April 30, 2001


In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp. Opeation Northwoods

Interesting, as I read this I wonder why would these documents be unclassified?

dmg...I hope you are still out there. I have some information on Operation Mongoose. Attention to the last paragraph where it states that the pretext or pretexts for military invasion... had no evidence, that it was carried out. Going into the site there is more information on the entire subject.

here

Governments all over the world do things.......what do you think?

Why dont you keep this conspiracy theory stuff in the appropriate section?

Agreed. Moved.

does anyone remember the article regarding weapons that would make soldiers so incredibly horny that they rape each other?

if 20 years from now, a soldier were to rape another soldier...does that mean that the US has these weapons and are secretly using them?


To claim 9/11 was some big inside job essentially denies the last 40 years of islamist aggression lol

It may be potentially 'government gone wild', but the plan(s) detailed in the Northwoods document were never carried out and may just have been an intellectual exercise by megalomaniac wannabes with too much time on their hands. It wouldn't surprise me to find out there's a plan that exists that details the invasion of Canada, or even our nation's response to an alien attack.

Even so, that plan has simple, straight-forward, and well thought out methods for achieving a desired result. Can't deny that.

The "plan" supposedly associated with 9/11 is needlessly complex and exceedingly full of holes. Way too many unnecessary steps, observable events for a clandestine mission, the list goes on.

At least give the government credit to come up with a plan that isn't a Mission Impossible episode reject.

it seems you have researched the documents and thats good but its important not to miss the section contained within them that states

not only does it go into detail about the possible scenarios but they "admit" to using the same type of "operation" in the past to start the war with spain
USS MAINE

Suno...That was a really interesting site. I looked back on the unclassified documents and can't find anywhere where they said they admitted to attacking 'the Maine'. They didn't admit any such thing, they said they would use 'the Maine' as an example or model to follow. Meaning the events that transpired, could or might be duplicated. Not the actual attack, which was by the Spanish.

I'm actually quite convinced that the Spanish had nothing to do with the sinking of the Maine. From my studies of the Spanish American War, my opinion it was an accident that was portrayed as an attack to stir up anti Spanish sentiments in the US. I don't believe it was blown up 'Northwoods style', however.



Interesting. My take on that was they are talking about using the incident to start the war, not necessarily causing it to start the war. I can see your take on it however.

My point, which I've talked about in another post (somewhere here) is that predisposition is an evil thing in investigations. Just because there may have been some dirty dealings concerning the Spanish American War doesn't automatically prove that anything else is dirty. For example, even though I admit nefariousness concerning the Maine (The Mexican American War a half century earlier has some other examples) I refuse to accept the theory that Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen. I can take each issue separately, study them both, and come to different conclusions about each case.

I will admit, sonofone, that the Northwoods document is a pretty scary piece of literature. It doesn't surprise me, however, and I suspect that many nations and governments throughout history have played the same theoretical games.

I don't think the entire government is corrupt and evil (you seem to sometimes IMO), and I can imagine that the entire idea of Northwoods horrified people in the loop who read it. I believe it was a foolish intellectual exercise born out of cold war paranoia. 1962 was a prime paranoia year. I believe the think tank type document was thought about, then scrapped because of fear of what the Soviets would do if they ever found out.

But that said, I certainly can see why documents like that would concern you. It's a valid concern. I just can't see using it as any proof of anything concerning 911, except for the fact that some think tank thought about stuff like that 40 years before.

Hey twinstead...I just read your take on operation Northwoods... I have to admit, you are not so bad in that you can see where some of us are coming from on the Northwoods issue...you are right to say that it was a scary piece of literature...it is.
You know what makes Nrthwoods really scary is that you can see a pattern throughout history...no matter what country, no matter what time period ,there is always subterfuge. It goes with power. However, generalizations aside, names ,faces times and dates can be applied in our own time period to the many attrocities launched against the populace. Speaking of the U.S., I can say that what happened in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Cuba, Veitnam, were all related to powerful colonialist efforts that have nothing to do with democracy or elected governments. Some of the people behind these events are dead but thier legacy goes on. Take Germany for example...it is not enough to say Hitler was a bad guy, or he was solely responsible. Hard to believe that American and British interests were at stake eh? How could it be that we were losing our sons and daughters in a war that was created by us in the first place. You should read a good book by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin called "the unauthorized biography of George HW Bush". ...amazing insight about how countries really operate beneath the thin veneer of patriotism. How is it that the greatest war criminals who created Nazi Germanys Socialist empire, walked free after the war? To add insult to injury, how is it that they have the audacity to make one of thier own a President? Sometimes events are what they are, just as they happen...but how would anyone ever know? Does it not help to learn the MO of the powerful that run the "State"? Northwoods wasn't a first...just a piece of a larger puzzle.

Well my theory is that the government might have sent in the planes into WTC, and a missile into the Pentagon, in order to justify an invasion of Iraq, which has been perfectly exicuted already, but the REASON for going into Iraq could be to get oil, to get a stronghold in the middle east, where all the oil is, and to be buddy-buddy with neighboring countries.

Honestly, that makes little sense and theres no evidence of it. THey could have better tailored it to implicate Iraq if they staged 911...

dmgspycat, even though I may not share your world view, I have seen enough in my life to completely understand why you would believe that. Maybe I have a chemical unbalance in my brain, but I do not believe that there is some sort of unified theory of conspiracy. I do not believe the Illuminati are controlling us behind the scenes, or do I believe in any ruling cabal of elites.

I have a healthy distrust of government because I think they have a tendency to be incompetent. As far as being power hungry, yea, they are. I do refuse, however, to single out GWB or the US government in that respect because concentrating on that in my opinion minimizes the fact that ALL governments do that. I have a deep mistrust of many European governments, for example, because I believe they are hypocritical.

I did not vote for Bush, nor do I consider myself to be a Republican. In fact, I consider Bush to be a poor president who would not have been re-elected had the Democrats fielded a viable candidate. I do not, however, consider him to be the Antichrist, a child molester, or evil incarnate.

But I refuse to jump on the ideological merry-go-round that so many gleefully ride concerning our government. I have debated many anarchists and have emerged frustrated beyond belief. I am reminded of the rhetoric that many Russians must have heard from the Bolsheviks concerning the overthrow of the Czar. I wonder just how many of them had second thoughts after the murder of the Romanov during the rules of Lenin and Stalin.

Anyway enough of my rant.

I tend to agree with Stellar in many respects. If 911 was a ploy to get us to attack Iraq for their oil, and it was all fabricated, you'd think these master conspiracy planners who pulled off the fake of the century would have made it much more obvious it was Saddam who perpetrated the deed.

Because not only would it have to fool the rube who probably wouldn't even know the difference between Osama and Saddam, but this plan needed to fool expert structural engineers, demolition experts and avionics experts; you can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

Incredibly complex conspiracies like 911, in my opinion, have little if any chance of succeeding.

thats the intentional grand design and the theology in this quote from Adolph Htiler--
******************************************************************
Infamous Quote from Adolf Hitler

"The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed,
for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more
easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The
primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a
big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies,
but would be ashamed to tell big lies."
by:

Adolf Hitler
(1889-1945) German Nazi Dictator
Date:

1935
Source:

Mein Kampf, p. 197(?) 14th Edition.

sonofone it's all about evidence, not about Hitler. Quoting Mein Kampf may work for some but it has no effect on me.

Show me the money

Could you sumarize the biography? I would like to know the MO of the powerful...will you elaborate?

I thought the war criminals or most of them were tried and convicted, and sent to prison or their death.

I don't have any background in history, but I find this thread fascinating. I don't understand how this material, although it is fascinating, ties in with the topic. Could you explain what you are saying with this and I'd like to know what this material refers to.

I agree. It doesn't really tie in at all. I think sonofone is equating what is going on now to what went on in Nazi Germany.

history is a fascinating thing. The full story is very seldom known, and many people have a distorted version of history. I think sonofone will agree with me that quite often things are not what they seem. We will probably always disagree though about just what those things are, but studying them is fascinating.

Babs,
The quote from Mien Kampf was to demonstrate that big conspiracies are easier to pull off than small ones because people have a hard time believing that it could be done. Here we have Hitler himself to quote...one of the grandmasters of conspiracies. Germans at the time wouldn't believe that societies undesirables were being exterminated by the State but they were...evidence after the war proves it. Hitler had his hands in it from the beginning but deniability served him well. Hell, for that matter, he was made Time Magazines Man of the Year in 1939 well after commiting human rights attrocities...go figure. There are many events in US history that were conspiratorial in nature like this Operation Northwoods plan...how easy would it have been to carry it through? How easy would it have been to convince the so called experts that it was a real attack by Cuba? How many people like us would have been ridiculed for believing the attack was committed by our own military? How many people in the military would have carried out thier orders never knowing the truth about Operation Northwoods...see how easy it is to convince people otherwise? I know this is not direct proof that 9-11 was an inside job but this is an eye opener to show you that how easy it could have been pulled off if it was.

the quote is a powerful reminder of "how" evil men think-the issue with the northwoods documents is much the same,it is not related to 9/11 yet is a powerful demonstration of how "evil" men think- the biggest problem with those of us tryng to convince the masses of a govt cover up,concerning the mic's collaboration with silverstein in order to use it in the same fashion described in the NW doc.'s,is that it is unbelievably hard to believe and by relating the hitler quote to the NW doc.'s i am trying to imply that the scope of 9/11 was intentional and part of a grand design known as far back as 1930's-its important to note how bush happens to be tied to the nazi party through his grandfather(who had millions seized for business dealings with ig farben who financed the majority of concentration camps) and uncle harriman who supplied all the steel for the nazi regime

I'm getting it now. I understand twinstead and dmgspycat, but Sunofone you are getting in deep for me. I understand how you are bringing a conspiracy into this, now, but what is this 'nazi grandfather' Bush connection?

The problem is predisposition. While some people believe conspiracies must be taken on a case-by-case basis, others are suspect of anything a government does because of past issues, and begin any investigation based on a predisposed opinion of guilt.

For the life of me, even though I tend to disagree with this predisposition, I have a hard time blaming those who do, because of what governments are capable of doing.

In other words, although I think it is bad investigation to start with a certain opinion, government's past activities make it hard sometimes not to.

Predisposition is important, we need to take that into consideration. You guys make such good points and I see all of your points. I agree with every one of you. As I don't have a history background, and I think everything you guys have said sounds so good, I don't think I will be doing much debate. I will just sit back and learn.

The problem with predisposition is that it pretty much negates almost everything in any investigation. That is the catch 22 of the debating world.

[quote=Babs,Mar 20 2005, 01:43 PM] what is this 'nazi grandfather' Bush connection?

On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Grandpappy Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)

The UBC was established to send American capital to Germany to finance the reorganization of its industry under the Nazis. Their leading German partner was the notorious Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who wrote a book admitting much of this called "I Paid Hitler."

There is much more at these links if you wish to delve into the long and sordid dealings between the Shrub family and "evil empires". JR Ewing looks like a choirboy in comparison.
http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm
http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

turbonium you realize that you are blurring the line between fact and conjecture...

Please back up your statement - these are facts, in the public record.

But how these facts apply to current events is what is conjecture. The sites you provide can NOT be considered objective. Objectivity is crucial in situations like this where emotions tend to run deep.

Do you consider your sources completely unbiased?

I didn't mean to imply they are connected. I'm just responding to a question regarding the Bush-Nazi connection. It also shows the lack of moral conscience that seems to run down the line in the Bush family.
As well, the sites I post links to are to point to these facts regarding the Bushes - I can find other sources if you like, but those facts will still remain the same.

I don't know about that twin...there is a pretty concerted effort to do the opposite of what the people in this country want. After WW2, the people and corporations involved walk free while the littlle guy gets it in Nurembourg. The people who put this grand design together like Allen and John Foster Dulles go to the State dept. and the CIA...Rockefeller Standard oil is still going strong. These people were so powerful that any committee investigating thier complicity was simply quashed. Whether it is the war on drugs...dealing with the Nazis or whitewashing the Kennedy assassination investigation you will see the same powerful people behind our neautral government pulling the strings. Same families...same MO. Take Will Stamps Farrish for example...after WW2 he was investigated for Trading with the Enemy...his reputation was ruined and he left work from Standard Oil. Died from depression soon after...but his son is now ambassador to the Court of St.James. He and the Royal Family do alot of business together and they hang out at the Kentucky Derby. Birds of a feather flock together. Think they don't work out the next country to invade for the profits of BP(british Petroleum)? Why not, isn't Iran a perfect example, referring to the Shah and that whole ordeal in the 1950's? Just as a sidenote...remember Norman Schwarzkoff? Gulf War1991? It was his father who taught the Shahs secret police under the auspice of the CIA. All for the petro. and the BP. Thats what the whole invasion was all about. Thats what it is always about...colonialism for profit. Destroy a country from within and set up a puppet dictator, keep the people down and uneducated and reward those who sell out. This has been going on for a long time twin...it is just history. Some of us take the time to read about it all and put it together but when we share it with people who don't know that much about it we get branded as conspirasists...lol Not implying that we are always are right . Just grounded in history...and history speaks for itself.

dmg....What do you mean destroy a country from within and set up a puppet dictator_ keep the people down, uneducated, and reward the sell outs? And then what. How does this thing work?

I see what you mean as far as being branded off-hand as conspiracists for just bringing things up, but I don't agree that history speaks for itself. Even though it is supposed to be an objective record of events, history is about as subjective as it gets. No matter what, the historical record can be spun to support just about any ideology and world view.

History is filled with nations doing things in their own self-interest that unfortunately conflicted with the self interest of another nation.

Superpowers from the earliest Tigress and Euphrates nation-states, to the Babylonian, Greek and Roman empires, to the Mongols, to the early Muslim Caliphates, to the Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, and British Empires, to the Soviet Union and The US have, in the name of self interest, pretty much done the same things.

Basically, it's when one 'puts it all together' that ideological bias can rear its ugly head. I tend to take a mundane view of history, IE what is happening now is what has always happened, and will continue to happen long after the US is gone; we are no more 'evolved' now than we have ever been in our history.

I think people tend to be too myopic about history and consider the times they live in to be the pinnacle of achievement, and things that are happening during their time have some deep significance, when in reality we are just an eye blink in history.

I am particularly interested in the fact that many people single out the US for doing things in our self interest as a nation, while ignoring that every other nation does the same thing. Europe's shameful profiteering from the oil for food program and the sanctions against Iraq are at least as bad as ours was. Their complicity with the US in arming Saddam with weapons and chemical warfare technology prior to the first Gulf War seems to be completely ignored by some.

All governments are at their best self serving. The US is like a bull in a china shop most of the time; our foreign policy is pretty irritating to put it mildly. I consider it to be self serving, not evil.

From everything you've said, I agree with that twin... I see it that way too.

Colonialism and imperialism. How are they profitable? I mean I have a general idea, but how does it work exactly?

How does Colonialism amd imperialism jive with the American character?

Babs,


On the upper level you have people that run organizations or corporations that are vital to a countrys existence...like railroads, telecommunications, military research, leaders of commodities markets, heads of banks like the World Bank and such. Well, not always do a countrys democratic ideals or fair regulations go hand in hand with their interests so these people rebel against the elected government and with their money and influence they put people in governmental positions that are favorable to thir interests.
With that MO in mind, they work quite the same overseas in foreign countrys through programs like USAID(for example), it is a new way of colonialism, while the appearance has changed the outcome is the same. A country that has been subverted usually loses its democratically elected leader in order for the colonialist superpower to put in someone more favorable to international corporations who usually seek oil, gold, diamonds or other resources at a pittance. The only people that make out are the puppet dictator and the corporations involved in the venture. Usually the people at large receive nothing...no rights, no education, no better way of living. They end up living in a brutal police state. If a country doesn't give in then the superpower forces an embargo on the country in hopes of turning the people against their leader who was looking out for his/her people in the first place.
This kind of exploitation is what causes real hatred and terrorism in the world. Wether it is the US, UK, Russia, Holland or France...even Japan...all are guilty of colonialism. I hope that the day comes when clean technology and wisdom will put an end to this type of world.
But these times are different than any other...we are heading towards a one world system by default and I fear that the voice of the people will get lost in translation. If the worlds colonialist forces continue to dominate world politics then it will be disastrous for indigenous peoples. We do more than just look out for *our* interests. We kill for them.

Well said, spycat. I couldn't have put it any better than you did.

Thank you, dmgspycat. That is very interesting.

Because not only would it have to fool the rube who probably wouldn't even know the difference between Osama and Saddam, but this plan needed to fool expert structural engineers, demolition experts and avionics experts; you can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all of the time.

Incredibly complex conspiracies like 911, in my opinion, have little if any chance of succeeding.
[right][snapback]531629[/snapback][/right]



Actually 9-11 would be very simple to conspire especially when on first contemplates all possible explanations prior to implementing the plan.

First you remember that it's only a conspiracy if you are not in on it! or if you perceive it to be so! conspiracy is merely a label often only legally associated with
street level dealers. You know those crafty 13 and 14 year olds selling marijuana to willing participants.

So for arguments sake lets say that because of the 1996 truck bombing of the World trade Centers garage area - where of course the most stress would be distributed - the building was non publicly determined to be unsafe and liable of
at least partial internal collapse at some given point in the future. though to implode the buildings would cost so much more than New York is worth as a materials of a city. you would have to among many other things :

- Remove the glass and portions of the entire facade in the towers

- board up the glass in the surrounding buildings and tarp them

- temporarily move all residential quarters including hotel space and or

compensate them for their lost earnings during implosion and cleanup

- Compensate all Wall Street trading that would need to close for implosion

- Aquire all the necessary permits, including EPA, and DEP
permits since weall saw how much dust and smoke they made when they fell.

- Not to mention actually pay for the clean up.

So given these among many more requirments to implode two 110 story buildings that were too structurally damaged by a truck bomb five years prior. A plan is devised - sure some governmental employees would be involve or at least have knowledge though it's not necessary - that would actually in many ways make money through certain residual industrial platforms. though certainly wouldn't cost
any small group of individuals the exhorebent amount it would to implode those buildings legally. The public pays for the clean-up, Products are sold, religion is revived, demons are appointed, contracts are granted, and a new building gets built which you make sure to build with some foreign bought steel so the public doesn't cry steel workers conspiracy.

by what ever piloting means ( perhaps you hire from the same bunch that tried to blow it up in the first place -every body gets what they want - though you must ask yourselves why they would hit the same target twice regardless of its upright position. I don't believe their is any other account of major terrorism werein the same target was hit twice. it's usualy hit it and move to the next ) you know you are going to hit these buildings at a certain height. The same kind of blast radius programs used to support the deisel fuel theory could be used to determine where best to introduced 'accelerants' ( i.e explosives, corrosives,flamables ) in stress primary places in internal beams. This way a structural engineer would be convinced that heat melted the steel frame - which it did, though you just gave it that little extra insurance - because having the building built you know the standards by which the engineer will base his/ her judgement. So as the the convincing collapse begins several other 'accelerants' are placed on lower floors to ensure that the building is completely collapsed. It's not hard to time something like that - just watch pink floyd play in utter unison to their light and screen show - and the seismology is hidden in the quake of the collapsing building.

The major flaw comes into the picture in that. Here the media - who did publish many articles prior to 9-11 about possible strikes - has a plane hitting the towers that were bombed just five years before, then a second. Both were incredibly caught on tape, and yet they were not so convicted to get the story from the nations defense center so as to have media trucks at the Pentagon when that plane hit. They tracked O.J. in his white Bronco! Thats the major key to revealing what was obviously a very public appeasing plot to cheaply implode two of the
largest skyscrapers in the world - an feat that by legal means would probably cost Bill gates nearly his whole net worth !

Experts are fooled all the time. Experts build fire wall software that is often hacked by the youngest of culprits. Some one is fooling someone in this scenario. either the selling of the fire wall software are fooling the pusrchasers or the hackers has gotten around there accepted normalities. probably both.

If one knows the standard model of any given science or industry because one funds and therefore dictates by fraternal and finacial appointments what the expert
opinions are apt to be. One can easily pre plan the possible interpretations of a controlled situation and therefore present the situation in collaboration with the model of standards that will critique the event.