power, power to control the World by the volition (will) of a single man. Jesuitism is the most absolute of despotisms (dictatorship); and at the same time, the greatest and the most enormous of abuses." (The most monstrous hurt, injury and damage) "The general of the jesuits insists on being master, sovereign over the sovereign. Wherever the jesuits are admitted they will be masters, cost what it may. Their society is by nature dictatorial, and therefore it is the irreconcilable enemy of all constituted authority. Every act, every crime, however attrocious, is a meritorious work, if committed for the interest of the society of the jesuits, or by the order of its general. page 174, in the book, FIFTY YEARS IN THE CHURCH OF ROME, by Charles Chiniquy. You can read this book online at this website: http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/index.html

According to Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest, who became a baptist preacher:
The Vatican had these contigency plans in case Hitler lost the war:
1. Make everyone believe that the Vatican had nothing to do with the war and, in time, try to convince people that the holocaust never happened.
2. Make sure that rebellious nuns, monks, and priests were also put into the concentration camps to try to convince the world that the catholic church was also persecuted.
3. They ordered catholic families and priests to protect Jews in their homes so this could be used in the future as good public relations material for books and films. Those Jews that were protected had already been converted to catholicism.
4. Put on a new face by setting up the Vatican II council.
5. Set up a communist pope from behind the Iron Curtain to please the communists and try to convert them to catholicism. This was Pope John 23rd.

Read what the press of the Catholic, Spanish dictator, Franco, published on the 3rd of May, 1945, the day of Hitler's death. It said, "Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity." It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. It goes on to say, "Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory." This funeral oration of Adolph Hitler was voiced by the Holy See itself, under the cover of Franco’s press. It is a communique of the Vatican via Madrid.
Hitler himself stated, "I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits. Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose, on the earth, than the hierarchical organization of the Catholic church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party."
Reference: the Godfathers magazine at the website in the orginal post on this thread.

[quote=et's daddy,Feb 15 2005, 12:24 AM]
and my dad once told me the moon was made of cheese


dmgspycat: That was a lame retort. I don't know if it is true or not either but considering some of the Church's past attrocities like the inquisition, helping nazi's escape to S.America and covering up the death of Pope Luciani in 1978, I wouldn't doubt it one bit.

Religion has always been used as a tool to control the masses. The sooner ALL parties involved realise that, the better...

its looks to much like propaganda, the story is all too convenient although some of it might be true.
maybe its just better to be an atheist since it seems that almost every religion is corrupted in some ways.

I heard that Pope John Paul II had a job in WWII delivering gas for the gas chambers.

And, the Hebrew God said he would punish the Jews all the days of their lives. So Adolph Hitler was serving the Hebrew God by killing and persecuting the Jews. The Catholic Church serves the Hebrew God. So it all makes sense to me.

Because yes, a Religion is corrupt that says a Loving Father would kill, punish, persecute, deceive, torture, damn the Souls, fill their ears with wax and cover their eyes with wool, rape the children, etc. etc. etc.

The Loving Father that Jesus spoke of was the One that created all the civilizations that were destroyed by the Hebrew God and his armies. That's why Jesus was silenced by the Priests of the Hebrew God for "Blasphemy." Why Joan of Arc was called a Heretic, Witch and Sorcerer, because she served the Loving Father and not the Hebrew God that liked killing anyone that spoke of another God just as Jesus did.

next they are going to tell us Stalin was a inquisitor

Who was talking about Stalin? I believe we were talking about Hitler and the Vatican.

i clearly was not talking about hitler and the vatican

On metacrawler search engine, there is an online book called, THE VATICAN IN WORLD POLITICS, by Avro Manhattan.
There are several chapters that deal with the vatican involvement with Hitler and the German Reich. It is historically accurate and well documented with references.

Out of curiosity... what religion are you?

Born again saved Christian. Beliefs are defined by the King James version Bible.
Primarily the New Testament since the New Testament is in effect now. Some parts of the Old Testament do still apply now. The King James version is the most accurate to the way it was originally written.

I was reading the link you have posted. I found it pretty much anti-Roman Empire i.e. it condemns the Roman-Pagan religion. Yet, your very own New Testament originated and basically approved by an Roman Emperor who just about started the Catholic Church. So by following the N.T. are you worshiping Roman Gods with different names?, as stated in the link you posted.

Also, Jesus has stated to that the Old Testament is the true word of God. If you are a faithful how can you be allowed to pick and chose what was written as you state:"Some parts of the Old Testament do still apply now". If so, why just some?

When Jesus meant that one must be born again , did he not mean it in spirit. Not just claim to a new religion called "Born Again" and fanatically follow ONLY Jesus or else. It is fact that many religions stress this point of being "born again (spirit)" in a way... i.e. Native Americans who have much work with the spirt.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot enter• into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be aborn again."

In my humble opinion it states that we need to develope a spirit . Can it be done with out fanatically claiming Jesus or straight out conversion?

I agree that the Roman-Catholic church has done some horrendous things, but to the reasonable mind the link you posted seems to be a view blown way out of content

The real New Testament has nothing to do with the pagan Roman idols.
The New Testament was not originated or approved by a Roman Emporer. The New Testament books were completed before AD 100. The emporer Constantine was in AD 313 or there about. The Real New Testament was never approved by Constantine or the catholicism he invented by mixing pagan roman religion with Christianity. The Books of the New Testament were corrupted in Alexandria Egypt by gnostic heretics and Egyptian philosophers in the 4th century. Constantine approved the corrupted manuscripts from Alexandria Egypt for the catholic bibles. The King James version comes from the Textus receptus or Byzantine text. Protestants were burned at the stake for even having copies of it. The textus receptus is the real unaltered original New Testament, from which the King James version New Testament is translated.
Partial List of Corrupt New Versions
AMP Amplified Version ASV American Standard Version CEV Contemporary English Version KJ21 21st Century King James Version NAB New American Bible (RC) NASB New American Standard Bible NCV New Century Version NIV New International Version NIVI New International Version Inclusive NKJV New King James Version NLT New Living Translation (The Book) NRSV New Revised Standard Version RSV Revised Standard Version RV Revised Version TEV Today's English Version (Good News For Modern Man)

The manuscripts from which the textus receptus was taken are the majority of the Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. The King James was translated from these manuscripts. There are 5,309 surviving Greek manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament. These manuscripts agree together 95% of the time. The other 5% accounts for the differences between the King James and the modern versions. The textus receptus, King James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from Alexandrian Egypt; these are the corrupted manuscripts in question. Manuscripts from which the modern versions are translated includes the textus receptus plus the vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. The catholic bibles also use corrupted manuscripts from Alexandria mixed in with the Latin vulgate, and use the apocrypha which are fiction stories. The modern versions had to use the textus receptus since it contains the majority of the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that when the textus receptus disagreed with the vaticanus or sainaiticus, they preferred these corrupted manuscripts over the textus receptus. That accounts for the 5% corruption in the modern versions. Where the textus receptus and the vaticanus and sinaiticus do not agree, it is because Marcion, 120 - 160 AD or Origin 184 - 254 AD [or whoever] corrupted those two manuscripts. (The vaticanus and sinaiticus disagree with each other over 3000 times in the gospels alone.)
The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts agree together. They have been passed down through the centuries by true Bible believing Christians. In 1516 Erasmus compiled and printed the Greek (textus receptus) the received text, from these manuscripts. This is the text that the protestants of the reformation knew to be the Word of God, from which the King James Bible was translated.

John Burgon, who spent years studying the texts wrote:
Sinaiticus is extremely unreliable. On many occasions, 10, 20, 30, 40, words are dropped through very carelessness. Letters, words or whole sentences are frequently written twice over or begun and immediately cancelled. A whole clause omitted, because it happens to end in the words of the clause preceeding happens 115 times in the New Testament.
The above is excerpts from the book:
Lets Weigh the Evidence: Which Bible is the Real Word of God? By Barry Burton. Find it here:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0184.asp

That Roman paganism you are talking about got into catholicism and the Greek and Russian orthodox churches. That paganism is not in the teachings of the Real New Testament, of the King James Bible.
Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman
p.359
To Newman, when he wrote Christian, he was referring to catholicism and not protestantism.

If you really knew what the Bible says, you would know that the Old Testament was abolished. The New Testament is in effect now. The Old testament has in it prophecies that a New Testament would come and prophecies about end time events. Those parts of the Old Testament still apply. Also words of Wisdom in the proverbs, and psalms still apply. The writings of Jesus and the apostles that talk of parts of the Old Testament show that those particular parts of the Old Testament still apply. The vast majority of Jewish commandments and ordinances about animal sacrifice and unclean meats, etc. have been abolished.

You need to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour for your sins to be forgiven, according to the New Testament. He died on the cross as an atoneing sacrifice to pay for the sins of mankind. If you believe in Jesus then He paid the punishment for your sins, and you don't need to pay for it, and you will be forgiven. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you will pay for your own sins.
The reason that Jesus could pay for the sins of others by dying on the cross is because Jesus is the only man that ever lived that never committed any sins. God became a man, in the form of Jesus Christ, and only God living as a man could acheive living a life without sin, on this Earth.

Roman catholicism did do horrendous things, and through a large undercover network that they have, they are still doing horrendous things. in secret.
Go to this website and read the extreme oath of the Jesuits:
http://www.reformation.org/oath.html
Some Jesuits, working in undercover work, still take this oath.

That is an outrages website and plain wrong. Pure propagandas.

no post, changed my mind.

The Burning Times are centered in the time between the mid-15th and the early 18th centuries, but lynchings and burnings continued into the late 19th century in Europe and Latin America. Early Christians considered anyone not Christian a witch, and the idea that witches should be burned alive at the stake (hence "The Burning Times") first originated with St. Augustine, who said that Pagans, Jews, and heretics would burn forever in Hell unless saved by the Church. The Inquisition lumped witches into the category of "heretic", meaning those that had renounced God and formed a pact with Satan. Fire is seen as the element of purification, and only fire could so purify a witch that they could be saved.

According to Jean Bodin, a 16th century demonologist, in his De la Demonomanie des Sorciers:
"Even if the witch has never killed or done evil to any man, or beast, or fruits, and even if he has always cured bewitched people, or driven away tempests, it is because he has renounced God and treated with Satan that he deserves to be burned alive... even if there is no more than the obligation to the Devil, having denied God, this deserves the most cruel death that can be imagined.
Not all witches were burned at the stake; witches were hanged in England and America. Witches were given the mercy of strangulation prior to burning in France, Scotland, and Germany. Nonetheless, many were burned alive if they recanted their "confessions" or did not seem properly penitent for their "crimes". Oh, and all expenses for the trial, the inprisonment, and the actual execution were billed to the deceased's relatives or estate.

There is no way to count how many were killed on the charges of Witchcraft; estimates range from 300,000 (during only 150 years of the Inquisition) to over a million, with over 100,000 in Germany alone where the most virulent witch-hunts took place. This was a substantial part of the population, especially since the population was still recovering from the ravages of the Black Plague. In 1233 Pope Gregory IX instituted the Roman Catholic tribunal known as the Inquisition in an attempt to suppress heresy. In 1320, the church (at the request of Pope John XXII) officially declared Witchcraft and Paganism as heretical movements and a "hostile threat" to Christianity. Witches had now become heretics and the persecution against all Pagans spread like wildfire throughout Europe. (It is interesting to note that before a person can be considered a heretic, he or she must first be a Christian, and Pagans have never been Christians. They have always been Pagans.) The single most influential piece of propaganda in this campaign was commissioned by Pope Innocent VIII in 1484 after he declared Witchcraft to be a heresy. He instructed the Dominican monks Heinrich Kraemer and Jacob Sprenger to publish a manual for witch-hunters. Two years later the work appeared with the title Malleus Malificarum, or The Witches' Hammer. The manual was used for the next 250 years in the Church's attempt to purify the Christian faith.

"He must not be too quick to subject a witch to examination, but must pay attention to certain signs which will follow. And he must not be too quick for this reason: unless God, through a holy Angel, compels the devil to withold his help from the witch, she will be so insensible to the pains of torture that she will sooner be torn limb from limb than confess any of the truth. But the torture is not to be neglected for this reason, for they are not equally endowed with this power, and also the devil sometimes of his own will permits them to confess their crimes without being compelled by a holy Angel."

-- Kramer and Sprenger, the Malleus Maleficarum
One of the most sobering things about the Burning Times is that most of the slain were not Pagans, they were devout Christians falsely accused. Isn't it convenient that the Church inherited all the money and all the lands of anyone convicted of Witchcraft? It also disolved into denominational prejudice, because Catholics would accuse Protestants of Witchcraft and the Protestants would do the same thing to the Catholics.
Victims were persecuted, brutally tortured, often sexually molested or raped, and then executed by Church authorities. Once denounced, a suspected Witch was arrested and then hideously tortured into a confession. Suspects were subjected to thumbscrews, the rack, boots which broke the bones of the legs; they were deprived of sleep, starved and beaten. At times, hundreds of suspected Witches were killed in a day. A more complete description of the different methods of torture is discussed here.
Witchcraft in England was made an illegal offense in the year 1541, and in 1604 a law decreeing capital punishment for witches and Pagans was adopted. Forty years later, the thirteen colonies in American also made death the penalty for the "crime" of Witchcraft. By the late 17th century, the followers who remained loyal to the Old Religion were in hiding and true Paganism had turned into a secret underground religion.
The burning executions themselves were great public displays. After sentencing, the condemned only had to wait until the stake was erected and the fuel collected before they were tossed on the flames to writhe and die. In Scotland a little more respect was shown; the days before an execution were days of fasting and stern prayer. The witch was strangled first, and then her corpse-- or sometimes her unconcious or semi-conscious body-- was tied to a stake or dumped in a tar barrel and set on fire. If she was not dead and managed to stumble out of the fire, onlookers pushed her back in.
What started it? What caused relatively good people to throw their neighbors onto bonfires and cheer as they died? Prejudice, ignorance, and fear. Is it over yet? Depends on what you mean. The bonfires have stopped (at least in the "civilized world"- they are still burning in rural Africa), but there is more than one way to be burned. People are still persecuted for Witchcraft, still lose their children over Paganism, and still have their lives threatened even today. The legacy of 300 years of torture and death lives on.

So Pagans burned Pagans???

This is the biggest load of BS i have ever read. The vatican created communism? The people who actually believe this BS havent read history. Communism and the Vatican were arch enemies. Communism wanted to destroy all religions, including Chistianity, and the vatican through the pope John Paul II helped Eastern European countries get rid of communism.

So this history is just BS.

Hey antiaging how old r u? Do you really believe all this bullcrap?

That link says: -the Vatican supports Fidel Castro 100%... lol what a bunch of lies. Fidel Castro executed priests and destroyed a lot of Churches just like Stalin did in the Soviet Union.

Link says: -The Vatican worked together with Marx and Engels... another lie, both in the "Communist Manifesto" express that ALL religions should be eliminated because they are the reasons why many wars started (in their opinion). So how the hell can the Vatican support someone who trashes it?

There are so many lies in that comic that its really ridiculous.

The church is not innocent, but that link its just pure BS.