I confess that I am quite the newcomer here, but I can't hold back on this one! I would like to know what the general opinion is about the woman that the government is starving to death in Florida. I know that most born-again types are begging her life to be saved. strangely, I don't see any rabbis defending her life.shouldn't we want her life preserved, even though she is brain-damaged and may not fully come back to consciousness? I think the recent news photos show her suffering as they government refuses to feed her. I can't help feeling that she should be fed and allowed to live! Even convicted mass-murderers are allowed to receive a lethal injection in many states, so this innocent woman is being treated worse than they. I remember, something like this helped start the Holocaust It's a little off-topic, but maybe we can, those of who are not atheists, pray for the government to change their minds. Our governor, jeb bush, said he wanted her feeding tube put back in. Why didn't he go to the hospital and do it himself? Would they have arrested him? Normally, I tend to agree with the liberal/democrat point of view, but I have to agree with the republicans, for once! our theist, atheist, and xian buddies should have a lot to say, too; a lively debate....Seriously, please start a thread about this. I have noticed you guys don't deal with a lot of politics, but PLEASE!
talk about this!
i already started a thread at another website:
http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm7.showMessage?topicID=765.topic
please discuss this, and put aside aliens and the virgin birth and stonehenge, or whatever, for just a moment!

Well, this is a great topic for debate, but alas no one is stupid enough to side with the parents here.

Her brain has been decimated to a pulpy mass of sh**. She can't do anything anymore. What purpose would keeping her alive provide, other than to give a small moral victory to the heinous, bible thumping "pro-life" agenda of the Right Wing?

Someone should just sneak into her hospital and give her the goodnight injection. Make it all be over quick and easily.
-The Truth

at least put her out of her misery....

Wrong Bucko! I am confidently and completely on the side of the parents. The reasoning for her to die is totally lacking. Give me one good reason. Just one.

quality of life is more important than quantity of life. There can be no quality to come from being kept alive the way she is.

However, there are better ways to let her die in peace than starvation. The problem is of course that doctors can not legally assist someone in dieing, so the most they can do is withdraw support.

Pretty sad when you consider we can show more compassion for an animal than we can for a human.

As for the religious against it: I don't get it. If we did not have the technology to keep her alive she would have died years ago. If there is this heaven they speak of why would they postopne her passage to it? I am an existentialist and would rather die and be gone into nothingness than be alive in a vegitative state.

There's no hope of recovery. Her brain is dead and gone, only enough to have bare minimal motor and vocal skills, why keep anyone in this possition?

Joc... would you leave your wife like that? Brain nothing but a puddle, 15 years and no hope for her ever returning? There's love and wanting and hopefulness... but how many more years are they willing to let her body just sit there?

Cripes, I'd want to be unplugged or untubed after a year.... maybe less... *shrugs* If there's no hope..

The_Truth didn't mean literally no one is stupid enough to side with the parents, at least I dont think so. A reason would be because legally the husband makes the decision and she even said herself she does not want to live* that way perhaps?

Anyway im sick of this Terri Schaivo sh**,
There are so many people in this world starving but all people give a damn about is terri schaivo!



Why? At least an animal can actually DO something. And why should people feel more compassion for a human than an animal?

If an animal were in Terri's possition, it would have been taken off support a month or even less than being placed on support. That's the difference.

If a human is wrecked so bad it would cost thousands of dollars to fix them up, and they couldn't afford it, the doctors have to do it anyways, reguardless. If an animal was in that spot.. it would be put down.

Yeah, but in my opinion thats not right, but it will never change anyway.

ofcourse not. humans put more care and value on human life, then animals. It's a superiority thing, no matter how you slice it.

Give me one reason she should stay alive. Shes been suffering for what, 15 years? While you think she could stay a live, and I think she should be laid to rest, we are never going to agree or never going to win, because all of our views are based on perception. Some people think its unethical to kill her, and some think its ethical. Neither answer is the right answer, because it's all based on what the beholder wants to see it as. That is why there is a judge, who although baised and perceptive himself, makes the final decision, and neither of the two parties seek vengeance.

another question is why are they treating her worse than a mass murderer?

Because shes taking up too many T.V. channels.

edit: im being dead serious, its really pissing me off that no news channel knows how to broadcast any other story.

I think it is the Husband who has the authority under the law and wanted the feeding tube taken out. The Judge is following the Husband's wishes.

The parents want her feeding tube replaced, But they also beleive she can eat on her own, But the Judge has ordered no liquids or foot to be feed by mouth.

One Reporter was with her, Or so she said, and asker her to just say "I want to live." and they would have to replace the feeding tube, She repeated "I WANTA" twice and it was said to be so loud the Guard came in and removed the reporter.

She is Guarded, no one is going to do anything to her, Unless someone can over rule the Judge and take charge.

I think the Judge, the Husband, and the Parents should be in the room and have her if possible finish the "I WANTA" For it could have gone either way, If she really was able to say that.

If she is alert, even a bit, this might be a tortureous death sentence. Starvation and dehydration is not a easy way to die.

Heaven awaits her if it is in a moment, or years from now. Death is not a problem, Dying can be. Everyone has to cross over, If it is quickly without a lot of pain or suffering, Great. But if we can avoid a person from suffering, We should.

Ken

Ken

thanks for a good response, ken-i was hoping to stimulate a good debate
i hadn't heard about the reporter incident.
if there is any question, they shouldn't be jsut starving the poor woman to death!

Eckogangsta.

Why don't you sneek into her room with the Good-Night injection? And if you are caught, You can wait on death row for them to give you the Good-Night injection.

She might be on a legal death trip. But jump in and speed it up. The Judge will understand. The Jury will understand. The other inmates will understand. Your frieds and family will understand. And as they strap you to that table, and start looking for the Vein, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND.

Ken

I cant believe how her husband has denied everything the parents have asked for.. he wont let them give her communion, he wont let them burry her... hes a control freak and sick.

Wouldnt suprise me if he caused her to be like that.

i agree with you 100%. We should, as a species, treat all life equally and give it the respect it deserves.

I was refering to the irony that because of the higher standard placed on human life we actually treat it worse in some cases. ("your life is so valuable to us, you must suffer rather than being granted choice and dignity" type of thought)

Yeah, but like I said it will never happen At least there are some laws against animal-cruelty and such though.
I just don't consider Terri Schaivo actually living, though.

Gee I donno... all the crap they've put him through, made up about him.. hatred they've caused to be aimed at him for wanting to let his wife finaly rest for eternity... I'd be a bit bitter, and reluctant to let them have anything to.

yep silver, he is in so much pain he got another woman pregnant twice while terri is in the hospital. so much pain! it drove him to another woman, but he still has time to make sure his wife starves to death!no one deserves that.

You know after all the bad stuff people said aboot him and call him a monster, what kinda monster spends 1 mill on a person when he coulda kept it all for himself?

He won some lawsuit (forgot what for) for 1.3 mill. He did keep 300K, but hes spent the other mill on terry. I think that says alot IMO.



But I honestly just don't see the point in keeping her alive. What is there to live for? I myself would never want to be like that. Maybe if there was a chance she might be able to recover in some way again, I could see keeping her alive. But as far as I know, there isn't.

I do agree tho, it's being covered wayyyy to much.

*shrugs* He moved on... He stays married to Terri out of love and respect, and is fighting to have her rest finaly.

Pardon him for being human...

Sorry, but him wanting the company of someone while his wife is forced to stay hooked up to a feeding tube... I'm happy that he can find the comfort he needed. As for the children... that happens. *shrugs*

Now what's worse. Him caring for his brain dead wife, as well as seeking comfort and love... moving on with his love life... Or people threatening his life, his lover's life, thier childrens life...

And once again.. this is accually none of our business. We have no right to judge him or anyone in this stressfull possition. But hey.. I guess you like to feel superior to him, thinking you're better and would never do something like that, huh?

I can bet you he had no intentions of it either... but there's so many lies and smear campains against him, you'd rather not look for the truth, just eat up the lies. *shrugs*

me? i'm not even sure what i would do if it were me.
i just wanted to see what everyone thought about a current event.
i believe that we are our brother's keeper.
my main issue is starving her to death.
and i can't quite believe she is hopeless.
there are nursing homes full of "hopeless" people.
should we be like the nazis and just shoot them all and then start gassing the "unfit"?
what's next?
people with aids?
cerebral palsy?
parkinson's?
cancer?
this is where it starts.

Either she's in a vegetative state or she's not
Being in a vegetative state means that she is not aware of her surroundings
If thats the case what is wrong with her being kept alive,
I know its a long shot but people have come back from worse before this
I don't think her husband should be a factor anymore
He cares more about his new woman and kids quite clearly than he does for a woman who he hasn't had a decent conversation with in over a decade.
Theres nothing wrong with his attitude its just being human
Her parents don't want her dead
They care the most
surely they should have the last say
Marriage after all is only important if you stick to your vows
He hasn't and she can't
so how much value does their marriage have left
If shes a vegetable she won't mind or care if she's still with the living
If she isn't and has understanding then she is as good as dead already
where is the issue here ?
Lets face it she's a vote winner as far as the government cares.
Hence the hoo ha

Good job you can overreact!

ecko-do you think we should just pull the plug on everyone in a coma?
just let them all starve? why should terri be the only one to receive the privilege?

15 years, no improvement... I'd say it's passed hopeless and danced straight into the feilds of just plain rediculice.

Her husband is *PAYING* for the best care, and this hospice provides it.... that's why she's there.

so we should kill everyone in a coma after a certain deadline?

My sister was in a level 1 coma for a few months. So no I would never want them to pull the plug on everyone in a coma.

But Terri's wishes were to not live that way.

So you're comparing an animal life to a human life? One question, if your dog was drowing and a human(stranger) was drowning, who would you save? All those protestors who protested when that tiger was shot but they rather have it tranqed and if it failed the tiger could've killed people but no, let the poor animal live screw ignorance let's save the poor creature. Why do we complain about starvation when we're justifying it. Starvation is a horrible death, why not give her an enjection if they want to kill her so badly, even a killer has a less painful death than her and that's disgusting. Her brother and parents wwwant her ALIVE. Doesn't that say anything? Her husband is getting something outta of her death, wether it'd be insurance money but I can tell he wants something outta this. This is exactly why I can't be liberal.

You really want me to answer that dog/human drowning?

Yup and honestly.

I'd save my dog.

So would I


And Terri Schaivo isn't in pain from starvation BTW.

I think I pucked in my mouth a little. In the words of my history teacher, "This is what's wrong witht eh world."

EDIT: Ecko, Yeah you can really feel what she's feeling.

Stop burping so much then.

A friend of mine came to me one day and said they want to put a feeding tub in her mother. I knew her mother well, I loved and respected her mother, and I had cared for her mother when my friend could not. It broke my heart to see this wonderful woman's brain be eaten away by aulthimers(sp). She was a vet and had served our country. She had had a wonderful sense of humor, and a sharp mind. So that afternoon my friend and I sat in her pool and discussed her mother’s life and fate. We made a list of what was good and bad about her mother’s life at that time.
The good list was short. She was alive; she could breath on her own. The bad list was long. She was in pain (Pain that has it's origins in the brain is largely untreatable), she could no longer eat or drink, she lived in a constant state of total confusion, she couldn't remember who my friend was, her son-in-law or her grandchildren were. Her life was by in large s**t. My Friend and I decided that neither one of us would like to live like that nor would her mother. We decided that to put in the feeding tub would be crueler than to let nature take its course and let her go on.
Terri is for the most part is already dead. She is not locked in her body, she is not there. Is she in pain? The part of her brain that is still there feels pain. You lay in bed for a month you will be in pain. Will she be in pain when she starves to death, sure. Most of the time you come into this life in pain and you leave it in pain. She can be given medication that will help ease the pain. That is what Hospice is all about to ease the suffering of the dieing not prolong it. It is not that long ago that we would not even be discussing this she would all ready be dead. Most nurses I talk to are amazed that she is not already dead from pneumonia, bed sores, etc...
That says a lot about the care she is getting. As medicine advances we more and more pluck people from the brink of death. The question this brings up is how far do we want to go to cheat death? Is it life at all cost, without regard to quality? I for one and for anyone I love I chose quality.
There is another case, a baby is being kept alive on a machine because when the baby dies the father will be charged with murder. The baby is brain dead all that is there is the body. Should this baby be kept alive at all cost for the sake of life or should it be let go and the father get the punishment he deservers??????????????

I'm sorry about your friends mother--^

I wish people weren't so succeptable to these kind of errors in health, I have something to pray about tonight...

What I find the most ironic thing of all this is the hipocrisy that the husband's side had when they said "Now she's ready to die with dignity" when she's dying of dehydration...

And what may I ask is so dignified about being a vegetable? I have had hospice help with two family members. This woman will not suffer.
Pagans and Christians have one thing in common life after death. Why do christians want to hold this woman back to suffer in pain. If your god wants her to live she would be able to drink and eat on her own. You are standing in his way. Let her fly free of this cocoon. 15 years she has been like this, she is not going to get better.

I thought she was brain dead, it can't get much more hopeless than that. The only thing keeping her alive are the machines around her, without them she would be dead anyway.



You can't compare what the Nazi's did to this situation. Completely and utterly totally different.

As for people with serious illness who are dying...Well people should have the choice to die if they want to. Why spend a pitiful and sometimes excrutiatingly painful last few months on this planet when you could slip away peacefully.

You know guys...there's already a very extensive topic on this in the world affairs section...do we honestly need two?

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...opic=36424&st=0

thanks, seraphina, i didnt know about the other thread.
however, i wanted to discuss this from a spiritual and moral point of view...

I tend to be on the fence about the whole euthanasia thing. In a case where some one is brain dead to the point of being incapable of running the body unassisted it seems like the most humane thing to do but that sort of thinking can be a quick road to damnation. I find it particularly amusing that both liberals and conservatives tend to be as hard headed and dogmatic about the subject. I see a lot of people here who talk about whether we should give humans the respect of animals and asking whats dignified about being a vegetable yet the other side is equally intense in its oppinions.

For my own part I do want to point some thing out. The holocaust was one of the greatest evils in history I think we all agree about that. What people don't realize is it didn't begin as a way of eliminating the jews or other minorities. It began under the logic of euthenasia. People should never forget that taking a life to end suffering is still taking a life. If the person hasn't given verbal or written consent I'm inclined to think its unethical and very dangerous. Why do we have any fundamnetal right to dictate who lives and who dies? Yes I'm aware that we don't treat animals with the same ethics but then again animals lack the abilities for reason and clearly vocalizing wishes that humans have. Do I respect that animals have a right to exist? Certainly. Does that mean they should be treated equally to humans? No and most people seem to agree with me. For man kind to survive we have to occasionally put our species above other animals. Disagree? Let me ask you this if you found a rat in your house would you just leave it there or get rid of it(either with a live trap or a deadly one)? By the logic animals are our equals disease ridden vermin have as much right to live where they please as we do.

@KevinM:

on the vermin: consider that what you call vermin are there because man made a perfect breeding ground for them. Respecting life does not exclude the laws of nature. Animals die, get killed, eaten, etc in nature. At the most basic level, all animals strive to survive. Still, when there is no need to kill, we should not. I personally would make sure my house is not attractive to vermin in the first place. If vermin did appear, I would remove the food supply, and alter the house to make it unappealing to them, along with catch and release (I would let my cats kill them, but I don't want to risk them catching something or becoming more wild)

I'm sorry but I consider any animal that is a proven major cause of disease vermin. Rats carried one of the most destructive plagues in the history of human civilization(the Black Death brought death tolls higher then any thing in the modern world has done yet). Animals deserve respect yes but they do not deserve to be treated like they are human beings. Whether by divine mandate or evolution we've been left in a position above any of the other species on this earth. That doesn't mean we should kill them indiscriminately but when it comes to us or them I say go with us(ie in the saving a drowning dog or drowning person I"ll take the person).

Are you so sure we are on top. I think this shark would beg to differ.

FIrst the only thing that generaly can take down an apex predator is another apex predator(sharks qualify). Second a shark by itself against a human by itself no contest. Give the human all the advantages our considerably superior intelect has given us(explosives, toxins, fire arms, bang sticks) and what do you get a dead shark.

you are dead wrong-this is indeed where the nazis started.they simply shot to death people with tuberculosis, and insane people.


again, this is where it starts!