This is a very honest and sincere question which is not intended to debate over whether you believe God exists or not, or if you don't believe it's scientifically possible. Most athiests come from families raised Judeo-Christian, and for whatever reason, decide not to believe anymore.

What I'm asking is not so much why you don't believe, but what it is you feel you have to lose if you did. If say, (and for this thread's sake, this isn't a debate) the existence of God WAS proven, and the soul was proven to be real, what would stop you from believing, and again what is it you believe you'll lose?

This isn't a question about man-made rules, the actual rules of God don't hinder personal freedom. So, what is there to lose?

I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.

Right now, no ones guess is any better than the next persons as to what the truth of the matter is regarding the topic at hand. There are things that I borrow from a lot of different religions that I like that help to put together my spiritual beliefs; many Navajo, some eastern beliefs and a few concepts from the bible that I find comforting, but I do not subscribe to any of them in full.

As for what I or another person may lose in believing is hard to say and would change, case by case. I personally find that many western religions are far too judgemental and fear based to make sense to me personally; I would find it upsetting to believe in some being that was so incredibly cranky and full of contridictions as the bible would have you believe.

If there were proof(which should be easy for an omnipotent being), I would imagine I would believe fully at that point, but as it stands that hasn't happened.

When the soul has been proven to exist, and god along with it; then we will talk...

The thing is, we lose nothing by not believing in God: unless, of course, he's an evil, malevolent, jealous God who demands total subservience (as described in the Old Testament).....

If there is a God and an after-life, then any athiest leading a 'good' life will be in for a pleasant surpise.

If there is no God or after-life, then any religious person leading a 'good' life is in for a nasty shock.

So the question really is, why believe in God?

As a Deist, I do accept the existence of a Creator, but unlike the God of Abraham's three bloody children, a Creator that does not interact with his creations; having given them total free will (unlike the strings attached free will of Yahweh). I have to agree with FluffyBunny and especially with Essan! Why should we believe in Abraham's God? - CD

Well, like I've said, I'm talking referring to man-made rules here, which alot of them are.



Well, sure if they lead a good life. But what if I told you it's the belief in God of your own free will that's the whole point of your being. All other rules aside, that that is what it all boiled down to?

Anyway, I'm not here to change anyone's mind with this thread. I just would like to hear the other side of the story.

'Good people' die and go to hell everyday man..you cant get to heaven on your own. 'Not by works lest any man should boast.'..

Which is why I wonder about the Pope..

- Dark

Strange, that is not what the Christians of 1st and 2nd century CE believed....they believed the same as their Jewish ancestors, that works could get you to heaven. It wasn't until the Church founded by the 12 Apostles in Jerusalem was destroyed, when the Romans sacked the town, that the Paulist believe became church dogma. So those closest to your Savior did not believe in "by faith alone" and I would assume that they, not Paul (who never knew Jesus), would know what he taught! Just a logically arrived at opinion - CD

Firstly, what is there to gain.
It would seem that religion has a "reward" for simply believing. But how can believing be assessed? Everything a person chooses to believe may be justified, even if they are oblivious towards the fact that they know there is a God.
God had better not put me in hell, because I for one, a very assertive man have justified the reasons of why I should not believe in him. Even though, ultimately I (may) believe he exists already.
The topic of religion is foul and resembles a formal debate, and there must always be two sides - the affirmative and the negative.
Either can win, depending on how well they have justified themselves. It wouldn't be fair if God punished a very well spoken debater, who had infact had more quality to his debate than the affirmative.

Well, technically, there is alot to gain. Afterlife aside.

Like I said, what if the whole point of everyone's existence was a test, an experiment, to see what you would do with free will.

For every test there are results, and they are good or bad depending on how your scored on the test.

But anyway, continue everyone, I want to hear your side.

I personally think you have everything to gain if you believe in God.

First off, if you believe in God, but it turns out that He really isn't real, well you still die happy. Since there wouldn't be an afterlife, you experience nothing after death and don't know the difference because you're dead. No judgement exists.

However, if you don't believe in God, and it turns out that He is real, well you won't die happy. There'll be an afterlife and a judgement.

Secondly, believing in God on earth here has many rewards. I've seen so many peoples' lives changed for the better. People becoming healed miraculously, or cleaning up their addictive habits, or overcoming depression and suicidal tendencies, or avoiding sleeping around with random partners, or even just becoming a more bright and happy person and helping others become the same way. I've seen so many new-born Christians just become completely different and better people after their conversion. It's like they're washed clean of all their regrets in life.

That's my take on it.

*shrugs* I stopped believing in od... and really lost nothing...

However, when I finaly found my path, and embrassed the Goddess.. and my guide, as well as many others... I have gained so much... I've found more respect for myself, for others, for life.. and the Earth around... *shrugs* There's more to life, and I've felt fullfilled every inch of my travel.

I am sure he had christ in his heart, and thats whats save you...


LBD

Pascals wager = Ad Baculum .

cant think of anything else to say .

Your freedom. Christians keeping talking about how their god gives humanity free-will to believe or not, but if you don't you will roast in hell for eternity. Somehow that doesn't strike me as free-will.



What are the "actual rules" of god? Would that be the 10 commandments or the teachings of Jesus? There are so many "rules" in the Bible that is it hard to tell where they came from.
I break the first commandment everyday. To do otherwise would hinder my personal freedom. Many indigenous peoples around the world where punished, enslaved, and killed because they would not follow the first commandment. Is that free-will? Yes I would have a lot to lose if I bowed down to your god Asley. I think I will pass.

You have the free will to jump off a cliff right? If you wanted to go leap off a building, you could... You would end up falling and the end result would be ultimately death, but it was still your free will...


LBD

Under true free will, you could jump off the cliff/building and die and that would be it, nothing else would happen to you but under Yahweh's "free will" after you died, the suffering attendent with your demise would not be enough, you would roast in Hell for all eternity, because you broke one of his strings attached to the free will he granted. That is not true free will! Sorry, I will pass - CD

Then I would say that anyone who doesn't believe in God but is able to live a good and productive life would have an equal standing.



If Ashley is correct and everything we do is a test, then anybody who is "washed clean" of their regrets would be missing the point entirely.

I am sure that was their free-will, too. If you are told to confess to a crime or you will be hit with a cattle prod repeatedly would you confess? That is what your god demands. Admit you are a sinner and believe in me or be put in a lake of fire. I wonder how that would stand up in a court of law in the good old USA. I can't remember what they call it but there is a word for it.


Well put SC. *sigh*

It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what one does not believe. Thomas Paine -The Age of Reason

Aside from the obvious twist on a variety of Pascal's Wager, your question is not answerable Ashely, without considering the why's, the reasons of a person (an atheist in this case) no belief in God, the soul, or the supernatural generally. It is exactly these reasons that determine what there is to lose, or to gain when considering to adopt a god into one's life. Which is why I thought your above statement was quite revealing. Even you know that there is no objective proof for the existence of supernatural, and that such metaphysics is not testable and scientifically impossible to be shown as actual things. (Things are made of atoms. Things have axiomatic properties.) In short, you know that the proof is just not there and as such, are not based in a discernible reality.

But to your question, what do I have to lose? My integrity for one. After applied reason and sincere investigation of supernaturalism through and by an evolving epistemology since I was a young teen, lead me to conclude that "God" is logically and internally inconsistent, impossible (especially by Judeo-Christian reckoning), and thus self-refuting. For me to believe in a concept that is as problematic and irrational as god is an otherwise a trespass of reality and a delusion.

I choose not to participate in a delusion.

Now I realize that you may come back to me and say that all I am doing is using "man-made rules," as opposed to god's rules. However, that is exactly the case and your dichotomy in other words Ashley, is false when you try separate human reason from any other conclusion than that god exist that you are hoping to guarantee. (This is also a fallacy in thought known as a circulus in demonstrando.) We are either men or we are gods. Simple. Religion and theistic belief only intersects humanity and must henceforth borrow from it.

I know God exists. But who is the question?

Hinduists
Christians
Buddhists
Jews
Shaktists
more more more!

The answer is you dont know who. That is why I dont choose religion as I could be wrong when im passed and find out in spirit form.

Maybe we were all put on the earth to have different religions to worship God in many forms. Maybe God is what you breath, the God inside of you that you need to find to bring out your inner light of joy.

Faith can bring power reguardless what religion you worship. Ever notice the golden circles around religious paintings? They represent faithful auras.

Yin and Yang is the balace of light and darkness.

Well first off I feel the free will in Christianity is BS, you can't have free will if God has a plan for you. If God has set up everything that is going to happen to me and has given me a destiny of sorts than there is nothing I can do to change that path because ultimately I am going to end up where God has decided I am going to go. For that matter if God is all knowing he already knows weather or not I am going to wind up in Heaven or Hell, so I have to ask what is the point of trying?

Quicksand has really summed this argument up very well. I'm not going to run around fooling myself and pretending to believe in a God that doesn't exist simply because there is a chance I might wind up in a pit of fire. Nothing is going to scare me into faking my way through because of something that may or may not happen in the after life. Nor do I want to follow a God that says worship me or I'll damn you to eternal hell fire no matter how good of a person that you are...something is inherently wrong with that kind of reasoning.

Well, I could have put in my two sence, but I think everyone else beat me to it.... In other words, I agree with their words.

Dear Miss Star*child



I think you just answered your own question Ashley.

Its because of hateful, and extremists, and fear based people that push people away from them beliefs.

Not saying that everyone in the Judeo beliefs are extremists or are mean and ignorant, many are not, but lets face it many are. I dont think its causing people to become atheists, but it is causing others to seek more advanced spiritual enlightenment. People are slowly waking up to the fact that God is not some angry man sitting on a throne, and that god is everythingness, and love above anything we living spirits can understand.

As long as people use religion to spread fear to control people, and hate to suppress people, then the intelligent kind and reasonable hearted, will continue to embrace love rather than contradictory brainwashing

All the best
Faeden

Okay!

Since the question is related with beliefs; and since I reject any type of religious fanatic belief, meaning, any type of misconception or misapprehension of the reality of a Deity or Theous (God) that is written in any sacred book. Because, one thing is the reality and another the fancy idea or belief that is form within the mind of the one who do not experience the reality in its entirety to himself.

Therefore, I consider myself an Atheist, or one who is against the fancy ideas or beliefs (idols) that are mental forms within the mind of Religious Learned Ignoramuses. So, from that point of view I am an Atheist!

Q. So, what do I have to lose, if I accept those fancy idols, or mental illusory Gods who inhabit the mind or Religious Fanatics?

A. I have to lose my intelligence!


But, I AM NOT an Atheous, because I know I am the lower part or Human Soul of One of the many Gods of the Universe!

Loge, you are not an atheist. Well, perhaps a weak atheist – one that doesn't believe in my God –

Leppie, my friend the leprechaun who rides an invisible pink unicorn, that reveals to me the transcendental knowledge that I must drink Guiness everyday.

Well. I come from a mixed background. What I would loose if I believed this monothesistic "god" that is beyond the univers existed is the following:

1) my reason for living
2) my hope for humanity
3) "love"
4) my sanity
5) logic, rational thought, and responsibility

Its not like I choose whether to believe or not... I could go around saying I believe in god but that would be a lie and I still would.

The easiest way to answer your question is this: What have you got to lose in being an atheist?



If it was proven, I wouldnt dismiss it.



And what if I told you that being skeptical and disbelieving in god thats the whole point of your being?



What if the god doesnt like those who go on faith and decides to punish you for believing in god and congradulate the atheists?



I've seen so many peoples lives changed for the better with atheism too...

Wow, a lot of you, no offense, sound kinda contradictory. "If I don't accept your God, I'm going to spend an eternity in hell. I don't like that idea. I pass."

Hmmm....to believe in God. For me, it's a better life than the life I lived before becoming a Christian. God had a plan for me before I was born, but it was up to me to accept that plan. It's up to me to choose God or to not choose God. IN THIS LIFE we have a free will. If there is a Christian God, then He created man for the purpose of fellowship and told them full well that to rebel against Him is to go to hell. "Oh well, I choose to rebel!" Then you get upset with God that there is an idea of hell. Why?

Its not contradictory.... more along the lines of "I think that if god exists, he wouldnt send people to hell for not believing in him... that is what your god does, so I dont believe he is god."

Oh, I get it. Thanks Stellar

I honestly understand that point of view. I myself struggle with the idea of hell. The only way I can reason it is that bad people need to be punished. Just like when someone commits a crime against society, society puts them away. If there is a God, then for this God there are two ultimate realities. Heaven and hell. A true heaven wouldn't be heaven if there are murderers and rapists and evil people walking around. God's putting away the people who chose to refuse him and do evil. He doesn't want those kind of people corrupting His perfect creations. Simple as that.

Hi saucy







I am guessing here, as I dont know your personal beliefs, so I am going on the beliefs of most extremist Christians, but isn’t not believing in the Christian god rebelling against him? You have to believe in Jesus as your lord and savour, or you go to hell?

If you believe that then you have contradicted your self a gooden.



Naught Naughty saucy, you should not be doubting the Christian god.



Perhaps you would like to look at THIS thread. God has nothing to do with hell. I’m only upset at the idea of hell, because so many people linger there unnecessarily .

All the best
Faeden

You should doubt everything...

take this for consideration...


i kidnap your kid and tell you that in order for them to survive you have to believe in god, if you dont believe in god i will kill you kid...what would you do?


sounds like blackmale to me

What have you got to lose if you believe? The freedom of being agnostic and/or being an athiest is wonderful. You won't know what I'm talking about unless you are one of the two, it feels freer than anything felt before. Freedom to study, freedom to learn, freedom to practice, and a more neutral approach on solving problems. I now use logic and science to solve my problems, as well as understand the workings of the world, instead of saying "God did this, God did that" -- you don't learn anything that way and your too afraid to accept the possibilities; sometimes these fears can be extremely powerful and helpful to those who learn to harness them.

Not believing is great. You get a whole new prespective of life, and I give it credit for teaching me as much as I have.

What have you got to gain by believing? Nothing really, because it all comes down to perception. I just wish sometimes people could see BOTH sides of the fight.

Even though i realize that most of the stuff talked about here are amazingly hard to proove(Bigfoot,Aliens,Cupacabra,Ghosts) I just can't get my logical mind around this whole "god" thing.
Maybe if there was some solid proof(Ark of the covenant,Noah's ark,Holy Grail)
I would find it easier to believe.

My belief is Athiest.I think Jesus was a real person and was probably crucified but i don;t think that he was the son of god or do i believe that god exists.

If there is a god or you believe in a god then its not actually you that is living your life, you are living your life by 'gods' rules. Therefore you are not really free, not free like an athiest.

An Athiest can broaden their horizans. They are free to do what they want, to learn for themself, to decide for themself and to think for themself.

A stronger believer apparently already knows everything anyway, so whats the point in living? god has set the path, god says what you can and cant do, god demands you to worship him, the book tells you everything. Whats the point in life on earth, its suddenly a pretty meaningless 'test' that god already knows the answer for anyway.


Beliving in god does not solve any of worlds problems.

All this MAGICAL stuff happened when people were not educated, they exgagerated everything that happened. You have to understand how these people lived in the past and the knowledge they did and didnt have.

I have absaloutly NO REASON to believe in anything unless I see it or there is mountains of evidence for it. Ghosts are everywhere? god is everywhere?.. well simple > SHOW URSELF !

its that simple

I like your opinions, well thought and wise. I never knew you guys to be that way.

I'll turn it around: what do you have to lose by discarding all that dogma? Any God worth worshipping isn't going to condemn people to an eternity in hell just for questioning his existence.

if you don't want to be with God while you're alive, then why would you want to be with Him while you're dead?

Exactly. Its a win-win situation.

God doesnt exist, the only reprucussion is a lot of leftover knowledge of that religion.

If God does exist? You have everything to lose when you die without him.

Everyone on this forum seems to be intelligent, logical thinkers. I cant understand why you wouldnt see the logic in this whole deal. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

- Dark

Wrong. Read my other post.



Wrong. Read my other post.

Wrong PERIOD.

what you are losing is everything of THIS life. No more free will, loss of respect for life since this is not the "Real thing", loss of respect for other life since it is merely a tool provided you.

Your other post:


I dont see a straight answer to my question here.

- Dark

Awrite sum substance finally lol. I see more clearly now where the atheists are coming from..

- Dark

...and a life wasted on false beliefs, your whole life would have been a lie, you would have missed out on things that you will never get the chance to do again soley for the reason you thought god saw them as wrong and sinful, thats like comming back from vacation a day after the one dollar bmw giveaway sale ended.



as long as you didnt break any of the commandments....there shouldnt be much to worry about...i believe the first commandment says "thou shall not worship any other god before me", not "thou must worship me" so being an athiest clears that one right up



well now that you see the logic, maybe you can understand

Welp.. as I said.. I lost nothing, and gained alot, Dark... besides, I still don't understand why whether or not someone worships the christanity way matters to people. Live, let live. If someone worships many gods, or the Goddess, or nothing at all shouldn't really be any matter to you, or any christian.

First of all I would lie like thief and say I believe in whatever god you want me too. Then I would get my well armed red-neck Pagan and Christian friends (yup red-necks come in both flavors)and my sword and hunt you down like a dog. Pagans don’t hand out forgiveness on a silver plate every Sunday, you have to earn it.

I got the word “to coercionist confession”. It means to obtain a confession through torture or threats.

lol Once again man, you've turned on the bulb over my head.
Funny how I never considered the whole wasted life scenario..I just figured that it was sumthin worth sacrificing if, assuming God did exist, what awaited in the afterlife would more than make up for it.

If he didnt, then you'd be lying on ur deathbed cursing and frustrated cuz theres no time left lol

Idunno..

- Dark

Oh your post was taken into account as well, SC

Umm... did you bother reading the rest of the post, specifically the part where I quote someone else who said the same thing you did and answered him?