Hi all.

Before I start I would like to say that I am aware that theirs a belief that extremists and fundamentalists are two different things, but its my opinion and belief that they are pretty much the same thing, its just that fundamentalism is a word used to gloss over extremism.

I personally dont believe in "The Devil" or "Satan" I believe evil comes from the souls of ignorant men and women. But here is a thought for the "religious" extremists and fundamentalists amongst us........

Here is something that occurs to me every time I turn on the news......

Christians believe that Satan is a fallen angel, that stuck his finger up to God, and so was cast into hell. They believe and are always preaching, that Satan is ever powerful, and is the great deceiver.

Lets look at this belief shall we.

"Satan" is ever powerful, and a great trickster, and wants man to suffer, so he deceives people into doing "false good" he makes people think that they are doing it for a greater goodness, but unless you except Jesus as your lord and savour, then it matters not whether you are a good person, or not, because you have been tricked by the ever powerful and deceiving "Satan" so its your own fault that you are burning in hell, or are going to burn in hell.

Lets also look at some of the things Christians believe "Satan" is responsible for……

Hate. War. Ignorance. Fear. Ego. False pride. And suffering, Just to name a few.

Now lets look at the causes of, hate, war, ignorance, fear, false pride, that all lead to the suffering of humanity all over the world..

The main reason wars happen through out the world....

Its mostly because of religious extremism (dont believe me? Turn on your TV) Its caused by people who think they are holy, and think they are doing gods work. Its because of there beliefs that they are better than the next man or women AKA false pride, that causes the hate, that then causes fear that then causes the war that causes so many to suffer.. Its the fear and ignorance about others and that dont think like them that causes them to hate. Do you see the vicious circle that people find them selves in? They are trapped in a world of fear and hate for which they can not escape from. There own "Devil has got a grip on them, but still they believe they are doing Gods work, and that they are holier than everyone else, more false pride and ego.

Is it just me, or do others see this disturbing contradiction?. Please tell me others see it. Because if others can see it, then that brings me hope, that there is hope for our world, and for all that walk on it.

Is it ironic that its these extremist and fundamentalist people are the ones that think they are good, and holy, and godly people, that are in fact causing the wars and suffering around the world in the first place, that they blame on there "Devil"?

Is it ironic that they are doing what they preach the "devil" stands for?.

Is it also ironic that the ones that are anti war activists, and are pro peace are normally the ones that are accused of being Satanists, and being tricked by the devil?.

Is it also ironic that the extremists and fundamentalists are paralysed with fear, there fore are not free?

Isn’t it "Satan" that wants to enslave humans with fear?

Is it just me or do others not see the irony here ? God please tell me I am not the only one.

Christian extremists keep warning me about the dangers of "Satan’s" trickster ways, yet they seem to be the very ones that are hating, suppressing, and fearing, something they keep telling me Satan is responsible for.

I dont know!!!! maybe now I am wondering does "Satan" really exist? And is he so clever, and deceiving like the extremists claim, that he has convinced millions that its OK to kill in the name of war, and that its OK to pass your fear onto the next man or women. Maybe they have feared his tricks so much that they them selves have become prey to the jaws of Satan’s nature of "deceiving" others into thinking that war, and hate, and ones arrogance to condemn and judge another as evil is a good thing to do?.

Satan the great deceiver..... Now think to your self, is he deceiving you ? Evil leaders all over the world have used fear as a way of blinding the masses from the truth, and they have been doing it for as long as humans have existed, why do so many religious extremists and fundamentalists not believe that there "Satan" has not done the same to them? Being that its the people that fear him the most that cause what "Satan" loves most, fear, ignorance, suffering, suppression, war and hate..................

Perhaps "Satan" loves irony, because it gives him a disguise, so that he may live in the hearts of those that fear him.

God wants us to love and to connect with each other. "Satan" wants us to hate and to separate from each other.

Look around the world, look at the wars, and look at the religious wars started by people that hate the other man, look what they do to each other, do you think they pull humanity together? Or do you think that they push humanity apart? You be the judge......

All the best
Faeden

Yup you know them gangsters and murders and adulters and thieves I'm sure they're doing it for God. I turned on my T.V. and that's what I hear everyday, doesn't sound like they're doing it b/c they're thinking they're holy.

Yay go baby go!!! You r my hero!

Hi P4P3R T1G3R2

I think you fail to understand my point. Is that also Ironic?

I dont think that anyone that kills is holy full stop, whether they think they are or not.

All the best
Faeden

Feaden,

I cannot agree more


I often wonder what goes trough their minds...how can they be spreading their Religion, spirituality (wich I think is based, wisdom, understading, fellowship etc...)
when they have to eradicate any who disagree on minor concepts.

They are completly going agains't everything they believe in to spread what they believe in.... I do not understand at all


as you said, it seems that in their Holy quest they have blinded themselves and been fooled by what they fight so hard agains't.


I will never believe that it is God word to kill people, not even one soul.


Where has turning the other cheek go??? A very humble concept, anti-violent concept that I have rarely heard about being practiced by these so called extremist, fundamentalist who preach it so much.


unfortunatly for them, the end does not justify the means. Not with me anyways. By using violence to spread their idea of love. They loose all credibility they might have had. Talk about a waste of wisdom


and yes what you where referring to is extremly ironic. I think that many are aware of it but close their eyes and continue to follow the flock since they have nothing else or no strengh to change it or simply ignore it while praying that these people do not come into power.


cross fingers too for all of our sake.
All violence or wars are just for plain ridiculus reasons in the end.

Hi portal

I agree with you, where has turning the other cheek gone? Jesus taught it for a good reason, but people cant see past there anger, anger which they might well be entitled to as anger is a natural emotion that humans can not escape from, but the real test is how we deal with that anger. Many are failing, hence the current state of the world.



Unfortunately one of them people did get into power on November 6th 2004

All the best
Faeden

I
m sorta on the fence on this issue and usually i have a diffinitive answer when it come to religeon.
But both argue good points.
hmmmmm ponder indeed!

Faeden, keep spreading the word, man. I don't understand why people don't see it. It is so simple. Think about all that could be done if we could do away with war and the need for armies or the money spent on them. We could feed everyone in the world, supply medical care, protect the environment, and explore space. Governments keep looking for more and more ways to kill people. It is insane. We need to look for more and more ways help people become free and happy.

Satan is the prince of accusing angels. He tempts, and if you take the bait, he accuses you before God. This is why he is the great deceiver, but it is GOD who sends him, as a test of free will.

so we're not supposed to think for ourselves then?

Gee, god has a pretty odd sense of humour

Of course they think for themselves!

When the angels of Enoch just *decided* to fall with women, they used free will. And in doing that, from that point on, they broke the golden rule. Of all he things they did, that was the underlying sin of all.

Thinking for themselves however CAN be done (like when some happen to show digust for humanity...), without 'free will'. 'Free will' is the ability to break rules, etc. The ability to sin. If they sin, they get cast out and punsihed just like humans. Humans just get that ability to sin for the entirety of their mortal lives. It is a TEST to see what humans will do with free will. Fallen angels get redemption through free will, i.e. being reincarnated as humans (though not all angels made human are fallen, some have other reasons for a mortal body), thereby, getting the chance to use this testing ground to make up for what they did through their own free will. Rememer that Adam and Eve were angels, who, through disobeying God, incurred mortality for themselves and all their descendants. They, however, being created as a second angel, HAD free will, and knew they did. God told Adam this, and that He wanted to see (and I've said this a million times here) 'Who amoing your race will love or abhor Me' as a result of FREE WILL. God wants love, devotion, and obedience from humans of their own free will. God also told Adam about right and wrong, said He knew Adam's nature (in that He could sin, etc), and that it was ignorance which God hated and cursed more than the sin that was in him (Adam) to sin.

When God told Adam not to touch the tree, He expected him to listen. Enter satan, accusing angel. Goes and tempts them. The rest is history.

Here we go again....

I guess the biblical flood, Soddam and Ghemora...any number of things you can name...god was just having a bad day? Obviously, nope, killing's against god, something he'd never condone, nope, no way, absolutely....


...eih...

Of course God can kill. They did something wrong, and in order to erradicate what they were doing, and to prevent it from corruipting EVERYONE, God decides to wipe them out. God created man. God can destroy what He creates. If God kills them, they go through wherever it is they end up, and in most cases they come back. It's not seen the same way as you see it. If you believed this was all there is, like you do, it seems a bigger deal. At the end of the day, every human dies.

Angels kill. In fact, in most of those cases, it's angels blowing up cities, turing them to salt, killing firstborns, etc. But they are following God's orders. Different angels have different assigned jobs. Some of them include death and destruction. Not ALL angels kill however, but some have that job.

This does not however mean I'm making light of these events, but there were reasons for them.

Here's another side of the story. God sent part of Himself, Jesus, to die for the sins of man, and to allow all those in hell and Sheol (which was everyone besides prophets up to that time) to go into Heaven, and to allow future generations the chance to enter Heaven. Jesus didn't just die, he was tortured, humiliated, mocked, and suffered an absolutely horrific death.

By that logic, do you believe it's acceptable for a parent to murder their child? They did, after all, create it.

No. That is man murdering. Man is not God.

A parent only creates the mortal body, God still creates the soul. The life. No life, no baby.

Death essentially, is taking the life out of a mortal body. The mortal is created by the mortal, the soul is created by God. The soul is immortal.

....

Ladies and gentlemen, please correct me if I'm wrong...but has Ashley Star Child has just credited god as being responsible for where babies come from....

HAHA only in your imagination, she said God places the soul in the baby.

not that I agree with ashley , but she said "soul" not "body" . In her belief system the two are differant .

Yes, the soul and the body are different. This is the difference between life an death. A man and a women can create a baby, with a mortal body, and in the unfortuneate case that it is born stillborn, it has no life, therefore is born dead.

When a person murders someone, they don't just physically kill them, they literally rip their soul, their life out of them.

She also said that without the soul, there is no life...and therefore no baby...which sounds very much to me like crediting god as being the source, does it not?

I was under the impression that babies being from god were left back with other myths like the stork, or babies growing under the cabbage patch

Come to think of it...that's a bit of a sticking point in that free will jargon she claims god gave us...can't have a child unless god decides he's going to stick a soul in it.

What bout having no life in a body don't you understand? Man creates the body, God creates the soul. No soul, no life. A soul is made of electrical energy. No electrical energy in a human (or any other living thing) no life.

It's not a matter of understanding or not...I don't believe in a soul. I consider it, much like god, a supposition. I cannot factor something into an equation if I see no reason to believe it exists in the first place.

I know you don't believe in a soul, but surely you understand the difference between life and death, the electrical energy needed to support to life in ANY lifeform. That there is the soul.

There is a huge leap between electrical current and a soul...you're taking a natural pheneminon, and attributing it to god. Again...this is a supposition.

Very true...and yes, there is irony in what you said. God gave us free will and we just f*#!k it up with war, greed, stereotypes that the tv -society, along with our grandparents, great grandparents(and so on) have drilled in our head. There are people, like myself, who totally believe in God, but also agree that we just make evil stronger by falling into the "irony" of it all.

Exactly!

Searphina,

That 'natural phenomenon' was also described in those ancient texts as being the soul.

Ancient texts also described natural disasters, thunder, and crops growing as the work of god...I fail to see your point Ancient societies were prone to put anything they didn't understand as being down to some divine being or another.

Hi all.

Well it seems the point of the topic has been over looked by many

No offence, but Ashley-Star*Child there are 3 possibilities of category here that you fit into, you are either highly unintelligent, or you watch to much TV (I’m thinking Buffy), or you are a member of some strange cult that over looks contradiction. You even mock the basic principles of Christianity. You certainly seem to be a unique species of human LOL.

We all have the rights to our beliefs, but please do your self a favour, and re-evaluate what you have been saying.

I dont understand why people keep blaming people dyeing on god, one we never where going to live forever, its unnatural both scientifically, and in the eyes of god to live physically forever. Two what would be the point in living forever on earth for a whole eternity? That would be a horrible curse, especially knowing that running along side us all is a world that we came from, one that is unthinkably glorious compared to the physical world. I cant imagine not being able to return home. That would suck with a capitol S

Humans (not God) kill other humans, because of greed, fear, anger, ignorance, and for power obsession. Nature kills humans with out knowledge of doing so, because its just a force, its not self aware, but is a product of the god force. Its laws and rules are natural just as it is natural for us to grow old and die.

Is growing old and dyeing nature murdering us? No, but its the natural order of things, because natures law fundamentally states that people will wither and there bodies will deteriorate, nature allows us on a whole around as much time for the body to keep functioning on earth so that we can have long enough here to learn our chosen lessons (what ever they may be) before returning home in order to re-evaluate what we learnt our last time around on the earth plane.

No one can be for sure, but its highly possible that souls before they come here have all ready made a pact with a higher being, spirit guide, higher self ect ect on how they are going to pass over in order to return home again.

I dont want to sound weird or anything special, but I have had experiences that I pray others can experiences, because they have shown me that the after life is so much not like many people think, many people, especially the fundamentalist and extremist types are in for one hell of a shock (no pun intended)

I only wish some folk could see what I have seen, because there fear of death, life, and god, would diminish if they realised what I have done, that I can stake my life on.

People need to learn that god is not to fear, god it to cherish, love and thank, because god gave us a unique blessing, and brilliant opportunity to come here to the earth and learn great lessons for our own spiritual benefit, but people are missing out on learning anything at all, because of there own fear of god and of "Satan". There spiritual paranoia and fear is so spiritually and physically paralysing, it brakes my heart.

I say to all these god fearing people that are paralysed with fear, ‘what are you going to say to God when its too late, and you realise that you wasted your precious time here on earth because of a silly fear, knowing you could have taken that opportunity to help others and to do unlimited amounts of learning, both for your own spiritual self, and for the greater good of all spirits on there journey?’.

Will you be able to forgive your self? God I hope so.

All the best
Faeden

I would like to see you put that explaination to a family who have been unfortunate enough to experience that.

Actually the beleif is that Lucifer (Satan) was sent to hell for opposeing god, although no one has any idea how.

When you KNOW Faeden, and you do, it is incumbant on you to LIFT people.
There are many in this forum who have a closed mind.
Keep shining your lantern, my good friend.
There are others, such as myself, who are beside you as you speak.
You are not alone.
The deception, and fear MUST be brought to light.
You speak the TRUTH, and that truth shall set you free.

Blessings

What I dont understand is this... Why do people fear god ? Most people fear there enemies. Most people love those that gave us life, whether it be physically or spiritually. To fear God is to make God your enemy, if you think about it. How can you love something you fear? And more so, how can you love something you think might send you to burn in hell for all eternity?

All the best
Faeden

It's not fear so much as respect. You have to respect God.

Hi Ashley-Star*Child

So respecting god is accusing "him" of being the type that would send poor human souls to burn for all eternity just because they got his/her name wrong? I dont know about you Ashley, but to me that is insulting god.

Ashley do you really think something as overwhelmingly intelligent as the creator of the universe(s) would be so petty and shallow that it would sent any soul to burn, just because you did not think in a certain way, or bow to it? Come on Ashley, we are talking about a being above all of us put together. Its humans that have a ego not God.

Stop thinking with fear, and think with your heart, God resides in every heart. Use your heart to help, rather than using fear to paralyse.

All the best
Faeden

Is depends on what your definition of respect is.
Do you have to love some one to respect them or do you have to fear someone to respect them?

None of the above. And I'm highly intelligent, cults are not my thing, and Buffy is better left to my sister (she actually DOES like that show). That's your opinion. Keep it to yourself. Your basic understanding of God, Christianity, or any other Judeo-Christian understanding is evolved from your own opinions. Mine are based on THE ACTUAL TEXTS. If you don't like it, that's not my problem. Opinions ruin he original meaning of these texts. If you don't re-word the opening paragraph I'm going to report you.

'I don't understand why people keep blaming dying (yes, it's dying, not 'dyeing') on God' I already explained that everything with a mortal body dies. End of story.

I don't expect to find any shock in death. I've had my own NDE, and nothing shocks me. So, if that's supposed to change the way I believe, you've got another thing coming.

I never said 'fear God because He will strike you dead'. I'm literally talking about ancient history. However, if you believe that when these 'natural' or otherwise disasters happen all by their little selves even now, I have can tell you from my own first hand account that they most definantly do not. Experiences I'VE had would literally shock the hell out of you. Pun intended. And oh my word there is indeed a hell. Don't feel too secure in your erroneous 'knowledge' that there isn't.

Love God and God will love you. But God has a wrath. There's no way around it. It's either black or white, there's no grey with God.

I only wish you could see what I'VE seen, see how well you sleep after that. Of course it's not all bad, but when you see the good, you see the bad.

The difference between you and me is that what I've seen, I saw and didn't understand, and then found it written in these very texts you claim make people quiver. I found the texts AFTER. One account even lead to these texts, and showed me an event in them before I knew of it's very existence. Know this. In the Bible, it clearly states that unless what you have seen either happens or is verified (such as finding texts AFTER the fact which match what you saw), what you are seeing is not of God, it is of your own mind. God does not back out on promises or prophecies.

Hi Turtle

Thanks for your kind words its good to know I am not alone in my beliefs

Its so blatantly obvious that fear causes horrible monstrosities in the world, why people continue to fear and judge others is beyond me.

All the best
Faeden

This is the last time I hope I have to say this o this thread. THERE IS A HELL. In fact there are MANY hells. Muderers go to hell. Rapists go to hell. People who abuse children, orphans, animals, etc go to hell. Are we getting the picture here? God is NOT just going to let them get away with what they have done and it is thoe they have killed/abused etc which pray to God for justice!

They do eventually get out of hell, but this does NOT change the fact that they go to hell intitially.

Turtle,

If you love someone you damn well respect them.

Man is NOT made for judgement. 'Why do people judge people'? WTF was your last post then hey? GOD JUDGES PEOPLE. And the IRIN QADDISM present YOUR case before God.

Hi Ashley-Star*Child

I stated that you where either unintelligent, watch to much TV, or are apart of a cult, I never said you where any of them You can report me if that is what you wish, if the mods wish to delete my post or edit it then that is up to them, but that would confuse me, as you seem to insult people on a regular basis. And I dont think people bother reporting you, as its not worth it, as you seem to punish your self by your strange contradictions.

I hope you can be at peace with life soon Ashley.

I better start reading texts, so I can learn the wrath of god, because as you say only some of it is bad

All the best
Faeden

It appears you had a Hellish NDE.
While these are less common they do occur, so you are not alone.
I would recommend that you contact NDERF.ORG and submit your NDE. It is anonoymous. Further you can read info on NDE's, see different NDE's that others have submitted, and begin the process of understanding why you had the NDE you did.
If you are young, and this is what I suspect, you need to start to understand WHY you had a hellish NDE.
Most people who had a hellish NDE appear to have had one as a warning.
I have no idea how long ago you experienced this, or your current age.
You need to study your experience more.
Your comments suggest to me that your NDE happened not long ago.
Care to share?

No, I did not.

Hell was another account, after the NDE.

Go back and read the texts. Many of those that see Heaven, see hell. Enoch saw both, Baruch saw both, Jesus even showed the disciples hell. This is not an necessarily an indication of where they are going, but that it exists. It does exist. God made hell, as God made everything else.

Faeden,

I don't personally care what you think, and neither of the 3 are correct. I should report you.

Whatever..
I forgot you had all the answers.
My appologies
Please ignore my last post.

What is it you want to know Turtle? What I saw? If you ask I'll tell you.

I asked if you would share your Nde?
So, could you share your experience

Hi Ashley-Star*child



Go right ahead I really dont mind.

All the best
Faeden

Surely it's possible. This is how a just system is maintained - employment of this tool, eg death penalty.

One day you'll tell em all that you told em so..
I'll be right beside you.

Hi kerkido



In my opinion anyone that kills, or is responsible for killing another, automatically abuses there free will, a will that god gave us, abuse it and you abuse god, therefor anyone that might have been holy, loses that holy title the moment they kill or encourage others to kill, no matter what there reasons. We are not God, we are apart of God, and we should not try and play god. I understand the argument on the death penalty for murderers and rapists, I feel the anger towards those that do evil things to, but two wrongs dont make a right, no matter what angle you look at it from.


What gets me is this…. Many fundamentalist Christians and extremists are "Pro life" if that is the word, they dont agree with taking anothers life on the grounds of compassion, but yet most of them seem to support acts of war, that kills people with no compassion at all, its the same as Bush, he believes that euthanasia is evil, yet he will happily run around the world blowing up little children and women in the name of oil and his "God" doesn’t take a rocket scientist does it to see the contradiction there.

The evils of Sep 11th where evil beyond words, so what does Bush go and do? He does that very same evil back to other countries he believes where responsible, may I ask this ‘Is the world any better now, or is it any worse?’ I think everyone knows the answer in there hearts, even if they dont recognise it.

All the best
Faeden

I agree 100%





It is indeed pretty scary to see Bush once again in power. I hope nothing bad happens.

the problem is that everyone in their heart knows and understand that it is not the way. But fear is controling them, fear for their life, their children, their country. They will do anything to protect themselves.

But what they dont seem to realize is that the ennemy they are fighting agains't is thinking the same thing and he is fighting for the same reason. Talk about a great vicious circle. So now we have 2 countries fighting agains't each other for the same reason, protecting their country, their family, themselves. Unfortunatly we have leaders that see those fears and play on them at their benifits. They show the world as black and white where in actual fact in is only shades of grey.


but what to do??? people just dont wish to see it or think about it. In the end we all feel alone in this, insignificant and we dont see how we can make a difference. So now we are millions thinking of the same thing and not moving.

Hi ThePortal

You make some good points. But remember one man can inspire peace to overwhelm corrupt regimes. Take Gandhi for instance, he is living proof of the power of peaceful actions, to cause change for the better. The saying, "words are mightier than any bomb or gun" is true. People can and will stand up against the evil thats polluting our world sooner or later, I think its just a matter of time, something has to give.

Here are some quotes that I love.

"People try nonviolence for a week, and when it ‘doesn’t work,’ they go back to violence, which hasn’t worked for centuries."

—Theodore Roszak

"When your premise is ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ you can skip a lot of boring and distracting discussions and just get to work."

—Alia Johnson

"Our judgment will always suspect those weapons that can be used with equal prospect of success on both sides."

—William Godwin

"Earth provides enough to satisfy every man’s need, but not every man’s greed."

—Gandhi

"Fight the rich, not their wars!"
—Anonymous (headline in Freedom, January 2003)

"If it's natural to kill, why do men have to go into training to learn to do it?"
—Joan Baez

"War is the health of the state."
—Randolph Bourne

"War is delightful to those who have not experienced it."
—Erasmus

"Never has there been a good war or a bad peace."
—Benjamin Franklin

"I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed there would be no more war."
—Abbie Hoffman

"The guns and the bombs, the rockets and the warships, are all symbols of human failure."
—Lyndon B Johnson

All the best
Faeden