One other thing. Conspiracies are created because if the citizens knew the truth, they would not so easily volunteer to die for the phony 'reason' given for war.
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Full Version: Why Conspiracies are Mostly Flawed
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > News, Media & World Events > Conspiracies & Secret Societies
QUOTE
Some conspiracies ARE real, not just 'theories'. Don't' lump valid ones in with loony ones.
That is a valid point. If I were a conspiracy theorist trying to expose what I thought was a real conspiracy, I would be royally pissed at all the crackpots running around talking about Planet X and Chemtrails and HAARP/scalar weather control weapons and nuclear bombs causing the Asian tsunamis. A legitimate conspiracy would have a tendency of being lumped in with the loonys.
That said, the KEY in my mind is deciding what is a valid conspiracy. Believe me there are people who can cite evidence for just about any kooky theory.
So, how to separate the wheat from the chaff? I suppose the first step is to investigate all conspiracy theories on a case-by-case basis. For example, just because the Iran-Contra episode WAS an actual conspiracy, that doesn't mean the the moon landings were a hoax. Just because it is highly likely that the USS Maine was blown up on purpose, or its accidental sinking was covered up, to instigate a war against Spain doesn't mean the government is plotting to create a police state, and just because Watergate was an actual conspiracy doesn't mean that Chemtrails are real.
Each theory must be reviewed on its own merits. That to me is one key mistake that many otherwise honest investigators make. If you have a predisposed opinion your investigation is flawed from the beginning.
Basically I see your point. My main area of expertise is studying the moon landing hoax proponents, and was kind of drawn into the 911 conspiracy theory because of its eerie similarity to the moon hoax conspiracy theory. Both contain a few kernels of legitimate questions but are so bloated with obvious improper science, ideological bias, unqualified 'experts', conflicting theories, and poor photo analysis that it is way too easy to sway a layman.
The 911 conspiracy theories are especially interesting because of the tendency of proponents whose evidence can leap without warning right from "anomalous" to wild tales of missiles and controlled demolitions, ignoring the vast gulf between them.
QUOTE
One other thing. Conspiracies are created because if the citizens knew the truth, they would not so easily volunteer to die for the phony 'reason' given for war.
Very true. I will agree with you that conspiracies exist. It boils down to interpretation of evidence. For example I happen to have many friends who are structual engineers. Many of them also debate 911 conspiracy theorists. I base much of my opinion about it from reading and listening to these debates. Perhaps that makes me biased; I am prepared to deal with that. That said, however, from my expierence, it is one thing to convince laymen that a massive conspiracy of unimaginable scale and complexity happened on 911. It is another to convince avionics experts, structual engineers, demolitions experts, metallurgists, communication specialists, and photo analysts.
For the exact same reason that is why it is so difficult to convince competent engineers, geologists and astronomers that the moon landings were hoaxed.
I think the major problem is that, in most cases, people refuse to acknowledge that there can be a middle ground in these sorts of things. Most people are either shamelessly devoted to their government, or in complete distrust of anything remotely political. Fact is, government decisions can go either way. Is everything the government does good for society? No. Is it all bad? Of course not.
I mean, look at the media. You have the mainstream news, which pumps out right-wing propaganda at a rate that would make Hitler jealous. Then you have the "alternative" news media, which is dedicated to bashing those in power and giving voice to "everyone", so long as they despise the government. There are hardly any unbiased news sources anymore, and those that do exist hold little public interest because, frankly, the truth is less interesting than a heavily warped version of it.
Rather than accept that things can go either way, people either stick with blind patriotism or distrust every little thing that comes their way. The government does some trivial little thing, and suddenly everyone's all "OMG DOOMSDAY DEVICE" or "THEY'RE DOING IT TO HELP US, I LOVE EVERYTHING THEY DO!"
The conspiracy theorists keep pumping all sorts of crazy sh** out, and the patriots keep discrediting it without looking into what has been said. And when someone comes along with a valid theory, it ends up looking like yet another crackpot's spiel because everyone is stuck in this black and white view of things.
I mean, look at the media. You have the mainstream news, which pumps out right-wing propaganda at a rate that would make Hitler jealous. Then you have the "alternative" news media, which is dedicated to bashing those in power and giving voice to "everyone", so long as they despise the government. There are hardly any unbiased news sources anymore, and those that do exist hold little public interest because, frankly, the truth is less interesting than a heavily warped version of it.
Rather than accept that things can go either way, people either stick with blind patriotism or distrust every little thing that comes their way. The government does some trivial little thing, and suddenly everyone's all "OMG DOOMSDAY DEVICE" or "THEY'RE DOING IT TO HELP US, I LOVE EVERYTHING THEY DO!"
The conspiracy theorists keep pumping all sorts of crazy sh** out, and the patriots keep discrediting it without looking into what has been said. And when someone comes along with a valid theory, it ends up looking like yet another crackpot's spiel because everyone is stuck in this black and white view of things.
QUOTE(twinstead @ Mar 16 2005, 08:03 AM)
QUOTE
Some conspiracies ARE real, not just 'theories'. Don't' lump valid ones in with loony ones.
That is a valid point. If I were a conspiracy theorist trying to expose what I thought was a real conspiracy, I would be royally pissed at all the crackpots running around talking about Planet X and Chemtrails and HAARP/scalar weather control weapons and nuclear bombs causing the Asian tsunamis. A legitimate conspiracy would have a tendency of being lumped in with the loonys.
That said, the KEY in my mind is deciding what is a valid conspiracy. Believe me there are people who can cite evidence for just about any kooky theory.
Good points - I think we can agree on being irritated by idiots who muddy the waters of our respective 9//11 and moon landing interests. I haven't researched the moon landings in depth - there seems to be oddities but I would not call them proof of a hoax without doing my homework, therefore I would not make any claims I couldn't back up.
So, how to separate the wheat from the chaff? I suppose the first step is to investigate all conspiracy theories on a case-by-case basis. For example, just because the Iran-Contra episode WAS an actual conspiracy, that doesn't mean the the moon landings were a hoax. Just because it is highly likely that the USS Maine was blown up on purpose, or its accidental sinking was covered up, to instigate a war against Spain doesn't mean the government is plotting to create a police state, and just because Watergate was an actual conspiracy doesn't mean that Chemtrails are real.
Another good point. One does not link them all into ine grand conspiracy. That's where loonies come in ranting and raving. And it makes people in my area of knowledge pissed off. Nut jobs, just because they agree in a 9/11 conspiracy, I wish would stay away from the boards - at least until they stop putting everything from aliens and ghosts into the mix.
Each theory must be reviewed on its own merits. That to me is one key mistake that many otherwise honest investigators make. If you have a predisposed opinion your investigation is flawed from the beginning.
Basically I see your point. My main area of expertise is studying the moon landing hoax proponents, and was kind of drawn into the 911 conspiracy theory because of its eerie similarity to the moon hoax conspiracy theory. Both contain a few kernels of legitimate questions but are so bloated with obvious improper science, ideological bias, unqualified 'experts', conflicting theories, and poor photo analysis that it is way too easy to sway a layman.
I agree - I don't want stupid ideas without any basis in fact put out on 9/11. It turns people off from the seriousness of the topic.
The 911 conspiracy theories are especially interesting because of the tendency of proponents whose evidence can leap without warning right from "anomalous" to wild tales of missiles and controlled demolitions, ignoring the vast gulf between them.
Agreed again. Wild jumps in logic make it sound like tin-foil hat kooks are instigating the 9/11 conspiracy.
QUOTE
One other thing. Conspiracies are created because if the citizens knew the truth, they would not so easily volunteer to die for the phony 'reason' given for war.
Very true. I will agree with you that conspiracies exist. It boils down to interpretation of evidence. For example I happen to have many friends who are structual engineers. Many of them also debate 911 conspiracy theorists. I base much of my opinion about it from reading and listening to these debates. Perhaps that makes me biased; I am prepared to deal with that. That said, however, from my expierence, it is one thing to convince laymen that a massive conspiracy of unimaginable scale and complexity happened on 911. It is another to convince avionics experts, structual engineers, demolitions experts, metallurgists, communication specialists, and photo analysts.
Thanks for agreeing that conspiracies exist. I admire your honesty, and now I see where you're coming from is not unlike myself. We seek the TRUTH. I do know many engineers and aviation experts - I have worked for fifteen years in the high tech industry, OEM medical devices. They agree with my position to a tee. You might not believe this, but they just shake their heads at the ideas put forward by the official story. Ask the experts you know personally about some of my points of reference on structural failure, aircraft maneuverability, and military capabilties of the air defences on and prior to 9/11. The US was and is NOT a weak puppy that got spanked by Bin Laden. Our military defense and intelligence is second to none. The lapses were intentional, not errors. There are redundancies in every defense sytem we have. Fighter jets are an example - to say just two jets were available that colud be up and intercepting is an outright LIE. They have every area of US airspace on alert, with backups of backups ready to fly into action. Andrews AFB has two squadrons of fighters on 24/7 alert to protect Air Force One and Washington, DC.
For the exact same reason that is why it is so difficult to convince competent engineers, geologists and astronomers that the moon landings were hoaxed.
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See above point. Good to see your reply. A refreshing change from the name-calling posts I've had to endure in response to valid questions I've posted. I encourage you to ask personal experts you may know. You might just find a few responses that surprise you.
Maybe I'll look at the moon landing stuff you've been posting...I..hope nut jobs aren't ruining the topic.......
One other point I forgot to add: In a true conspiracy, you will often find experts that are quoted become compromised due to outside pressures. For example, UL is the company that certified the steel for the WTC. The Site Manager of a team that performed tests after 9/11 stated emphatically that the fires were not strong enough to even weaken the steel. Because he went public with this, the higher-ups at UL fired him. Not for lying, but basically because "he had no permissin to speak in public abouth these findings". http://www.world-crisis.com/news/1075_0_1_0_M/
In another case, an explosives expert said a controlled demoiltion was the cause of the WTC collapses, but said he was misquoted a few days later. The second link here has other experts agreeing with the demolition as the cause.
http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/arti...18131/17338.htm
http://www.rense.com/general17/eyewitnessreportspersist.htm
The experts that believe the towers were demolished by explosives are either not publicized, or get crapped on for speaking out.
Cheers
In another case, an explosives expert said a controlled demoiltion was the cause of the WTC collapses, but said he was misquoted a few days later. The second link here has other experts agreeing with the demolition as the cause.
http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/arti...18131/17338.htm
http://www.rense.com/general17/eyewitnessreportspersist.htm
The experts that believe the towers were demolished by explosives are either not publicized, or get crapped on for speaking out.
Cheers
QUOTE(gazerbeams @ Mar 16 2005, 07:41 PM)
I think the major problem is that, in most cases, people refuse to acknowledge that there can be a middle ground in these sorts of things. Most people are either shamelessly devoted to their government, or in complete distrust of anything remotely political. Fact is, government decisions can go either way. Is everything the government does good for society? No. Is it all bad? Of course not.
I mean, look at the media. You have the mainstream news, which pumps out right-wing propaganda at a rate that would make Hitler jealous. Then you have the "alternative" news media, which is dedicated to bashing those in power and giving voice to "everyone", so long as they despise the government. There are hardly any unbiased news sources anymore, and those that do exist hold little public interest because, frankly, the truth is less interesting than a heavily warped version of it.
Rather than accept that things can go either way, people either stick with blind patriotism or distrust every little thing that comes their way. The government does some trivial little thing, and suddenly everyone's all "OMG DOOMSDAY DEVICE" or "THEY'RE DOING IT TO HELP US, I LOVE EVERYTHING THEY DO!"
The conspiracy theorists keep pumping all sorts of crazy sh** out, and the patriots keep discrediting it without looking into what has been said. And when someone comes along with a valid theory, it ends up looking like yet another crackpot's spiel because everyone is stuck in this black and white view of things.
[right][snapback]528848[/snapback][/right]
I mean, look at the media. You have the mainstream news, which pumps out right-wing propaganda at a rate that would make Hitler jealous. Then you have the "alternative" news media, which is dedicated to bashing those in power and giving voice to "everyone", so long as they despise the government. There are hardly any unbiased news sources anymore, and those that do exist hold little public interest because, frankly, the truth is less interesting than a heavily warped version of it.
Rather than accept that things can go either way, people either stick with blind patriotism or distrust every little thing that comes their way. The government does some trivial little thing, and suddenly everyone's all "OMG DOOMSDAY DEVICE" or "THEY'RE DOING IT TO HELP US, I LOVE EVERYTHING THEY DO!"
The conspiracy theorists keep pumping all sorts of crazy sh** out, and the patriots keep discrediting it without looking into what has been said. And when someone comes along with a valid theory, it ends up looking like yet another crackpot's spiel because everyone is stuck in this black and white view of things.
[right][snapback]528848[/snapback][/right]
Just to mindlessly hate the gov't is dumb. The Michael Moore agenda is to bring down the Republicans, and the Democrats will save us. He uses some valid points about the 9/11 conspiracy to justify bringing down the whole Party. He ignores the fact that the Democrats refuse to investigate 9/11 beyond the official story - in fact they buy into the official story. Except for a few, like Sen. Ron Paul ® and former Rep. Cynthia McKinney,(see linkhttp://www.alternet.org/story/16172 they all just keep quiet.
A conspiracy has to be investigated with NO agenda in mind. If it's to justify an agenda (EG> I Hate Bush, I Hate Right/Left wingers) means you will ignore any facts that don't suit what you hope to find. If Bush IS an innocent in 9/11, I have no problem accepting that. But I want proof of it. Just like I want proof of his guilt. My research to this point has huge implications in regards to his foreknowledge of 9/11, but not of orchestrating the event. The whole point of a non-partial investigation is to come to the truth, find out if there was indeed a conspiracy, and if the findings indicate there was, then find out who these people were, and what part each person played.
To have an investigation, like the'official' Commitee on 9/11, start with the assumption that the official '19 hijackers did this' is true, basically is a farce. That immediately limits the whole investigation into a farce. The local Rep.'s of some of the 9/11 widows were promised they would ask many unanswered questions regarding 9/11 the widows wanted answers to. They never did - not any that questioned the'official' story beyond the issue of incompetence.
QUOTE(turbonium @ Mar 15 2005, 02:07 AM)
I admire your explanation - it's much better put forward than most responses I get on these posts. But, you are way off target - let me explain why:
I look forward to an honest and thorough response....
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awesome post turbo! truly a fine compilation of unanswered questions worthy of a thread of its own-if for no other reason than to isolate the responses and cross examinations of these specific issues--its too good for this thread
Conpsiracy theories aren't all that bad imo. Just for the fact if there was nothing to remind us about aliens, the paranormal, roswell, etc. Then the subject would probally die, and basically everything would be for nothing. Sometimes CF's make people ask questions, eve though your there extremely stupid or good.
QUOTE
A refreshing change from the name-calling posts I've had to endure in response to valid questions I've posted.
I think respect for other viewpoints is important to any rational debate. As far as your questions, there's no reason for me to suspect they are anything but valid.
I'm still learning about the issues of this whole 911 thing, and I find your questions interesting. It seems to me that a lot of it entails a little 'hindsight is 20/20' concerning the lack of military response, though.
Either way, I plan on investigating some more. It already is fascinating. Most of the 911 conspiracy advocates I have seen are pretty much spittle spewing ideologues; it's nice to be able to have an intelligent conversation with one who doesn't seem to fit that mold.
I look forward to discussing things with you.
Thanks for the posts, Sunofone and twinstead... we shall move forward and see what we findjavascript:emoticon('B)')
smilie
Here's a link - it's an editorial from a main Venezuelan e-newspaper. It has a few minor errors in details (it was not a 747 that allegedly hit the pentagon, Flight 77 was a 757).
But it shows interest in the unaswered questions of 9/11 are, if anything, gaining momentum, and in other countries besides the US.
Cheersjavascript:emoticon(':tu:')
smilie
smilie
Here's a link - it's an editorial from a main Venezuelan e-newspaper. It has a few minor errors in details (it was not a 747 that allegedly hit the pentagon, Flight 77 was a 757).
But it shows interest in the unaswered questions of 9/11 are, if anything, gaining momentum, and in other countries besides the US.
Cheersjavascript:emoticon(':tu:')
smilie
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