Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

ai_guardian

Mar 9 2005, 11:30 PM

Ok, I think this is the best place to put it. If not, feel free to move it in the appropriate category.

Oxford dictionary definition of 'natural':

QUOTE

natural

• adjective 1 existing in or derived from nature; not made, caused by, or processed by humankind.

My train of thought, no matter how weird it may get sometimes

, is this. Is there really anything that is unnatural about what we have created around us on earth?

The definition above, in my mind, contradicts itself ie. existing in or derived from nature & not humankind made. As far as I'm concerned humankind is NATURAL. And where do you draw the line on what humankind has made as natural or unnatural. Was the first arrowhead unnatural ? or the rock that got chipped away to make a primitive knife unnatural ?

Anything that has been created in or derived from nature is NATURAL. Since we are NATURAL, anything we make is also natural. Whether it be a house, car, computer, plane or a plastic bag. We have not used anything unnatural unless you want to classify your brain as unnatural - I thinks not.

Is a bird building a nest unnatural? or a chimp using a stick to get at tasty ants unnatural? Ok, you may think, now he's talking about non-humankind but consider this, say humankind did not evolve, say chimps started chipping away at rocks (either in the past or in the future) would that now be considered unnatural? I think not.

So the point of this post is: is there really room for the word unnatural?
Anything that is created in or derived from nature is naturally natural whether it be man made or not.

Does anyone get my train of thought? Please give me your views.

thug007

Mar 9 2005, 11:50 PM

Does computers grow naturally? No. So only stuff that were not made or caused by man is nutural. That's what I think anyway.

DarkSinister

Mar 9 2005, 11:58 PM

I always thought that anything that mother nature made is natural so yes you can say that we are natural. Though we are natural, the things we make are not. We change and alter the physical make up things so they are no longer deemed natural. just my thought...

ai_guardian

Mar 10 2005, 12:15 AM

The poop I had earlier was made by me (manmade). Is that unnatural? I ate a whole lot of stuff that was man-made (not grown by nature) and created what in the dunny (for those that are not familiar with this word - it's slang for toilet)? Natural or unnatural?

Yeah, computers were'nt 'grown' by nature but they are created and derived from nature - using our natural thought processes. Can we really create something unnatural using only nature?

DarkSinister

Mar 10 2005, 12:20 AM

haha but then nature intended you to poop, so that's why it's natural!

nindracula

Mar 10 2005, 12:22 AM

If you believe in evolution, that the earth naturally produced us humans, then I agree that nothing is truly unnatural. Computers were just a natural product of the human species at this stage of evolution.

If you are a creationist, then I suppose it would be easier to see things as unnatural, as there would be a seperation between the natural world and the human one.

* edited for spelling

ai_guardian

Mar 10 2005, 12:40 AM

QUOTE

haha but then nature intended you to poop, so that's why it's natural!

Did nature intend me to question why, to explore, to learn, to make things easier for myself ? Judging by evolution - I think so. Nature is doing it itself, constantly improving on what it had created before.

nindracula, excellent reply! Just what I was looking for. I guess I believe in evolution. It doesn't take much just look around and into the past.

Creationists ? I must say this is the first time I've heard of it but I suppose there is an equal opposite to everything (positive-negative, good-bad, 0-infinity). Personally, I believe we are just intelligent animals. Just because we have clawed our way to the top of the food chain doesn't change that.

nindracula

Mar 10 2005, 01:16 AM

QUOTE(ai_guardian @ Mar 10 2005, 12:40 AM)

QUOTE

haha but then nature intended you to poop, so that's why it's natural!

Did nature intend me to question why, to explore, to learn, to make things easier for myself ? Judging by evolution - I think so. Nature is doing it itself, constantly improving on what it had created before.

nindracula, excellent reply! Just what I was looking for. I guess I believe in evolution. It doesn't take much just look around and into the past.

Creationists ? I must say this is the first time I've heard of it but I suppose there is an equal opposite to everything (positive-negative, good-bad, 0-infinity). Personally, I believe we are just intelligent animals. Just because we have clawed our way to the top of the food chain doesn't change that.

[right][snapback]518914[/snapback][/right]

While I am of the opinion that nothing is unnatural, that poses a scary question:

Are we in control of anything? Or are we controlled by fate? If everything is natural then humankind is just living a predetermined path of evolution. I would LOVE to believe I am in control of my destiny... Does anyone think we can be products of evolution and in control of our fate?

Loge

Mar 10 2005, 02:15 AM

Roger Bacon stated the following:

“Nature contains nature. Nature is delighted with nature. Nature dominates nature and it transforms into other natures.”

Oh infinite madness, who asked for this, who is impelling our will to make supernatural things with the help of rare and fantastic alchemical natural procedures?

Angels are not made with theories or beliefs, Angels are supernatural, yet, they are the outcome of natural perfect men!

ai_guardian

Mar 10 2005, 02:20 AM

QUOTE

While I am of the opinion that nothing is unnatural, that poses a scary question:

Are we in control of anything? Or are we controlled by fate? If everything is natural then humankind is just living a predetermined path of evolution. I would LOVE to believe I am in control of my destiny... Does anyone think we can be products of evolution and in control of our fate?

Yes, indeed a scary question. How is this for weird: What if we are controlled by fate but we control fate? Sort of like a feedback loop. My thought is this, if we make a decision in life, the effects of that decision lead to other decisions that have effects. The traditional cause-effect neverending progression. Whatever decision we make is our fate but we are free to make the decisions.

Maybe I should go and have another cuppa coffee for if I do - that is my fate. And ALL of this is only possible because of TIME! Without time - no cause-effect, no fate.

On another note,

QUOTE

haha but then nature intended you to poop, so that's why it's natural!

Just an afterthought: Did nature intend us to communicate, YES. Correct me if I'm wrong but all animals communicate whether it be grunts, squeeks, dancing - bees, touch - ants etc etc Did nature intend me to create a language ie English. Language is man-made, but it's just a more sophisticated form of communication. Is language unnatural? Language (if you listen carefully and with an open mind) is just a bunch of squeeks, grunts, noises etc etc Isn't that NATURAL?

theorist

Mar 10 2005, 03:41 AM

in my words:
unnatural: having something happen that shouldnt have been done

ie: abortions - is it natural to kill a baby if you dont want your perents to find out???

Zaus

Mar 10 2005, 03:56 AM

Unnatural is anything that is not created by a "natural" process, then technically nothing is unnatural because everything is a part of nature. Then agian maybe our understanding of nature is not complete. Maybe there is more than one type of nature just as there are different types of lifeforms.
Bacteria live out their lives by surviving and multiplying(simple chemical processes)
Plants live out their lives by surviving, growing, and multiplying (slightly more complex processes but still fairly simple)
invertabrates, mammals, marsupials, etc.

anyway the point is, for each of those lifeforms reality is different, just as reality is different for each human being...

... gotta go back to work, damnit I wish I could finish my thoughts...

ai_guardian

Mar 10 2005, 04:06 AM

theorist, I think you've hit the nail on the head - so to speak.

IMO, the only truly unnatural thing is OPPOSING NATURE. That is, to suppress/retard life ie. your abortion example.

Now, when you look at the food chain ie. one animal kills another animal (in its very simplistic view) although it may look like suppressing life it is in fact achieving the opposite - hence nature. Sure, one animal gets killed but that gives rise to many other animals/lives and in fact almost always more life than has been lost.

I posted this topic to find the answer of what is 'unnatural' and I thinks we are getting close. I did not post it to push my view on anyone as that is, IMO, pointless.
I just wasn't happy with dictionary/some peoples definition of 'natural'.

Thanx for the input.

Triniant

Mar 12 2005, 04:57 AM

Here is more on this topic right here.

Daughter of the Nine Moons

Mar 12 2005, 05:26 AM

QUOTE(Triniant @ Mar 11 2005, 11:57 PM)

Here is more on this topic right here.
[right][snapback]521847[/snapback][/right]

deju vu eh, Triniant?

Daughter of the Nine Moons

Mar 12 2005, 05:36 AM

May 8 2004

QUOTE(Potholer @ May 8 2004, 05:00 AM)

Things in this world can be classified into Man-made and naturally occuring right?

Well, aren't we just as natural as the next creature? The main difference, I'm guessing, is our level of intelligence and ability to learn from our mistakes and remember the lessons. Why is that enough to mean our creations are unnatural?

For example:

A man makes a gun.
A bird makes a nest.

The gun, made from naturally occurring metals, wood and anything else, fashioned into a shape to suit us, is manmade, an unnatural thing.
Whereas the nest, made from naturally occurring twigs, cotton and...whatever else nests are made from, is just as 'natural' as the bird that made it.

Why is there a difference between our creations and nature's creations?

[right][snapback]167764[/snapback][/right]

Mar 9 2005

QUOTE(ai_guardian @ Mar 9 2005, 06:30 PM)

Ok, I think this is the best place to put it. If not, feel free to move it in the appropriate category.

Oxford dictionary definition of 'natural':

QUOTE

natural

• adjective 1 existing in or derived from nature; not made, caused by, or processed by humankind.

My train of thought, no matter how weird it may get sometimes

, is this. Is there really anything that is unnatural about what we have created around us on earth?

The definition above, in my mind, contradicts itself ie. existing in or derived from nature & not humankind made. As far as I'm concerned humankind is NATURAL. And where do you draw the line on what humankind has made as natural or unnatural. Was the first arrowhead unnatural ? or the rock that got chipped away to make a primitive knife unnatural ?

Anything that has been created in or derived from nature is NATURAL. Since we are NATURAL, anything we make is also natural. Whether it be a house, car, computer, plane or a plastic bag. We have not used anything unnatural unless you want to classify your brain as unnatural - I thinks not.

Is a bird building a nest unnatural? or a chimp using a stick to get at tasty ants unnatural? Ok, you may think, now he's talking about non-humankind but consider this, say humankind did not evolve, say chimps started chipping away at rocks (either in the past or in the future) would that now be considered unnatural? I think not.

So the point of this post is: is there really room for the word unnatural?
Anything that is created in or derived from nature is naturally natural whether it be man made or not.

Does anyone get my train of thought? Please give me your views.
[right][snapback]518811[/snapback][/right]

I think someone has been reading up old topics and trying to pass the thoughts and ideas off as their own...

Edit : btw plagerism is against forum rules.

ai_guardian

Mar 12 2005, 10:31 PM

Absolutely NO PLAGIARISM!

How SMALL MINDED of you that you think that YOU may be the only person on the planet that has ever thought of natural vs unnatural.

Having read your posts now, it is a parallel topic (albeit out of step with this) but my train of thought sprung from a grander perspective on things and I want to lead it there.

The only reference that I can see is the 'bird building a nest' example. Nothing but coincidence.

BTW, I feel that the topic (once again, believe it or not, having just read the 9 pages) has not been successfully answered as yet.

Perhaps the topic should've been moved or merged upon the initial post, perhaps this would have been avoided. But it is nothing but COINCIDENCE!

Mysteryman

Mar 12 2005, 11:16 PM

Are you relating to something like this:

One specific part of a computer is made of plastic. Plastic is manmande, but made from nature.

Rubber is manmade. But it comes from the rubber plant, so its made from nature? Are you reffering to something like that?

Mysteryman

Mar 12 2005, 11:17 PM

Some people refer as to:

What people have not made is natural. What people have created overtime (such as computers, telephones, televisions) involves steps to create. Anything that does not involve steps to make something from mother nature is natural.

ai_guardian

Mar 12 2005, 11:44 PM

Now, just to recap. There are so far two distinct groups of thoughts,

Evolutionary - everything is natural
Creationist - man-made things are unnatural everything else is natural

Sorry mysteryman, I was just writing this as you replied. Yes, even plastic is natural - I think. It is hard to imagine but we are using part of nature (oil) and energy (naturally) to make it. Any machinery etc. in the process is created in similar fashion.

For the 'evolutionary' thinkers there remains my question not fully answered: What is 'unnatural'? Is there such a thing...

For the creationist there are plenty of answers and the discussion has no further meaning.

So for the 'evolutionary' thinkers, we have:

QUOTE

Unnatural is anything that is not created by a "natural" process, then technically nothing is unnatural because everything is a part of nature.

QUOTE

unnatural: having something happen that shouldnt have been done

ie: abortions - is it natural to kill a baby if you dont want your perents to find out???

and my initial (wrong?) view:

QUOTE

IMO, the only truly unnatural thing is OPPOSING NATURE. That is, to suppress/retard life ie. your abortion example.

but with a bit more thought even this is natural! Example, a massive asteroid (the next catastrophic collision) collides with earth truly extinguishing all life! - still a natural phenomenon. Abortion decision - natural choice. Natural because we have taken the choice to make better chances of our survival (or siblings' of unborn).

Does there need to be an 'unnatural' anything ?
ie. does everything have an opposite ?

What if time stopped ? ie. take a split second in the progression of time and freeze - hold forever...could nature without time be unnatural? hmmm

more thoughts later...any views?

seeking

Mar 12 2005, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(thug007 @ Mar 9 2005, 11:50 PM)

Does computers grow naturally? No. So only stuff that were not made or caused by man is nutural. That's what I think anyway.
[right][snapback]518845[/snapback][/right]

no computers dont grow, but bird nests dont either, however computers are made of metal which is found naturally on earth, minus the copper, but copper is still composed of two natural metals

ai_guardian

Mar 13 2005, 12:11 AM

QUOTE

Some people refer as to:

What people have not made is natural. What people have created overtime (such as computers, telephones, televisions) involves steps to create. Anything that does not involve steps to make something from mother nature is natural.

This would be the 'creationist' (really not sure if this it the right term) type of view. To be unambiguous the 'steps to make something' would have to be correctly defined . ie even bird nest building or burrow digging will take steps, natural or unnatural?

However, the creationist will have to inevitably include man-made or humankind somewhere in that definition to draw the line so-to-speak. Whereas the 'evolutionist' view will not need to do so because there is no division - everything is natural.

Potholer

Mar 14 2005, 06:19 AM

I can't quite see the relevance of creationism and evolution to this but that's your opinion and there's no such thing as a wrong opinion

.

I loved discussing this.

I think I finally came to the conclusion that there is no answer to this question. To me, it's all part of the connotations. We don't really fit into nature. Everything in the natural world creates a giant harmony. Except us. Therefore, since we don't fit, we aren't properly natural like a bird making a nest is because what we do doesn't fit into the big cycle that it nature.

Also, the reason we're seen as unnatural is that that is the general consensus of everyone. It is the way we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as.

riotboy555

Mar 14 2005, 08:00 AM

i think the word "unnatural" is a word that is self-defined, i guess you could say. by this i mean that it's a word that you'd have to come up with a meaning yourself. like "normal". normal has a different meaning to different people.

Triniant

Mar 16 2005, 04:23 AM

QUOTE(Daughter of the Nine Moons @ Mar 12 2005, 05:26 AM)

deju vu eh, Triniant?
[right][snapback]521867[/snapback][/right]

Yes, it seems this has come back again and with new insight.

QUOTE(Daughter of the Nine Moons @ Mar 12 2005, 05:36 AM)

May 8 2004
I think someone has been reading up old topics and trying to pass the thoughts and ideas off as their own...
Edit : btw plagerism is against forum rules.
[right][snapback]521875[/snapback][/right]

QUOTE(ai_guardian @ Mar 12 2005, 10:31 PM)

Absolutely NO PLAGIARISM!
How SMALL MINDED of you that you think that YOU may be the only person on the planet that has ever thought of natural vs unnatural.
[right][snapback]522905[/snapback][/right]

In respect to what Dot9m said; this has happened in the past numerous times and does seem at first to recreate itself here. I can understand if it appears as a personal attack, but trust me, it isn’t, maybe a little hasty, maybe not, but only for the good of trying to maintain the integrity of this great forum. In the future it is advisable to always put in a search on a topic prior to creating a new one so as to try and avoid future conflict on similar material. Now, hopefully, we can all get past this and continue on our quest to quench our thirsty minds searching for the water of unexplained mysteries.

QUOTE(riotboy555 @ Mar 14 2005, 08:00 AM)

i think the word "unnatural" is a word that is self-defined, i guess you could say. by this i mean that it's a word that you'd have to come up with a meaning yourself. like "normal". normal has a different meaning to different people.
[right][snapback]524628[/snapback][/right]

This is a great topic.
Now, on the subject; I agree with riotboy555, in my opinion, the question cannot be answered from a whole; it is left to ones own interpretation.

LarryOldtimer

Mar 18 2005, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(thug007 @ Mar 9 2005, 04:50 PM)

Does computers grow naturally? No. So only stuff that were not made or caused by man is nutural. That's what I think anyway.
[right][snapback]518845[/snapback][/right]

So then, are webs made by spiders natural? How about dams made by beavers, nests made by birds or hives made by birds. These are examples of artificial constructs made by "natural" creatures, which were not furnished "as built" by nature. I guess by your definition, these things would also be not natural, either.