If you're a christian and are looking for some proof of the global flood, I wrote this for you. Please read it and reply if you wish:

I. Dates…This was the 1st question, next…

II. Deluge...(THE EVIDENCE FOR A GLOBAL FLOOD)

• A second question often asked of the creationist is the question of a global flood.
• Genesis 6 and 7 clearly record a global flood that God brought upon the earth as an act of judgment against men’s rebellion and sin.
• Time will not allow me to give you much detail here, but there are 3 or 4 things I want to say about the flood.

1. The Bible clearly describes a GLOBAL flood, not merely a LOCAL flood.

a. There are some today who want to compromise the scripture, and simply describe this as a local flood, covering only a very small region where Noah lived. [his “world”]
b. That clearly is not what the Bible is talking about. It describes a flood that covered all the high mountains under the heavens (Gen.7:18) And a flood that killed every thing that breaths through it nostrils [allergies?] on the earth, (Gen.7:22)
c. You clearly cannot make a local flood scenario fit the biblical text.

2. There is strong HISTORICAL evidence supporting the flood.

a. Do you know that archeologists have discovered 250 different flood legends from 250 different ancient cultures.
b. There are 33 primary ancient cultures that have been discovered:
• 33 of 33 have a flood tradition.
• 31 of 33 have a common tradition that the flood was globally destructive.
• 32 of 33 say man was somehow divinely saved in the flood.
• 30 of 33 say there was some kind of special provision made for the animals.
• 25 of 33 describe an ark or boat landing on top of a mountain.
• 29 of 33 describe a bird being sent from the boat to find land.
• 30 of 33 describe a colored arch as a symbol of divine favor.

(edited out offensive statement)

• 31 of 33 say the first thing the people did when they landed on dry ground is to worship God...(I SHOULD THINK SO!!)

c. There are two laws or principles of historical analysis that I think we need to recognize at this point:

(1) It is commonly understood that if isolated people groups have the same tradition in their stories, this reflects a common ancestry.
(2)It is commonly understood that when widely separated people groups have the same tradition in their stories it must reflect some historical occurrence.

d. This is why I say there is strong HISTORICAL evidence supporting the event of a global flood as described in the Bible.
(Information above taken from tape series, Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of You)

3. There is strong GEOLOGICAL evidence supporting the flood.

a. Again, take a look at such geological evidences as the Grand Canyon. Scientist tell us it took billions and billions of years to form under the erosion effects of the Colorado River.
• But did you know that the top of the Grand Canyon is higher in elevation than where the Colorado River begins (above Granby, Colorado)? Hmmm...That means the Colorado River must have had to flow “UP-HILL” for several million years before it could erode away a ditch deep enough to allow it to start flowing down-hill.
• The fact is, the Grand Canyon could have literally been formed in a matter of days under the astronomical hydraulic pressure that had to accompany the run-off of a global flood.

b. Mount Ararat, 17,000 feet in the air has produced Marine Fossils.
c. In the Himalayas, 20,000 feet in the air, marine fossils have been discovered.

4. There is much FOSSIL evidence supporting the flood.

a. If a global flood occurred that literally drown every breathing creature on the planet, you would expect millions and millions of bodies of dead animals to be swept into various places by the tremendous run-off from a flood.
b. Therefore, you would expect the run-off to deposit tons of dead bodies in large graves, and therefore we should find fossil beds or graveyards full of all kinds of dead animals that were then rapidly covered with tons of mud.
• The Karoo Formation...A fossil bed that contains 8 hundred billion vertebrate skeletons.
• Love Bone Bed (Gainesville, Florida)....Is a fossil bed 120 feet long, and 60 feet wide, and 15 feet deep. 100 different species are buried there. They have found:
• sharks
• whales
• manatees
• fresh water gars
• alligators
• turtles
• snakes
• raccoons
• wolves
• saber toothed tigers
• elephants
• Rhinos
• horses
• camels...etc…

The question is how did all of these animals get to Florida.... They were washed there by the run off of a massive global flood.

c. This is how you get snails and fish fossils on top of some of the world’s highest mountains.
d. In Alaska they have discovered hundreds of frozen mammoths. Many of them still standing in the erect position, with fresh food still in their stomachs, and some even with fresh food (tropical plants) still in their mouths. And they have been frozen perfectly.

• Some Alaskans claim they have eaten Mammoth meat from these creatures. They would use saws to carve huge chunks of meat off and eat it.
• There is no way to explain such phenomenon apart from the consequences of a global flood.

e. A global flood could have formed coal beds and oil reserves in very short periods of time.
f. You see, the run-off would have been unbelievable because the water from the flood did not evaporate. The huge caverns beneath the crust of the earth that had pumped up water causing the flood (Gen.7:11 says “the fountains of the deep burst forth”) And the caverns that were created as volcanoes spewed out billions of tons of magma....All these caverns literally collapsed and the waters receded in a run-off affect like the world has never seen.

Dr. Kurt Landers (Head of Geology for Michigan University) said, “Can we, as seekers of the truth shut our eyes any longer to the obvious fact, that large areas of the sea floor have sunken vertically distances measured in miles.” (Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of Youtape 4)
NOTE: This is exactly what the Bible describes happening in Genesis 8:3...
NOTE: The run off affect from such a global flood had to be indescribable. I mean when the huge under ground caverns began to collapse and the water began to rush in by the billions and billions of acre feet...It must have been like a global flush of a toilet!!

5. Prior to the flood many believe the world was surrounded with a VAPOR canopy.

a. Many reputable scientists today believe that a vapor canopy as is described in Genesis 1:6-7 explains both the biblical picture of what happened prior to the flood as well as the scientific evidence.
Gen 1:6-7
b. This seems to describe water existing both above and below the firmament [expanse], (the expanse is that area in the sky where birds fly, Gen. 1:20)
c. So above the firmament, in the atmosphere, the water would have existed in the form of ice crystals.
d. And when the caverns of the earth began to open up (Gen.7:11) it spewed forth hot water, and volcanoes blew out hot lava and spewed billions and billions of hot ash into the atmosphere, creating a “Seeding affect” upon the ice crystals in the canopy of the earth’s atmosphere, and the canopy melted and it began to rain down mud all over the earth. I rained non-stop for 40 days and 40 nights, as this vapor canopy collapsed.

• If this theory is true you would expect subtropical conditions to exist world wide before the flood, because this vapor canopy of ice crystals would create a “greenhouse” effect world wide.
EX. This is exactly what the fossil record supports. For instance in the Northern tip of the Vancouver Islands, they have found fossilized Palm trees.
EX. On the Spitsbergen Islands (North of Russia in the arctic circle) they have found Palm tree leaves 10 to 12 feet in length.
EX. In Siberian Alaska they have found camels, lions, horses, mammoths, tigers, bison, sheep, rhinos. They don’t live there today, it is too cold. But it must have been warm at one time.
EX. In the South Pole they have found fossilized remains of luscious forests with tree trunks 3 feet in diameter.
(Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of You, tape 4)

• The Vapor Canopy would also serve to reflect and disperse harmful radiation coming into the atmosphere from the sun, which would help plants and animals to live longer. And that would explain why the average age of a man before the flood was 912 years. But after the flood those ages began to grow shorter and shorter at a very rapid rate.

• Under these pre-diluvian conditions plants and animals would also be expected to live longer and grow larger.

EX. The fossil record has produced support for this:
• moss like plants 3 feet tall
• huge asparagus stalks 40 feet tall (One stalk could feed a family for years, you’d have to cut your asparagus with a chain saw)
• horse tail reeds over 50 feet tall
• c*** roaches over 1 foot in diameter (how would you like to step on that in the middle of the night?)
• Dragonflies with 3 foot wing spans
• fossil clams over 2 feet in diameter
• hornless rhinos 17 feet tall
• pigs the size of cattle
• camels over 12 feet tall
• birds towered to 11 feet tall
• Beavers the size of pigs
• Deer antlers 12 feet in width
• ground sloths 18 feet long
• Dinosaurs (reptiles never stop growing as long as they live. So they lived long, protected from the harmful affects of radiation. Perhaps this is why they grew so big...they are just old lizards!)
• Duck bill dinosaur...was found fossilized in a swimming position with its head up as if it were trying to get air....It died in a flood!

There is a ton more information and it all supports a global flood. Even the fact that there was an ice age supports a global flood!


Author : Pastor Jerry Shirley http://gbcdecatur.org/sermons/Devilution8.html

sharks
• whales
• manatees
• fresh water gars
• alligators
• turtles
• snakes
• raccoons
• wolves
• saber toothed tigers
• elephants
• Rhinos
• horses
• camels...etc…

The question is how did all of these animals get to Florida.... They were washed there by the run off of a massive global flood.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Read prehistoric North American wildlife books.

Horses, Camels, Rhinos, Mammoths(elephants) and Sabertooth cats (which evolved into Cougars) were common animals all through out the Americas. The rest, are still found all over the N. American continent.

That's *not* proof of a global flood.

As for the other cultures. It's the same thing. They get a huge enough localized flood, they will think that the whole world has been flooded. Flooding is a *VERY* common place thing.

Thanks Saucy, that was an interesting read.

That is a theory.
Its proof backing the theory of a global flood.

Yes it is. But that still doesn't mean there wasn't a global flood.

Whoa.. these animals being here in prehistoric times a theory?

Then I guess the Lebria Tar Pits is nothing but a huge sticky theory.

All the fossils found of horses and rhinos are theories... All the evidence of Mammoths are theories.

DNA testing shows that smiladon is the ancestors to cougars.


As for the flood. Tell me, if Noah and his family were the only people who survived, then how did the Native American cultures that have a flood story survive in that area? Or the chinese? Or the Aborigonies in Austraila? They didn't Say "Noah was our father... and God did this..." Infact more times then not, it wasn't just two by two it was a whole village that survived and thier enemies washed away.

Hmmm.... sounds like wishful thinking to me on part of those who wished harm on thier enemies.

I'm sorry.. but using cultural legends isn't proof enough. Alot of them are just that, legends that are passed by word of mouth untill some time where it was finaly writen down. And my that time... the story's been exaggerated greatly.

OK Folks, I feel this thread has potential for a good discussion so I contacted to TRUE author of the sermon, Pastor Jerry Shirley and he has kindly given me permission to re-instate it with proper credit given to himself of course.

So please..play nicely and remember he did not HAVE to give permission for this to be re-posted.

Oh theres no doubt in my mind that there was a global deluge in mankinds living memory.
It occured because the ice age ended
I just don't believe it was a vindictive and ominpotent gods will that it happened.
I leave that for the believers
I can imagine a few people at the time cursed their deities for the trouble though
Just a pity it was 10,000 years before any christians got round to claiming it as their own
Now i hear that it was their god and only their god that caused it
So we know where to lay the blame

Oh and plate tectonics easily explains why marine fossils are discovered at the top of mountains
You neglected to mention that the fossils were millions not thousands of years old
The frozen mammoth hypothesis has been claimed more often to be proof of Earth crust displacement
It has been proven to be a fallacy many times over
Glossing over the details does this topic no justice at all
In fact i read that far and gave up attempting to rationalise it
Answer me this question
If god actually did cause a global flood as he claimed to wipe out most of mankind
why did he create mankind in his image
Is he in denial
maybe he couldn't stomach the mirror that mankind held up to him

Mother Nature

There was a big die off of humans about 70,000 years ago, but it was caused by volcanos, which put the earth in an Ice age. The human population nosed dived to about 15,000 to 40,000. Here is a nice article about it.
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/evolving998.html

Maybe all this flood stuff is actually about this. Maybe it is a racial memory.

everything i have seen claims that there is not enough water on the planet to have caused this global flood. Supposedly, if there was that much water, the earth would be much mor ehumid, for one thing.

Well you'd have to take into account the time period
70,000 years is just a little too long for that kind of racial memory to survive.
Then you'd have to take into account the centres of civilisation during this flooding period

At the end of the last ice age (about 10,500 years ago) sea levels rose all over the planet. At that time most centres of civilisation were coastal or river based just as they were a few millenia later.
It is not inconceivable that as the waters rose civilisations at the waters edge would have to move inland as the floods increased. Of course this would set civilisations back for millenia. It is also not too far in the distant past for the event to be recorded in the myths and superstitions of the age.
No one of course is really claiming in any of the flood myths that the entire earth was flooded. If you asked people of that time how big the whole world was they would tell you of the world that they knew. Well with the exception of the christian flood myth obviousley but that is subject to a great deal of bias. To say that the one true god only flooded the area known to his people is a little less than omnipotent. The christian flood myth is well known to be extrapolated from earlier records by the route of judaism.
Maybe it would be better to say that the flood encompassed the known world rather than the world as a whole.
That would leave you with similar myths from very different races spread out around the planet as is the case today.
To give an example of the way that the flood myth has changed in the retelling you only have to look at the type of bird that the famous Boat owner set free to find dry land
In the christian mythos it is a dove that on discovering dry land returns with a green twig to show Noah that dry land is nearby.
This seems very unlikely to anyone who knows anything about doves.
Do you really believe that it would come back.
I realise of course that the easy answer is that the dove was a servant of gods will.
And then you read an earlier account.
In the case of the sumerian flood tradition the bird was a raven. A bird that is much happier feasting on corpses than returning with a green twig to show its safe to disembark
In this particular story the famous boat owner (upnapishtim/adapa) realises that dry land is nearby because the raven doesn't return
Without trying to offend any of my christian brothers and sisters here I would ask what they think more rational.
A bird that doesn't return because there is no need to or a bird that returns with a green twig from a world that just minutes before was supposedly completely inundated.
You see trees don't do too well underwater.
They certainly don't produce green twigs the second they break the surface.
Stories change and become embellished in the retelling.
But there is always a grain of truth for those willing to look for it.
And in many cases the same story is told world over of Wise men who came from the sea and kick started civilisation with their great knowledge of the subject.
In many cases it is mentioned though with no emphasis on its importance that these men were great fishermen.
But then would you over emphasize a fact that really had no bearing on the story if it was a fact that was very well known to the peoples of the time.

localized flooding makes sense. it is the arc story that could not be possible.

You're right. What if all of ancient history is just an exaggeration. What if its all just a myth. Seems to me we're missing a big piece of our history. Is't it just great how liberalistic non-believers have an explaination for everything? You just watch, they are going to explain everything for us, or better yet, they'll attempt to overthrow common knowledge and talk to us about how "We cannot trust ancient manuscripts". Oh, gimme a break! Look, a lot of stuff has been written down about our ancient history. For the hebrew nation's part, I believe in the Bible. There are indeed exaggerations in some text, but you know what that is? That is either just a legend (which btw should't be dismissed as false)
or it is a supernatural phenomena witnessed by the ancients. Modern Bible scholars believe that mostly the UFO phenomena, and solar activity have been described; it is not meant to be taken literal, but it must be analyzed. As for the Flood, there is evidence. People just don't want to face reality, so they reject the evidence. So, they just don't consider it proven.

Oh we are all liberalist now? :hmmKey word here is "Ancient".
Today is the Mother of Tomorrow.

You know, I must admit, it does seem to be a trend among certain members of the board to accuse absolutely everyone who disagrees with their opinion of being "a liberal"...it's getting rather pathetic

In any event...



The bible is not a historical document - it's a mythology. As has been explained countless times before, it isn't even contemporary. Even if parts of the bible can be taken as actual historical events, the text will have been so incredible screwered by religious mythos (and an ubandance of complete fiction) that it's simply impossible to tell which is which.

But is'nt it also funny how believers always have an answer for everything too?

I did't call everyone a liberalist.

Were you convicted or something? Besides, who ever said liberalists are bad? I sure did't.

Yeah. I guess everyone has an opinion then. But sometimes they just don't matter because the majority has already made up its mind. I think its still amazing that the Bible continues to be the No.1 best seller book in the world.

see my avatar?

I do indeed see your avatar but am curious
is the most important word there shown either holy, bible or camp ?

p.s. you know tents are widely available.
There's nothing wrong with being called a liberal
I am a liberal
well actually whats known as a radical liberal as in No i don't believe in the death penalty. Unless they're actually guilty and want to die

Unfortunatly I come from a society thats so liberal that even one of the three main political parties is called "the liberal party"

Hey Jesus was a radical liberal too wasn't he so liberalism can't be all bad.
hehehe

liberal
Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lEodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL
3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
- lib·er·al·ly /-b(&-)r&-lE/ adverb
- lib·er·al·ness noun
synonyms LIBERAL, GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, MUNIFICENT mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. LIBERAL suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given <a teacher liberal with her praise>. GENEROUS stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift <a generous offer of help>. BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing <children spoiled by bountiful presents>. MUNIFICENT suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes <a munificent foundation grant>.


Main Entry: 2liberal
Function: noun
: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

I think I resemble that remark.
Ya'll can call me a liberal any time you want.

Uh Oh,
this is gonna run and run isn't it.
quick somebody start a new topic " I am a liberal" before this thread starts a liberal (not literal) flood myth

Ya see... back then... the ground was gullied. And the people thought.. "We'll make our homes in that thar gully!" So they did. Then one day, it rained in the far off mountains. The water obaying the gods of gravity went off the mountains and into the gully, thus flooding out anyone who didn't make a house boat...

Ya see.. back then... some people thought that making a floating house was all the rage... wait.. what flood was this again?

I think the reason the bible sells so well is becuase it is the "easy religion" which caters to the ego. As such I think it sells well for the same reasons drugs sell well (no offence, just my opinion)

Perhaps the two are even interconnected

You mean operate on the same areas of the brain?

Saucy says:
II. Deluge...(THE EVIDENCE FOR A GLOBAL FLOOD)

• A second question often asked of the creationist is the question of a global flood.
• Genesis 6 and 7 clearly record a global flood that God brought upon the earth as an act of judgment against men’s rebellion and sin.
• Time will not allow me to give you much detail here, but there are 3 or 4 things I want to say about the flood.

1. The Bible clearly describes a GLOBAL flood, not merely a LOCAL flood.


Answer:
The Bible also clearly states that the world sits on pillars, is a circle (not a sphere), that rain comes from windows opening in the sky, that rabbits chew their cud, and that bats are fowls.

Saucy says:
a. There are some today who want to compromise the scripture, and simply describe this as a local flood, covering only a very small region where Noah lived. [his “world”]
b. That clearly is not what the Bible is talking about. It describes a flood that covered all the high mountains under the heavens (Gen.7:18) And a flood that killed every thing that breaths through it nostrils [allergies?] on the earth, (Gen.7:22)

Answer:
Unfortunately, the mixing of all that freshwater with the salt water would have killed all of the fish, freshwater and salt water to include the mollusk, etc.

Saucy says:
c. You clearly cannot make a local flood scenario fit the biblical text.

Answer:
You cannot make anything fit the biblical text since none of it is viable without all the natural laws suspended.

Saucy says:
2. There is strong HISTORICAL evidence supporting the flood.

a. Do you know that archeologists have discovered 250 different flood legends from 250 different ancient cultures.

Answer:
That is out of approximately 5000 ancient cultures or about 5% of the cultures, that leaves 95% of the cultures have no flood story and of the 250 that do, many many do not have flood stories that are even similar to Genesis….unless you want to consider Coyote and Spider using a canoe spun by Spider to escape the flood! These are things that Creationist “forget” to mention!

Saucy says:
b. There are 33 primary ancient cultures that have been discovered:
• 33 of 33 have a flood tradition.
• 31 of 33 have a common tradition that the flood was globally destructive.
• 32 of 33 say man was somehow divinely saved in the flood.
• 30 of 33 say there was some kind of special provision made for the animals.
• 25 of 33 describe an ark or boat landing on top of a mountain.
• 29 of 33 describe a bird being sent from the boat to find land.
• 30 of 33 describe a colored arch as a symbol of divine favor.

Answer:
Those 33 primary ancient cultures are undoubtedly from around the Asia Minor/Middle East/Eastern Asia area, all of whom have close ties in politics, religion, and trade. That would just be a type of cultural transmission and really means little!


Saucy says:
• 31 of 33 say the first thing the people did when they landed on dry ground is to worship God...(I SHOULD THINK SO!!)

c. There are two laws or principles of historical analysis that I think we need to recognize at this point:

(1) It is commonly understood that if isolated people groups have the same tradition in their stories, this reflects a common ancestry.
(2)It is commonly understood that when widely separated people groups have the same tradition in their stories it must reflect some historical occurrence.

Answer:

Yes, but your “33 primary ancient cultures” were not isolated, so the common ancestry would actually be cultural transfer. Of the 250, very few would be similar enough to be even considered and even then, large local floods WOULD account for the legends.

d. This is why I say there is strong HISTORICAL evidence supporting the event of a global flood as described in the Bible.
(Information above taken from tape series, Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of You)

Saucy says:
3. There is strong GEOLOGICAL evidence supporting the flood.

a. Again, take a look at such geological evidences as the Grand Canyon. Scientist tell us it took billions and billions of years to form under the erosion effects of the Colorado River.
• But did you know that the top of the Grand Canyon is higher in elevation than where the Colorado River begins (above Granby, Colorado)? Hmmm...That means the Colorado River must have had to flow “UP-HILL” for several million years before it could erode away a ditch deep enough to allow it to start flowing down-hill.
• The fact is, the Grand Canyon could have literally been formed in a matter of days under the astronomical hydraulic pressure that had to accompany the run-off of a global flood.

Answer:
And the geological explanation is that the Grand Canyon plateau was originally the same level as the river and over the time (and it was probably more like millions of years, since the area was under the sea at several different times), geological uplift slowly raised the land as the river eroded it’s bed, until the top of the plateau is much higher than the river is today. Of course the river would have been flowing down hill for the whole time including today…This misinformation comes from people who don’t bother to research the subject before they open their mouths…The preacher ought to stick to his mythology, he definitely does not have a bend for science.

Saucy says:
b. Mount Ararat, 17,000 feet in the air has produced Marine Fossils.
c. In the Himalayas, 20,000 feet in the air, marine fossils have been discovered.

Answer:

Ever heard of geological uplift? The two mounts were at the bottom of an ancient sea and tectonic movement caused them to be uplifted. In the case of Ararat, the African plate is slamming into the EuroAsian plate and in the case of the Himalayas, the Indian plate is slamming into the underbelly of the Asian plates. We can even prove this as these mountains are “growing” at a rate of several inches per decade!


Saucy says:
4. There is much FOSSIL evidence supporting the flood.

a. If a global flood occurred that literally drown every breathing creature on the planet, you would expect millions and millions of bodies of dead animals to be swept into various places by the tremendous run-off from a flood.
b. Therefore, you would expect the run-off to deposit tons of dead bodies in large graves, and therefore we should find fossil beds or graveyards full of all kinds of dead animals that were then rapidly covered with tons of mud.

Answer:
But did you ever notice that there were no dinosaurs mixed in with “modern” mammals? That there were no trilobites mixed in with dinosaurs. In a flood scenario the heaviest objects would be at the bottom and the lightest at the top, this is not the case with the fossil record – anywhere! This once again is the result of the uninformed trying to prove their mythology and totally ignoring facts – your preacher may be a good clergyman, but he is a lousy scientist!

Saucy says:
• The Karoo Formation...A fossil bed that contains 8 hundred billion vertebrate skeletons.
• Love Bone Bed (Gainesville, Florida)....Is a fossil bed 120 feet long, and 60 feet wide, and 15 feet deep. 100 different species are buried there. They have found:
• sharks
• whales
• manatees
• fresh water gars
• alligators
• turtles
• snakes
• raccoons
• wolves
• saber toothed tigers
• elephants
• Rhinos
• horses
• camels...etc…

The question is how did all of these animals get to Florida.... They were washed there by the run off of a massive global flood.

Answer:
First if you will notice, there are no trilobites or dinosaurs in the fossil bed, only “modern” animals. Sharks I have fished for in the Gulf, Whales I have seen off the coast of Delaware, Manatees are a native animal and not anywhere else in the world, as a boy, I used to fish for gar fish (another native creature), alligators are only found in America, turtles are worldwide, as are snakes, raccoons are a native American animal, wolves are worldwide, sabe rtoothed tigers (not really related to tigers) were (by the fossil record) native Americans, elephant (Mammoths really) lived on all the northern continents, as did rhinos (wooly rhinos were a very common ice age creature), horses (again by the fossil record) came into being in America and migrated to Asia and eventually Europe, and same story on the camels…So I see in no way that your list proves anything other than these creatures lived and died in America!

Saucy says:
c. This is how you get snails and fish fossils on top of some of the world’s highest mountains.
d. In Alaska they have discovered hundreds of frozen mammoths. Many of them still standing in the erect position, with fresh food still in their stomachs, and some even with fresh food (tropical plants) still in their mouths. And they have been frozen perfectly.

Answer:
I explained geological uplift above…no need in “chewing my words twice”.

Saucy says:
• Some Alaskans claim they have eaten Mammoth meat from these creatures. They would use saws to carve huge chunks of meat off and eat it.
• There is no way to explain such phenomenon apart from the consequences of a global flood.

Answer:
Current theory is a flash freeze caused by a currently unknown phenomenon. Since, in order for the mammoths to be buried, the permafrost would have to been defrosted, the carcass buried and then the ground refrozen…this couldn’t have happened until the water drained away (the world was covered for nearly a year, by the Bible). In that time period, the flesh would have rotten…again, he may be a good preacher, but…

Saucy says:
e. A global flood could have formed coal beds and oil reserves in very short periods of time.
f. You see, the run-off would have been unbelievable because the water from the flood did not evaporate. The huge caverns beneath the crust of the earth that had pumped up water causing the flood (Gen.7:11 says “the fountains of the deep burst forth”) And the caverns that were created as volcanoes spewed out billions of tons of magma....All these caverns literally collapsed and the waters receded in a run-off affect like the world has never seen.

Answer:
You forgot the rain, Genesis makes the fountains as an after thought, probably because even the ancients understood that the weight of the water would cause the hugh caverns to collapse and there wouldn’t be a flood! Incidentally, this is a direct steal from ICR’s “Tectonic Plate Theory” and suffers from the same problem…the volcanoes spewing billions of tons of magma would have (since they would be under water) created steam, heated the water causing the ambient air temperature to dramatically increase (1500 – 2500 degrees F), which in turn would have incinerated the Ark and Noah and company…Again, maybe a great preacher, but!

Saucy says:
Dr. Kurt Landers (Head of Geology for Michigan University) said, “Can we, as seekers of the truth shut our eyes any longer to the obvious fact, that large areas of the sea floor have sunken vertically distances measured in tape 4)miles.” (Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of You
NOTE: This is exactly what the Bible describes happening in Genesis 8:3...
NOTE: The run off affect from such a global flood had to be indescribable. I mean when the huge under ground caverns began to collapse and the water began to rush in by the billions and billions of acre feet...It must have been like a global flush of a toilet!!

Answer:
If you would look, what is being described is tectonic subduction and I’m sure if the entire quote of Dr. Landers were included, that would be what he was saying. This sinking of the sea floor is described accurately in the Theory of tectonic plates, and was described long before the evidence was found. Nothing mystical or “Godly” here (other than the natural laws brought forth by the Creator doing as he designed them to).

Saucy says:
5. Prior to the flood many believe the world was surrounded with a VAPOR canopy.

a. Many reputable scientists today believe that a vapor canopy as is described in Genesis 1:6-7 explains both the biblical picture of what happened prior to the flood as well as the scientific evidence.
Gen 1:6-7
b. This seems to describe water existing both above and below the firmament [expanse], (the expanse is that area in the sky where birds fly, Gen. 1:20)
c. So above the firmament, in the atmosphere, the water would have existed in the form of ice crystals.
d. And when the caverns of the earth began to open up (Gen.7:11) it spewed forth hot water, and volcanoes blew out hot lava and spewed billions and billions of hot ash into the atmosphere, creating a “Seeding affect” upon the ice crystals in the canopy of the earth’s atmosphere, and the canopy melted and it began to rain down mud all over the earth. I rained non-stop for 40 days and 40 nights, as this vapor canopy collapsed.

Answer:
Only problem with your pretty little scenario is that 3 calories of heat is released for every gram of vapor converting to liquid (water vapor, the hot version of H2O, has to release heat to become water, the liquid version of H2O), this heat coupled with the heat from the “billions and billions of tons of lava and hot ash would raise the temperature of the atmosphere to well over 2000 degrees Fahrenheit and we know what that means, right? Barbeque Noah and Ark!


Saucy says:
• If this theory is true you would expect subtropical conditions to exist world wide before the flood, because this vapor canopy of ice crystals would create a “greenhouse” effect world wide.
EX. This is exactly what the fossil record supports. For instance in the Northern tip of the Vancouver Islands, they have found fossilized Palm trees.
EX. On the Spitsbergen Islands (North of Russia in the arctic circle) they have found Palm tree leaves 10 to 12 feet in length.
EX. In Siberian Alaska they have found camels, lions, horses, mammoths, tigers, bison, sheep, rhinos. They don’t live there today, it is too cold. But it must have been warm at one time.
EX. In the South Pole they have found fossilized remains of luscious forests with tree trunks 3 feet in diameter.
(Somebody’s Trying To Make A Monkey Out Of You, tape 4)

Answer:
Evidentially whoever made the tape you keep referencing has never heard of certain things, although he is currently living through one of them. He has never heard of climatic change (even though mankind has gone through at least three in the past 20,000 years (two of them in the last 4000 years) which we are currently in the first stages of. He also seems to either never heard of the Theory of Tectonic Plates and plate movement….Since all the land mass of the earth was one large subtropical supercontinent several hundred million years ago and through plate movement split into the current continents, it would stand to reason that warm weather creatures would have existed on them! Looks like the preacher isn’t the only one with little scientific understanding

Saucy says:
• The Vapor Canopy would also serve to reflect and disperse harmful radiation coming into the atmosphere from the sun, which would help plants and animals to live longer. And that would explain why the average age of a man before the flood was 912 years. But after the flood those ages began to grow shorter and shorter at a very rapid rate.

Answer:
And the atmospheric pressure caused by the canopy (estimated to have been 90 km thick) would have increased the temperature to the point that man, animal and plant would be unable to exist. If they changed (evolved – the dirty word) to where they could, then when the flood came, they would die from the tremendous changes wrought in pressure and temperature by the change!

Saucy says:
Under these pre-diluvian conditions plants and animals would also be expected to live longer and grow larger.

EX. The fossil record has produced support for this:
• moss like plants 3 feet tall

Answer:
Still exist in the tropics, so what is new?

Saucy says:
• huge asparagus stalks 40 feet tall (One stalk could feed a family for years, you’d have to cut your asparagus with a chain saw)

Answer:
Never heard that one, give references – probably not really asparagus, but something that looked similar – but give references before I say for sure

Saucy says:
• horse tail reeds over 50 feet tall

Answer:
Horse Tail Ferns are extinct, but I can show you bamboo that is over 100 feet tall, does that mean we have a vapor canopy?

Saucy says:
• c*** roaches over 1 foot in diameter (how would you like to step on that in the middle of the night?)

Answer:
Still have large roaches - different species have different sizes, temperature has very little to do with it, mainly a matter of ecological niche (food, competition, etc).

Saucy says:
• Dragonflies with 3 foot wing spans

Answer:
Again heat has little to do with it, mainly a matter of ecological niche

Saucy says:
• fossil clams over 2 feet in diameter

Answer:
We have gaint clams 4 and 5 foot in diameter in the Pacific, again does that mean we have a
vapor canopy today?

Saucy says:
• hornless rhinos 17 feet tall
• pigs the size of cattle
• camels over 12 feet tall
• birds towered to 11 feet tall
• Beavers the size of pigs
• Deer antlers 12 feet in width
• ground sloths 18 feet long


Answer:
All of the above existed during the stone age and was hunted by our ancestors, If your contention was true, we would have had flies the size of basketballs, gnats the size of baseballs, sparrows the size of emus, horses 10 feet at the withers, cotton plants that you had to use a ladder to pick, flax plants twenty feet high, etc…we don’t so there must have been another explanation.

Saucy says:
• Dinosaurs (reptiles never stop growing as long as they live. So they lived long, protected from the harmful affects of radiation. Perhaps this is why they grew so big...they are just old lizards!)

Answer:
Sorry, dinosaurs were not lizards, all evidence is that dinos were warm-blooded, whereas lizards are cold-blooded. Even then, there is a size that a land animal can’t exceed and still be able to move, so old dinos couldn’t grow above a certain size.

Saucy says:
• Duck bill dinosaur...was found fossilized in a swimming position with its head up as if it were trying to get air....It died in a flood!

Answer:
Wrong, take a woodland walk and observe any dead creatures lying around. As a body decays, it dehydrates. As the ligaments that run along the back of the spine dry out, they cause the neck to draw back, in the manner of a creature raising it’s head. Not trying to get air because of a flood, but normal natural decomposition……again your preacher may be a good preacher, but he sucks in science!

Saucy says:
There is a ton more information and it all supports a global flood. Even the fact that there was an ice age supports a global flood!

Answer:
If it is as misinformed as the above, it proves nothing!

First and foremost, I would like to apologize for taking what someone else wrote and claimed it as my own. What I did was wrong and it will never happen again. And Thistle, if you read this, all I can say is...sorry. I got caught in a lie and kept lying instead of admitting the truth. Again, I'm sorry.

Secondly, the fact that the native Americans and many other cultures have account of the flood is because they descended from Noah! They all had the same flood legend that generations kept passing down and eventually the names changed and a few details changed, but the basic story is the same!

When it comes to fossils, there are a lot of fossils that were found that looked as if they were strugging to survive. Climbing up hills and even a lot of fossils that showed the animals right in the middle of giving birth! The only way for an animal to become a fossil is for great amounts of sediments to encase it then harden. Why are there so many varieties of fossils of modern day animals encased with ancient, supposedly extinct animals?

Saucy it takes a lot of guts to admit when we are wrong, and to apologise. I think it's safe to say u learnt ur lesson.

We still wubb u

I second that Saucy, apology accepted



Now let's get back on topic

Sorry, but the Native Americans were here on this continent long before Noah ever lived. They are desendences of Asiatic tribes. They were here when all the prehistoric animals were here (and more then likely the reason why they're not here anymore)

If the bible states that it's religion started roughly 7 or 8 thousand years ago... Native Americans have Noah beat by a couple of million years.

And has Mako said, when a body dies, it dehydrates. That causes the limbs and head to look the way they do. How you can pass basic biology up for some flood is just awing... and not in the good way.

Ok, during the time of Noah how may different species of animals existed. I would assume a lot. More than we have today. As the story goes Noah put all the animals that were in existence at his time in a boat. Wow that must have been a big boat. I don't think the one described in the bible would do it. Noah also had to get all these animals from all over the world. They don't have raccoons in the Middle East they are only found in North America. How did he get the raccoons to the Middle East to put in his boat? Did Noah even know about the new world? Most likely not. Then when poor old Noah emptied the boat did he go around and drop off all the animals were they belonged. I don't think so after a trip like that I am sure the old guy would want it over and done with. If he just dumped them out in the Middle East wouldn't the Middle East have raccoons?
Raccoons are really cute.

Mako....that may just be one of the most conclusive and thorough posts I have ever read on this, or any other message board Well done...you have impressed the Sera One, and thus will receive this...

my antichrist seal of approval

Maybe he worked on the same principle as santa claus, I know I know, stop laughing, but I am being serious, I mean, lets face it, the story of Noah is about as believeable as santa and what he has to do in one night...

you see what I am getting at?

You know what?... Don't bring Jesus into your liberalist group when they clearly deny His teachings!... Keep Jesus out of schools, so keep Him from your eternal soul as well. Things just don't work like that. We can't pretend to be on His side, and not do whats right.

You can accept the man, yet refute he was a god, son of god, or other "higher power".

In the sense that he wanted to modify Judiasm to accept more people, in the way that we was open and accepting of change, open and accepting of differences, he was liberal.

Now what other men have done in the creation/adaptation/interpretation of the legend/mythology of the man is another thing.

I don't think we should do this in Saucy's Noah-flood thread lets make a new topic.

Ok. The flood was a liberal and voted for GreenPeace

If the flood happened the way the bible says it did, then according to the bible story, there was a God. Surely this God was capable of sending at least two raccoons to Noah and every other animal around. Hell, maybe there were raccoons around at that time.

The thing is.. he didn't. There's no mention in the bible that God braught animals from all over the world to Noah.

Seriously, if he did that, my question would be "Then why the heck don't you use that mojo to just keep them alive yourself if you use it just to bring something over?"

does that include dodo's?

No! They sinned by pimping out thier chicks ...

oohh i don't think I can even finish that joke...

Good point Saucy. Well, except the last bit which is just plain wrong Unless you mean extinct horses found alongside extinct mammoths. You've just proved that these animals didn't die in a global flood, but in local estuarine locations where sediments are swiftly deposited by rivers, or in volcanic ash etc (ever see the remains of the folk who died at Pompeii - still in lifelike positions?)

If they'd drowned in a global food they'd have floated around in the oceans for days or weeks before sinking to the bottom. And where would the sediment to bury them come from? Sediment originates from erosions of land surfcaes. No land surfaces, no erosion.

I want to hear it.

All I can say about Creationist "pseudo science" is that when it can be used to discover new resources (in the manner that geology can), I might consider accepting it. Show me one oil well, one coal mine, one iron mine, etc that was discovered (not rediscovered) using Creationism....You can't, because Creationism is not a logical, orderly, well thought out discipline! It is only an attempt by zealots to "prove" that their particular brand of mythology is true, even if they have to skew facts to fit their predetermined conclusions, or even lie if they have to! - CD

That's a mighty big IF, old son! It doesn't prove that there is a God, it does prove that there (assuming the flood happened) is an evil entity that has so little regard for the lives of innocents that it will snuff them out, just to get the evil ones! To all but zealots, that entity would not be a God, but would be a Demon instead. As for all your little fossils, why would they remain "frozen" in the positions of running uphill or giving birth once they died? The body relaxs totally in death and it wouldn't make sense for them to be in those positions. Like all Creationists, you grasp at straws in your attempt to defend your stance!

I'm curious...

Does anyone have an ancient flood story which comes from a civilization that was not a coastal tribe? Floods are the single most common natural phenomena in the world, and it stands to reason that an ancient people thought of floods first when they considered what would have the power to destroy life on Earth (in much the same way that we first think of meteors, when we think of armageddon scenarios). A coastal civilization with a flood legend wouldn't really impress me, however a series of civilization that have never had to fear floods suddenly being wiped out by one would certainly raise my eyebrow.

Does anyone have any?

I have not heard of any that are from tribes that are not on any kind of water banks.

It's been mostly either coastal ocea, sea, or lake towns and tribes.. and even some on large rivers...

They have found mammoths standing straight up, with partially digested food in its stomach and even food in its mouth. Read the first post again. It was even tropical food. Fossils have been found where there were animals and their prey where it looks like they were putting aside their differences in order to survive by running up a hill to get away from running waters. Look at the Grand Canyon. Scientists say it was created over millions of years of erosion. Not true and not possible. There are several parts of the canyon where the Colorado river would've had to travel up hill to carve out certain parts. That's not possible. You're right about something. Most animals, when they die, just float around, get eaten and are dissolved or just erode. Why then are there massive fossil beds, some with billions of fossils? Why are there fossils of marine animals on mountain tops? Why are there marine fossils at the highest levels of the grand canyon if it was carved out by a river?

I can answer all your questions, and most with the exact same answer, however I suspect you aren't really looking for an explanation, nor will you try to understand one if offered. If, on the other hand, you are willing to set aside your skepticism for a moment, and open up your mind, I would be more than willing to explain to you the basics of geology.

yep.... We can give him the reasons... explain it to him... but to what end?

Tropical food? No it wasn't.

Although they have found mammoths with willow herb in their stomachs.....



Look like, maybe



Both true and possible



The Colorado is what's knwn as a fossil river - it's been flowing alomng the same course for millions of years. During that time, the plateau across which it flows has been uplifted by incredibly slow geological processes. The river cuts down through the land as the land rise - thus creating the Canyon we see today. A similar process has allowed the Bhramaputra to cut right through the Himalaya



Because these fossil beds a) occur in what were once large river esturaies, where dead animals carried down by the river are deposited amongst the mud and sand banks. A process we see happening today. And they built up over milliosn of years.



Because the rocks involved were laid down - as all sedimentary rock are - in shallow seas. Over long periods of geological time, continents shift and these sea beds are upfolded by orogengic (mountain building) processes - to end up in the midst of modern continents like America, or the top of mountains like the Himalaya (which was once the bed of the Tethys Sea)

Honestly... if Saucy just invested in some earth science, geology, and prehistoric anilam biology lessons...