Does anything move faster than the speed of light? Can electricty be seen?

I'll reference that in case you have any doubts:



Source:Electrical Energy

As I've said before, the soul is composed of electric energy (and yes, that also comes from a text, millenia old, before electricity was even invented). You cannot see it being released from the body, but if one conducted an experiment on it, I'm sure you'll find it's there (I've gone through how before). What do you use to revive a person? Electricty on the heart. The heart has also been linked to the soul. Not the soul, but connected to it.

That is the soul within the body.

Spirits. Spirits are composed also of electricty, but as is the case with angels, also fire. It takes heat with electrical energy to make it propel as fast as the speed of light. Angels have also been referred to as stars. A star reflects down to Earth through the speed of light. Just to recap on the T-Rex thread 'space beings' in no way implied aliens. I've told you before, aliens are the Nephilim, demons, offspring of the angels with mortal women in spirit form as talked of in the Testament of Solomon. Anyway, I'm not going through that now. Angels, therefore, as are described by many people to be 'light beings' able to travel at the speed of light. People who have conscious visions of angels, Mary, etc describe a 'force field'. Or, rather, electromagnetic field.

As I also said before, souls are said to be impure spirits, angels fallen or not, pure spirits, and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, divine spirits.

Which energy is more pure? The speed of light, or electrical energy? Does that above statement not correlate?

You can't see air, but it exists. You can't see gravity, but it exists. You can't see atoms, but it exists. You can't see a soul. But it exists.

Speaking of air, when asrology was first brought to Earth by angels, if it were not by them, how then did people discover the element of air if it cannot be seen? Don't tell me wind, or breathing because you'd have to be aware of it. If peopel were so damn primitive, how did they know? You can't see air.

The 4 elements are still now the 4 basic elements of our planet. Earth = all visible and tangible matter, Air = everything from atoms to electrical energy (Aquarius, and air sign, rules over lightning), Fire = heat and fire in all it's forms, water = all liquids in all it's forms.

Just to elaborate on that further with the elements. Your body requires heat and blood (blood is also ruled by the element of fire), is 90% water, is physical matter, and required air to breathe. The body is the conductor, the electical energy the soul, the lifeforce. If a body has no electrical energy in it, you are clinically dead. Electical energy, can survive a clinically dead body.

Interesting, you are trying to make an inference between metaphysical "things" like spirit and soul and electricity, gravity, the speed of light, atoms because we can not see them with our eyes. While it is true that we can not directly see electricity or atoms or gravity with our eyes, we can observe indirectly that these phenomenona do indeed exist. Accordingly, you are proposing the same with the soul and spirit, that they must exist because we can not see them.

There are problems with this inference and I will explain.

Objection 01

Electricity is caused when "electrons and protons are attracted by particles with opposite charges and the repulsion of particles with the same charge." Magnetism is a a force that exists between two electrically charged moving particles. Both forces are interrelated and was combined into a single theory by James Clerk Maxwell in 1873.

Anyway, in the electromagnetic force is one the four fundamental forces with, strong nuclear force; weak nuclear force; ravitational force bringing up the rear. However, all this has little to do with the spiritual force or soul force that you are proposing. LOL. Cheap shot I know. Accordingly, if the spiritual force or soul force is in anyway related to the electromagnetic spectrum we, with instruments, should be able to detect its frequency.

For instance, common every day radio waves consume the longer waves of the spectrum at at a lower frequency. X and Gamma Rays are shorter wavelengths and thus inhabit the higher end of the spectrum. Colors that we see, the visible spectrum, are on the longer end of the spectrum but inhabit only a very small bit of it.

Now, if a spiritual force or soul force does exist, we should be able to plot it on this graph. But we do not. I wonder why not?

Or if you'd like to point out on the graph (see below, attached) which part of the electromagnetic spectrum that the soul inhabits, please do. Looks pretty filled up to me.

Objection 02

I can posit many things that we do not see. My pal Leppie, the leprechaun that rides an invisible pink unicorn and plays the butt trumpet is one of them. Do we accept his existence, because I can not offer any evidence that he does? No. To take your argument that just because we cannot see some things, like a soul or spirit or god or angels or whatever metaphysical doodad, does not makes any of them real is just a fallacy of logic.

Absence of evidence is not evidence!

So really, the strength of your inference falls through based upon the structure of your argument.


Now a little housekeeping.

01.

There is a branch of physics that deals with superluminal particles. Is Faster Than Light Travel or Communication Possible? This is a scholarly extract about the possibility. Whether it is possible or not has really nothing to do with the the issue involved here, and you have not connected it back to the corpus of your argument.


02.
Air is not an element. It is made of seperate elements that are plotted out the Periodic Chart of Elements, which there are 103 them. Most are natural, with the 3 or so synthesized in a lab.

Air is made up usually around 3 of them. Nitrogen, oxygen, and some helium. Small amount of argon and carbon can be found too.


03.
This is, once again, Aristotelean-like physics (with a mix of astrology for good measure).

Aristotelean physics states that water, fire, heat and cold are the elements of the universe and that these "elements" is what compels things to move toward their natural state. (Whatever that means?!?!?!) This is incorrect of course. They are not the basic elements of the Earth but properties of Thermodynamics – or processes of nature. Aristotle was also wrong when he stated that the Earth is at the center of the universe (making the Earth "special"), and that an impelling force was required for motion. Galileo's proved this was wrong with demonstrating that phenomenon of air resistance effects the motion of objects and that motion was governed by inertia or – the tendency of a body to resist acceleration; the tendency of a body at rest to remain at rest or of a body in straight line motion to stay in motion in a straight line unless acted on by an outside force.

//as an aside: Where do you get this stuff Ashley? The Book of Enoch? Well if you are, it doesn't have its science right and is using a far outdated predictions of electromagnetism and physics. Use a science book for science like you did with the definition of electricity.
Just a humble observation here.

*sigh* References to lighting isnt evidence that they had knowledge of electronics or electricity.



The body radiates an EM field, you can read that... I'm quire sure that electricity leaving the body at death HASNT been found to happen.



*sigh* What's your point? The heart has not been linked to the soul in any way other than through guesses and beliefs. Using electricity to attempt to jump start a persons heart is not evidence whatsoever of a soul.

It doesnt even have to be electricity... why do you think that in first aid, you apply chest compressions?



Let me ask you this: What kind of technology are they using?




You should stop telling us that and start telling us this if necessairy:

"I've told you before, I believe aliens are the Nephilim, demons, offspring of the angels with mortal women in spirit form as talked of in the Testament of Solomon."




Umm, the speed of light is a speed... electrical energy is a form of energy... you cant call any of them "more pure than the other'



You can see air, and you can measure it.



You can measure gravity.



You sure can see atoms, and you can measure them.



Cant see or measure a soul. You have no right to use absolutes and say it exists. You can say you believe it exists, but thats it.



Extreme ideas: 1. Aliens. 2. they had advanced technology.

Realistic ideas: 1. They noticed that you cant breath underwater. 2. Wind.

People of the past werent as stupid as you think.



You're quite aware that you cant breath underwater...



We're not the ones saying they were "so damn primitive".



The 4 elements you're speaking of were considered the same type of "elements" which we now consider Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon, etc. I hope you're aware though, that all matter is made from atoms... Air really has nothing to do with electrical energy, water is H2O, and Earth basically just encompases it all.



So can the atoms in the food we eat. We cant survive without food either... but food isnt "us". Theres no evidence that any of the energy in us actually holds our personalities, basically, us.

Think about this:

The physical body is called ORGANISM, because it is a compound of organs;
the tissue from any organ is a compound of cells,
any cell is a compound of molecules,
Every molecule is a compound of atoms
Every atom is mainly a compound of Protons, Neutrons and Electrons,
And, if we disintegrate the atom we liberate energy!

So, in the last synthesis we physically are condensed energy!

Only IF that energy you are citing was specified information like in a series of boolean statements. But it is not.

The only way you can extract any energy from an atom is to physically split it with a particle accelerator. So yes, you may isolate a hydrogen atom from a prokaryote or eukaryote cell from my body, and then release that energy, but that is all your doing is releasing the energy and not uncovering anything like information.

Besides, if the soul or spirit is a form of electromagnetism, we should be able to measure that radiation via the way that this radiation propagates.

But we can't. Because the soul or spirit is not a form of electromagnetism.

So, this model fails.

Hello!? I gave you all a chance to do an experiment on this a while back. I even outlined how it should be done. The challenge still stands.

And where is this experiment of yours?

I don't have something like 2000 posts on this board.

You have to be around when someone dies. To make it fair, one believer, one athiest, so there's no bias either way. Measure the electric energy leaving the body as it dies. Simple.

I.E. check the amount of electric energy in the room before the person dies, and after, as it disperses into the room, out of the body.

Most however, for the very nature of this experiment, have refused.

I just got a wireless keyboard which keeps cutting out, damned thing.

And no, you can't test it on an object. It has to be living. You could test it on an animal, as it too has a soul, but I'd suggest trying it on a human first, as humans are the one's up for such debate.

Okay, I'm going to round up a believer, an atheist, a voltmeter, and my Beretta. Nobel prize, here I come!

Go for it.

It doesn't matter whether one is a believer or not. A control experiment under lab conditions would be able to prove either way that a spirit or soul exits by its propagation. Should be easy to do. Heck we don't see microwaves or X Rays, but we can measure it and affix and assign its wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum.

Anyway, you are positing that the soul or spirit is a measurable and quantifiable phenomena like Gamma or X Rays etc, therefore, we should be able to measure either by the length and speed of the radiation's wavelength emanating from the body like a radio transmitter. And like a transmitter, we should be able to trace where the this spirit/soul propagates to that receiver at the other end.

However, there is no such thing as a spirit or soul and there is no way to measure something that doesn't exist.

animals have souls? Boy is my old 10th grade teacher Father Ted going to be surprised....

No, to make it fair, one believer, one athiest.

Don't tell me what exists or what doesn't. DO THE EXPERIMENT.




Well, now you have something to teach your teacher.

It's not my position, so it's your chore to prove Star Child.

Just measure this soul and spirit and tell me where it exists on the electromagnetic spectrum. (See attached graphic.)

Again, it doesn't matter a shread whether someone is a believer or not. You stating that this the soul and spirit is a measurable phenomena. Ergo, all people have it regardless of belief.

The science and data should prove it out.

That is your task Ashley.

Let me know how it goes.

No, I want one of you athiests to do it, alongside a believer. That is your task. See for yourself.

Fine whatever, one believer and one evil atheist. It won't matter. Data is what matters. Observable and measurable propagation is what matters.

You are making the affrimitive, therefore the burden of proof is on you.

Otherwise, you might as well as just admit that you believe in my supernatural pal "Leppie, the leprechaun that rides an invisible pink unicorn and plays the butt trumpet" because you don't believe him. It is now your task to prove that Leppie doesn't exist either.

Shifting the burden of proof isn't proof Star Child. You don't even understand the basic underpinnings of reason and how beliefs are justified. My, learn something and get your nose out of that horrible Book of Enoch that is disharmonious with nature.

You are quite being the hypocrite. I don't need to prove it, you do. I know it exists.

And furthermore, since you are sooo sure it does not exist, go do the experiment.

Wrong, Ashley.
You say it exists, yet you offer nothing to back it up. You have something to prove, no one else. So prove it, or stop wasting everyones time.

Does it look like I'M the only one on this Earth that believes a soul exists? I do believe the numbers speak differently.

You want so bad to prove it doesn't. You need proof. You do it. Even if I did it, it would be fogged off as a 'believer's claim'. You do it. Athiests need proof. Believers don't.

I love it. I push and explain the science of electromagnetism, and how you can prove it by pointing out eithers propagation on the electromagnetic spectrum and you won't even do that.

Because you can't.

So try to shift the burden of proof on me, my supernatural pal Leppie and the others on this board will just laugh at you.

You're talking in circles. Do the experiment for all the reasons said above.

Okay first off you are hypocritical. You blasted me for talkign about others beleifs. I mean wasn't that the question to this thread on if we beleive in suicides go to hell. And I stated in nicely saying may god bless you. Obvisouly if you went to church and asked a preacher that, they would say same thing.

I was not being mean in any way. What i first stated was nothing directed towards you. I told what my beleifs were. Why is it you are pointing anyone else how for beleiving same thing I do. I have a right to stand for my beleifs. I'am obvisouly no where near hitler. Where else you are the one being cruel and acting in hatred. I never said anything mean to the person. I just said that I beleive that you will go to hell. I mean, wasn't that what he person was asking? well wasn't it?

Also, you are pagean.. You've spoke many times against God and Hell. So how can you stand up and speak against something that you so wholeheartadly speak against the beleif itself. In fact, I'am not cruel. I have a good heart. Me saying what I beleive in is nothing wrong. You say you love christians but you bash they're beleifs that suicider's go to hell. Now that's also be hypocritical. I think you need to take a chip off your shoulder and chill. I did nothing wrong.

I mean that would be like someone posting about your peagean and you make a comment about after life and I bash you for it cuz it was your beleif. You'd be all over me like a dog. Especially if I say I love pageans after sitting and bashing the beliefs.

If you love christians then you respect they're beleifs and opinions like you so many times have told me and others to do. You would respect that christians religion reads the bible and beleives what is written in it. So then how can you bash me for what i said in my beleifs and them being christianity beleifs.

And stating that I beleive you will go to hell for commiting suicide don't make me evil, cruel and certainly not hitler. I don't like the NWO, the illuminiti, or none of that. Don't bash my beleifs when you say you love the people that follow my beleifs.

& since suicide post was locked up i wanted to get this out.,..nothing more

Again, not my position Ashley. You believe in both, so the burden rests on you as Burnside has rightly pointed out.

You posited the the soul and spirit is a form of electromagnetism, so all you need to is show it on the chart by measuring it wavelength and propagation of each phenomena.

Please. I am patiently waiting for you to prove your assertion.

You want to use science and science terms, well, you better start living by it if you want to use it to legitimize your beliefs.

You cant prove a negative. Its up to YOU to prove that you're claim has any credibility what so ever.



And, say for instance that there was a drop in energy, what would that prove? It does not prove in any way that the energy is the beings soul...



You're the one telling US what exists and what doesnt.



No, you make the claim so its up to you to prove it. Also, you dont "know" that it exists, you believe it exists.



You made the claim, you are soooo sure that it does exist, so prove it.



It doesnt matter what people believe, you are making the claim, hence it is up to you to prove it.



Believers who talk in absolutes DO need proof.

And fine, we'll see whats going to happen. I'm actually disecting a frog today in bio, so I'll bring along some of the fancy equipment and measure for any electrical discharge when the frog is put down.

Slaughtering an innocent frog for the sake of a classroom experiment. I see how much science respects life....

Anyway, go ahead, you're in the prefect position to do it. Measure the electrical energy leaving that poor slaughtered frog before you.

Either way, I'll find someone from both sides of the fence to do this. Since no one here cares to take up this challenge. It didn't, however, equire killing anything, it required being around when a living thing died.

Yippie! Let's count the fallacies!!!

• Argumentum ad populum
• shifting the burden of proof all based upon a:
• argumentum ad ignorantiam

Very good. You left out argumentum ad hominem and a little tu quoque in this post, but you more than made up for them in your other posts to Stellar.

Hubba! Hubba!

Quicksand is having too much fun here.

Anyway, religious belief isn't supposed require evidence, or so I thought.

I tell you what: give me one person from the atheist camp and one from the believer camp and I'll do the experiment myself.

We'll read about the results a few days from now in the "World of the Bizarre" section. The title will be something like: "Man Charged With Murder in Bizarre Afterlife Experiment."

Like I said, killing is NOT the intent. The idea would be a hospital.

And yes, one from both sides. Go ahead.

Even if Stellar's little frog does radiate some electrical energy upon cessation of life, it still remains to be established that the ambient radiant energy is anything like a soul or spirit. If we assume that the soul and spirit have all the same facets that our personality is attributed, then we would be looking for something like a computer database of information. Therefore, the soul or spirit should be able to be measured by its electromagnetic propagation and amplitude of its wavelengths and qualified by boolean-like statements that we can read. Again, as I stated before we are looking for Transmitter to Receiver model.

So, while its true that when the neurochemistry of our brain relies on a weak electricity to transmit information within the brain or body, it is still resident within the body and does not propagate outside of the body. The body does radiate heat, but that radiation is not anything that can be read as boolean-like statements of information as there is no specified information from this radiant heat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And Redneck is right, I think I am enjoy myself a little much,

It would be a damn interesting experiment though if it was set up correctly... interesting to see the results.

The only way YOU KNOW that energy can be extracted from any atom is by physically splitting it with a particle accelerator.

And yes, you may isolate a hydrogen atom from a prokaryote or eukaryote cell from your body, and then release that energy, but that is all YOU CAN DO.

However, there exist other procedures, unknown for present man of science, in order to release energy from any given atom in order to uncover any type of cosmic and natural information from within them in relation with the soul or spirit of any organism of matter or antimatter; but in order to be capable to measure such a radiation via the way that this radiation propagates, it is indispensable to develop other senses!

Present humanoids cannot verify this; because the electromagnetism related to the soul or spirit is beyond this tridimensional world of Euclid.

Loge, you've refuted yourself. If present humans can't confirm anything you are saying, then how could humans in the past confirm it and how can you confirm it yourself now?

Didn't see that one coming did you?

Also, I don't know why even have to say this but your existence is confined by the spatiotemporal nature of the universe. It is the very "stuff" of the universe so to speak. We do not exist outside it, but within this predicated framework. What your proposing is that this alleged electromagnetism of the soul and spirit exists here and there – outside of spatiotemporal nature of existence. Basically, you've made a pretty good argument for its nonexistence of either once again.

Didn't see that one coming either, did you?

The "spatiotemporal" is meaningless because the spatical aspect is only known through the flux of the chronometric aspect! Its like saying "X = Y and Y = X, therefore Z does not exist."

Meaningless? How so? I don't follow your reasoning Stone.

Consider that the very word "spatiotemporal" refers to that the nature of the universe is space and time. Or space-time if you like. Therefor the word encapsulates X = X; Y = Y; Z = Z : (X)(Y)(Z) = spatiotemporality. Space-time is measured by the speed of light as an absolute constant moving through space.

I have not refuted myself. What I refuted was yourself because if present humans cannot confirm anything I am saying it is for the simple reason that they ARE NOT humans, Humans in the past could confirm it, because they were TRUE HUMANS and not humanoids as many specimens of this present humanity, and if I can confirm this by myself now, it is because I am psychosomatically regenerating myself!

Didn't see that one coming did you?

Also, I know why I have to say this but your reasoning is confined by the tridimensional spatiotemporal nature of the universe just as a slug is confined only to a leaf, ignoring (because of its limited capacity for perception) that its universe is just a leaf of the many leaves of the tree of life.

Every leaf is the very "stuff" of one part of the universe so to speak. We do not exist outside of any of these, but within the predicated framework of a slug, only one leaf exists.

What my proposing is that this alleged electromagnetism of the soul and spirit exists here and there – outside and inside of us in any spatiotemporal dimension of any leaf of existence.

Basically, I have made a pretty good argument for your nonexistent cognizance of either once again, due to the simple fact that you cannot completely perceive your own nature.

Didn't see that one coming either, did you?

Loge, unless you are necessary entity that exists in all possible worlds, then you can not make absolute statements about reality.

Therefor, you did refute yourself with this silly conjecture that "present humanoids cannot verify this." You are a humanoid present in the world today, so your statement by your very definition is false because here you are today. And all this stuff about real humans or whatever you can not state with certainty, because you are not omniscient. The fact that you had to learn this theology is evidence of that.

Also when you state that every leaf is the very "stuff" of one part of the universe so to speak. We do not exist outside of any of these, but within the predicated framework of a slug, only one leaf exists. Is pretty much the point of it. There is this universe that we can know through our senses and by extension with our tools.

You're making a claim of truth that by very definition is beyond even you to experience.

Taking drugs and antibiotics for the sake of saving yourself at the expense of millions of lives. I see how much you respect life...

Oh, btw, I may not agree with it, but I have done it all and guess what? Nothing out of the ordinary... Btw, the classroom can back me up... and you know what? They're believers!

I experienced it! this is why I am talking about it, and knowing with anticipation that other slugs wont believe me!

But, ask me if I care!

Since you are here, now, a human and alive within this universe any experience you have is of this universe and not outside this universe.

Occam's Razor cuts to a natural explanation of your experience, and not supernaturalism.

how have you become so enlightened when you claim you are of a species incapable of such enlightenment? Are you really a grey ?

Didn't occur to you that Maybe I am a slug that became a butterfly!

Very interesting stuff here.
We are having the same argument as this on another site:

The blackness of death caused by the collapse of the senses, recedes and is dispelled by the light of Spirit. When the brain shuts down, the electromagnetic field permeating the central nervous system dissolves, and the luminous energy field disengages form its former home, the body, to become one with Spirit again.

This is like the light of dawn breaking on a cloudless sky, and you recognize that you are one with the dawning light. We are all star travelers, and at some point we re-embark on our great journey through the Milkey Way and beyond.

Many people have neglected the spiritual dimension in there pursuit of material gratification.
We cannot take our worldy possessions into the beyond.
Dont settle for comfort over discovery.
Material consumption cannot substitute for SELF DISCOVERY.

God is (PURE)ENERGY. Inexhaustible consciousness which is in everthing.

The indigenous North American Indians had it right.
They did not believe in the sky-God religions.

They had great homage for Nature.
But more importantly, much more importantly they had great veneration for the components of the Nature Of Nature.

According to them God is a gigantic energy field, infinite consciousness which is in all that exists. And we are individual consciousness in this ocean of consciousness. It is the same fundamental law as inseparable droplets of water joining togather to form the seas.

We are all cells in the individual body of God.

We are the God Matrix

We are the energy within the energy, mass producing form the Original.


Quicksand...How do you account for NDEs?

Nice sermon Turtle.


And NDE are relevant how?

You are either dead or you are living. So near "near" death experiences are false the way it is represented by it's believers.

Take into consideration of a 1990 study of Jansen which showed that ketamine can lead to an altering of state of consciousness. In order to illicit a so called near death experience all I need to do is inject you with 50 to 100 grams of ketamine (Domino et al., 1965; Rumpf ,1969; Collier, 1972; Siegel,1978, 1980,1981; Stafford, 1977; Lilly, 1978; Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981; White, 1982; Ghoniem et al., 1985; Sputz, 1989; Jansen, 1989a,b, 1990b, 1993). which effects the NMDA receptors in the cerebral cortex, mostly in the temporal and frontal lobes where these areas have been identified as the main places where cognitive processing, memory, and perception are housed.

So, in other words my sermorner, the NDE is an hallucination that one can experience with out dying and is a natural result of biology and the physics of chemistry and not metaphysics.

So then in the world according to Quicksand, people that experience NDEs are just ketamine junkies....lololol

Most brain based theorists who are not lackadaisacal crap researchers like Susan Blackmore or you will tell you that their are many mechanisms which lead to the experiences. They dont explain what happens once those mechanisms are activated. In other words we may need our brains to interpret the physical world but the dimensions we exist in, including the spirit world may exist independently of whether we want to see them or not. Our ability to precieve them is dependent on our brains as we are part of the physical world, but our consciousness can exist without our bodies.
(EDIT)
Tell me then how does one explain these:
- The OBE. I find it inexplicable how someone with a flat EEG could observe resucitation procedures from a vantage point above the room. I can understand a part of the consciousness being aware of surroundings and maybe even people if the patient were merely sedated but, without brain activity, which has been observed and reported, I find it scientifically impossible to explain.

During my NDE I can vividly recall being seperate from my body, the only connection being a thread that connected me to my body. I have spent 3 years looking into NDEs to bring some sort of understanding and I can tell you a Dream doesn't fit into the description.

Raymond Moody, Jeff and Jody Long have spent their lives studying NDE/ObE incidents, and they do not state facts like you do. Moody himself has stated that while they have begun to induce NDE like experiences in the labratory, which is where you get your Keratonin crack, but they can not explain where they go, nor how they can come back with the info that they do.
If science can not totally understand an NDE how can you?

There are interesting events about altered states of conciousness if you study Native American Spirituality. Shamans, or indian doctors have for centuries, gone into altered states to heal. A tradition that still goes on today. Yes they usually use dfrugs to induce thier journey into an altered state, but it does take them somewhere, a place that we do not understand.

I agree that an NDE could be a product of the brain, BUT since there is still so much we do not understand about the brain, I hope you allow me to hold judgement until some more studies are done, for I tend to maintain an open mind about things and do not fear those that may shake my world and bring down my house of cards.

Well, the world according to Quicksand based upon empirical science and testing NDE's can be made by upping the levels of Ketamine.


Never heard of her. I double checked my post and I didn't cite her. And my post didn't cite a theory but an actual test that made a NDE.


Well I totally agree with you that we need our brains " to interpret the physical world but the dimensions we exist in." And that's the gist of it. (Actually, it's not that we need our brains per se, our brains are required regardless of what we need. Our desires have nothing to do with it.)

You state that the spirit world is independent of our world the one in which we physically inhabit. That being the case, how can we even have this ability to perceive this other world? As I stated before, you're either living or dead. Therefor these "NDE's" are the experiences of a living mind, not a dead mind. And a mind that is hallucinating as chemicals in the brain are messed up and elevated.


Turtle, is it not explicable. The fact is that we already have prior knowledge of what rooms look like. I myself, sometimes as I fall asleep, get the feeling that I am flying above the room. Heck, when I was a young punk kid in my teens, I could drink myself into that state and bed spin around the room from a vantage point above myself. (I was odd, I always like the bed spins.)

Anyway, it takes eyes to see the surroundings, and I think it is possible that other senses are still aware of the room during an NDE event, but undetectable under the threshold of current technology. Regardless, the brain is still alive in some sense and the experience is encapsulated in this world, not between the two, and definitely not the other.


Just because science can not totally understand something, should we accept any answer because it seems to answer what we don't know? Ask yourself this Turtle.


Glad to hear you made it through and your brain manage to stay in this world.

You say that a dream doesn't quite fit the description. I grant you that. Hallucinations, although dream-like, are not dreams. The activity of the brain is behaving differently in some respects.


No doubt it is interesting. However, these altered states are achieved by altering the brain chemistry. Again, a natural result of biology and the physics of chemistry and not metaphysics.


Of course, there is still much we don't understand about that grey matter occupying our skulls. Again, should we accept any answer because it seems to satisfy a gap in our knowldedge?

I've myself have an OBE when I was about 10 or 12, however, after learning about the brain in some details and expanding my knowledge base and how one acquires knowledge, it's impossible that I left my body and flew over these kids in my experience. It was a fun and still odd experience to this day, but however unlikely that it was a realtime real-world event.

Turtle, I can't give you the understanding or the resolution that you require. Your NDE was obviously very real to you and of profound significance and this is why (I am guessing here) you are very interested yet in this subject.

So thank you for sharing Turtle. It has given me some things to consider.

Quicksand

Please don't think I am one of the NDErs who is blinded by the faith thing.
I appreciate your comments, because I asked them, and I can give as well as well as recieve

You are correct that the experience has had a huge impact on me, as it does everyone that has one, but saying that I like to keep an open mind and look at ALL evidence regarding NDE's, and I can not dismiss the fact that it was a product of the brain.
That is my search, and the reasons i enjoy our communications.
i try not to let fear become my captain, so let me have it.
You appear to have done some research so I appreciate your comments.
Yopu can take off the kid gloves though

Hey Turtle, I took the kid gloves off and I realize that you are keeping an open mind regarding your experience which is why I came at you hard, but I do respect the experience you had.

So that being said, I think we are in much agreement than dis.

And thanks!

Wait a minute so what if the body disperses or releases electricity when one dies that don't mean that it was the soul. And besides if the soul was electricity that would mean the soul is a material thing which contradicts that heaven and god is supposedly non-material (not of this universe). And many religions say that heaven God won't except the body or worldly objects, because it's material.

If it is so that the soul is electricity a material thing then that would mean "God" and "Heaven" are "material" things also. So That would mean God and Heaven is in this universe. So God can be a being that is reachable in our human form, and heaven and hell is a place that is reachable in human form if we know where it is. Just a theological theory.

Quicksand

I would like to propose a debate one on one with you, if you have the time.
Game??