At least i get even with Satan. I'm still alive.

Don't challenge God, He'll send Satanail.

Too late, i already did it long time ago.
That's why i know God exist ! and also Satan.

LOL, well, I guess you already had your run in with Satanail then.

I've challenged god all the time...mostly as a way of demonstrating to people that god doesn't exist. To date, he has never picked up any og the guantlets I've thrown down Obviously, the immortal sole of the Sera One doesn't mean much to him

He has also never sent...um...Satanail...to me

If you a deuteronomist you can challenge God the Jews do it all the time. Read the story of Abraham of the OT it's amazing.

As for me I really don't care to challenge God, it ain't like God is going to pick a petty fight with me, in matter of fact I'll feel ashamed for God, a God to get all rattle upped by me or any other human.

If you really want proof that Satan and God exist, you'll find your answer more quickly if you challenge Satan because he's a moron. God probably wouldn't take you seriously especially if you're an unbeliever.

Who the hell is this Satanial (sp?) you're talking about Ashley?

Four years before you were born i already found proof of God's existence.

see, there's the reason why most people say there is no God. They don't actually seek Him. If they were to truly seek God, they'd find Him.

I invested my whole soul, my life and some of my hard earned money just to find God. And what is your investment ?

That doesn't prove a thing...
I have challenged God before and I didn't get anything... But when I truly sought him I did find something... That still doesn't prove anything to anyone else... Its enough proof for me though...

LBD

God can't mess with us, it disrupts our free will. I believe god is much different then what we all picture him as... I believe he had common emotions as we do, and are basically the same intellect, but much more evolved and complex in sprit/soul or whatever you want to call it form. I don't think you can challenge god... Just all the religious nuts and ideas.

Because you are scared.

First of all religious nuts won't challenge God but they will challenge you of what you said nuts.

I have challenged both.But neither responded
Hmmm i wonder why?

Yes I challenged both god and the devil.

I found them both fighting down a back street, back in the day, and broke them up, said chill, and asked them had they never heard of The yin and yang? They looked rather confused, so I sat them both down at a table to play a nice game of Tic Tac toe, but they kept kicking each other under the table, so I tied there feet to the chair legs, but they then started slapping each other while my back was turned, I then tied there hands to the chairs arms, they then resorted to spitting at each other, so I put tape over there mouths, then they started winding each other up by giving each other dirty looks, so I put blind folds on them as they both had telekinesis powers and could move the pencils that I had given them with there magical powers. Soon after some groaning and mumbling they started to play Tic Tac Toe…..

It wasn’t long until they kept tying the game a stale mate, and where drawing it again and again, after if my watch served me correctly a few billion years later, they both went quite and the games stopped, and being that I had waited for so long for a brake through with the two, I took off all there blind folds and all there restraints and waited for a response from one of them, they both looked confused and did not quite know what to say, but I took that as a good sign and that was good enough for me, and I sent them both of on there merry way, both in the opposite direction I might add, as another two billion years of squabbling I dont think I could have endured.

The last I heard god had won an award for being the creator of light, and Satan had won a award for being the creator of darkness, and both are very happy with there achievements, and have both done a lot of growing up.

All the best
Faeden

God will not prove Himself to you just because you want Him to. He wants you to believe in Him altough we cannot see Him. The Devil could care less, because he knows that humans are too stupid to do anything about it. So, he does't care if you believe in Him or God. Even if you say you believe in God, does't make you His child. Satan and God cannot fight each other... At least, in my opinion. They're like the kings in chess. However, God can punish Satan. The logical conclusion that God cannot fight Satan and vice versa, comes from the assumption that if they could fight, God would have already won, and the Devil would't exist. Therefore, God cannot destroy this eternal being He first created to be good. But free-will is a dangerous thing. So, Lucifer made up his mind and thought that He could take over God's throne. So, God kicked him out of the sky. Now, he is with us and in our blood. We have a genetic disease that has only one cure: Jesus Christ

A true believer of God will always respect that Capital "G".
and here's one example.

Faeden you believe in dualism. Can you explain how a being of ultimate good exist independently and a being of ultimate evil exist independently. I can't fathom a place of only good and peace (Heaven) and a place of only evil and chaos (hell). Our nature of dualism would not permit such realities to exist how can I feel pleasure without pain, when pleasure and pain are equal and subjective to ones ability of free will.

Yes He did ! if you know how to play chess.
He always used Sicilian Defence.

The bible says that if you seek God, you'll find Him if you seek Him with all your heart. I wrote a sermon not too long ago on how non-believers will never understand why I believe there's a God. See, when I first asked God into my heart, I never knew Him or what He was about, but I wanted to. I asked God into my life on faith that He actually existed. I have something now that non-believers do not. I actually feel God. I experience his presence. I see Him working in my church. Some churches have God, others do not because a lot of churches work around money and greed and power. In my church, I feel the presence of God and He's there. I have a friend who I got to go to a few of my Friday night services. He said he believed in God (but everyone does) but wasn't a Christian and went just because I asked. A few weeks after he started going, he sat down with me and had a question he couldn't answer. He wondered why he felt good from the second he walked into church, which would last pretty much until he went to bed and the next morning he would go to work and joy would fade away until the next week. Eventually he accepted God into his life because he wanted to feel that joy every day of the week and not just once a week. He wanted to experience God just like I do. He went from being depressed and sad and basically dead in life, to having a full, fulfilled and joyful life. He is experiencing God and senses that God is around Him. An unbeliever will never understand it. Do you think I would defend Christianity if I didn't think there was something there to defend? Unlike anything else on the face of this planet, the bible has never changed it's claims or words. Science changes it's claims every few years, other religions die, but the bible will live forever. There's a reason for that. The bible also makes a lot of bold claims that nobody can disprove.

You can't say, with a skeptic attitude, that you're going to challenge God to see if he's there. God will just ignore you.

Because a church is a one place where miracles always happen.

another thing i've noticed is that sin pulls you further from God. I tried my hardest to give up my lustful habits about 3 months ago, and those were some of the happiest months of my life, but recentlly, i've been slipping back into my sinful habits, and i've been lonely, and irritable every day.

Its in your head. There is such thing as rules, not sin. God has nothing to do with our moral values and what we believe is right. Don't live your life in fear of hell and sin.. all that bullshit made up to keep us under control and be good little boys and girls. God wouldn't want you to live in fear, and ignore your right of freewill? But hey, if you like the life of christain crazies ruling what you can and cannot do... more power to ya. Keep in mind, that if you look at it... christainity is just one big cult.

Oh poor you...you considered it as a sin.
That's part of our genetics, don't worry about it.

MT 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.

not a sin eh?

It depends on how you see it and how you use it otherwise all are sinners everyday and guilty everyday except the one without it.

I was editing nude pictures of a woman, my concentration was purely on the color of the skin (tone) and not the nakedness of it.

looking at a naked woman, and looking at a woman lustfully are not one in the same.

Well then, if you got problems with it you have to change your religion into Yoga.
And learn about "Kundalini".

I challenge god all the time and im yet 2 get a response

You can challenge either and get a result the difference is in how they respond. God when challenged will eventually answer but in this day and age he's not in the habbit of hitting you upside the head with a rain of toads to get your attention(although the day is comming when that will change again). He does it in subtle ways.

Challenge the devil in the right(wrong) circumstances and way you'll get an answer to(by this I mean directly challenging a demon in an infested house or person, or challenging one summoned through any one of a number of methods this is why even the naive people who think ouija boards can be safe will tell you not to ask for displays of power). The problem is you'll wind up in a great deal of pain for it unless you know exactly what your doing(and even then its rare to get out unscathed). Exorcists challenge demons and devils every time they preform a ritual and as any of the legitimate ones can tell you it provokes extreme responses.

You know, reading through this topic, the only thing that's been proven to me is that the only people who see proof of god are those who already wholeheartedly believe he's out there.

Does the word bias mean anything to you people?

I'll consider god having provided "proof" when he has sufficiently convinced me of his existance. Claiming you already have to believe in, and be looking for, god before you'll "find him" is nothing short of a get out of jail free card for the fact christians simply can't provide even a scrap of evidence for him.

Yes God has planted himself in all of our minds. That's why every culture believes in a higher power.

As I've stated before Mr Tiger, spirtuality is a side effect of sentience Humans have a need to question their existance and, unfortunately, spirituality is a side effect that occurs when some of those questions can't be answered...today, we are able to answer most of those questions ourselves, which is probably why atheism is becoming more popular with each generation.

"You know, reading through this topic, the only thing that's been proven to me is that the only people who see proof of god are those who already wholeheartedly believe he's out there."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I believe this to be true because once we have let GOD into our lives GOD opens our eyes onto a whole new light. It's like actually seeing for the first time.

Evidence that cannot be seen objectivly isn't evidence at all

LMAO

And why do you base your claims on things we can't observe???

Now now mr Tiger, we've been down this road before...it ended with you sending me a PM that had all the typing skills of a two year old, and the puntuation that one might expect from a barcode reader. When asked to redo said PM so that it could be read without having to hire a translator, you grew angry, sent me a flame, the exact wording of which I don't recall, and blocked future communication (which, I must say, made my day )

Evolution is the natural, and logical conclusion based on observations, and material evidence, in the world around us. You can choose to believe it or not, I don't honestly care...it does, however, have a great deal more substance than the religion mythology (insert your mythos here).

My conclusion of spirituality being a by product of sentience is also a logical conclusion based on observations. Or are you dead set on god having programmed the concept into our brains?

Sorry you can't comprehend English . Logical? Sorry you don't understand what logic means then, I feel bad for you, really I do. You made my day saying follow me for the truth, haha kinded reminded me of an evil dictator or when you said you're a scientist but you're still 19 and in college which doesn't even classify you as a scientist.

Mr Tiger, I'm not really interested in rehashing the same arguement with you. Flame wars are well beneath me. If you have something constructive to share on my statement, please make it known now. If not, then be aware I'm not going to argue my credibility with you...I'd like to believe me word is fairly well respected by much of the forum, and your own take on me is hardly going to ruin my experience here.

Based on logic and observable fact YES. You can choose to ignore the evidence but I really don't care.

Okay, let's start from the top...

What are the observable facts that indicate god has implanted spirituality into our heads? Take your time.

I'm out of time, but...

That's why every culture believes in a higher power. People who were Christian at one time or any other religion before being athiest believed in a God at one point but went another path.

P's

So you're saying you believe the Juedo Christian religions were the first, and have simply come back into fashion in recent years? Or do you simply mean "a god"...not so much "your god"?

Interesting how the moment I try and start an conversation on anything like an intellectual level, he's "out of time"...funny that, he didn't seem so rushed when he was hopping from thread to thread flaming me

In any event, I'm already explained, quite logically, why cultures exhibit spirituality...an explanation that would seem to be quite accurate, given the increasing rates of athiesm in the light of new scientific discovery (as the role of spirituality becomes redundant). I've yet to see you explain why your theory is more sound than this, and any evidence behind it.

What about evidence that can be felt? Is that any less credible then something seen?


LBD

Certainly. To say evidence is "felt" is to say that liberties were taken in its interpretation by whoever "felt" it. Someone who wholeheartedly expected and believed that whatever "feeling" they had was down to god will come to that conclusion...there is absolutely nothing objective, profound, or definitative in such evidence.

But when what is felt is the same between many many people I would say it has some credibility...


LBD

"Many many people" who, like yourself, already believed that whatever feeling they were experiencing was coming from god to begin with. You cannot compair a personal, indepedant experience with evidence that can be observed, recorded, and examined...if nothing else, if "evidence" was conducted on the basis that only one person is ever able to interpret it, then mankind would probably still be in the stone age.

Ah yes Sera, I hear your point...

But there is a lot of documented evidence about Jesus, for example... Still you dont believe in that...

Heres an example -
When Jesus was put into the tomb, then a unit of Roman soldiers was posted outside the tomb... The seal of the Pilate was put onto the tomb, and breaking that seal was to invite death...
3 days after his death Jesus was missing from the tomb... Over a period of 40 days he was witnessed by hundreds of people...
If Jesus had not have risen from the dead Christianity wouldn't exist today... All anyone would have had to do was to get the body of Jesus, haul it into a town, and parade it down the main street and Christianity would have been dead right then...

And take into account the eyewitnesses that saw Jesus... Many, many of them...
If you were to only take 20 of them, put them into a court and had them testify for 5 minutes a piece that would be 100 minutes of eyewitness testimony... And many more then 20 people were eyewitness to Jesus after his ressurection... In some cases it only takes 1 hour of testimony from 1 witness to convict someone of a murder...

My point is, that what may be credible evidence to someone may not be to another...
You'll probably think all of what I just wrote is bull, but thats just fine...
Whether it be something we can see, or something we can feel, there are many levels of what people consider evidence...

LBD

Actually, I do believe Jesus existed...I just don't think he had anything whatsoever to do with god. However, I definately don't think he rose from the dead (in fact, recent evidence makes me wonder if he was crucified in the first place).

Claiming that he did because the bible says so, is much like me saying that Gandalf was once a living, breathing man, because The Lord of the Rings says so...or that Captain Ahab really did go hunting a gigantic white whale because Moby Dick says so...the bible is a holy writing, filled from cover to cover with metaphor and mythology...not to mention the fact that it was written quite some time after the events in question.

There is very little in the way of contempory evidence that points to Jesus even existing, let alone rising from the dead...in fact, to my knowledge, one of the few sources that do exist was a mention of him in a report by a Roman noble, who refered to him as a "mad wizard", and made light of what he called an insignificant religious movement.