Debate Suggestion by Roswell Man.

"My Gene's Did It !"- An excuse or a reality? Is criminal behaviour born or bred.

Looking for 2 participants. This will be a formal debate, one introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion.

Any questions feel free to PM Dis or myself.

I will argue that criminal behavior is bred. Not genetic!

I'll debate for a genetic predisposition towards criminal behaviour.

Fabulous! Okay this should be interesting

Disinterested will be debating that criminal behaviour is Genetic
Kryso will be debating that criminal behaviour is Bred


The debate will consist of an introduction, 5 bodily posts showing countering of the opponent, good style, persuasive arguments and information relevant to the topic, and a conclusion. Remember to quote your sources, no flaming or offensive langauage.

Please try try to keep to the time limits of the rules which are 7 days per post. If for any reason this is not possible during the course of the debate please let me know.

Good luck & have fun!

In this debate I will attempt to prove that there is in fact a genetic predisposition to violent or criminal behaviours.

Although I do not intend to prove that genetics are in fact an excuse for wrongful behaviours, my main focuses will be in terms of researching personality, human behaviour, learning processes, development and mental disorders and how much of a role heredity can play in these factors.

We will take a look at certain killers who have had seemingly perfect childhoods, but still managed achieve unusually high levels of agression; and different studies performed in regards to this exact issue.


(Short but sweet, I'm sure this will be a fun debate).

Thanks Disinterested…

I will debate the fact that when we are born we are an empty shell - nothing pre-programmed! I will try to show that there are no abnormal cerebral abnormalities that can be used as an excuse for criminal behavior. I will argue that we are who we are, and become this from being nurtured by our surroundings and parental guidance, and our interactions with other people and the media and interracial programs, (for example - computer games and movies!)

I will also use real life examples to prove this theory and uphold my side of the debate.

I will use examples of serial killers who have had traumatic backgrounds that have lead to their currant situation, and how the way they were treated as a child has mental and emotional consequences for when they become adults.

I will endeavor to prove these facts, and that technological countries – such as America – have a higher rate of serial killers than any other country!

Lastly, I look forward to having this debate with you Disinterested.

Back to you!

Body Post #1

Twin studies have been a valuable tool in personality and behaviour research. Many psychologists have examined twins who have never met and raised by different families. Typically, they will find many similar personalities.

The following link provides helpful information.


The link does go on to explain that there have been many similarities in twins in this study, many of them that seem to be attributed mainly to genetics.

One of the first theories of human personality was the humoral theory. It came up with the following personality types:

Choleric : Individuals have excess levels of yellow bile; and were generally irritable.
Melancholic : Individuals have excess levels of black bile; and were generally pessimistic.
Phlegmatic : Individuals have excess levels of phlegm; and generally laid-back.
Sanguine : Have excess levels of blood, and generally cheerful.

This theory has its obvious flaws – there couldn’t possibly be only four personality types. Especially not because of excess fluids in one’s body. However, it was the most plausible theory at the time, and the basis of it is still being researched today: that personality was affected by our biological make-up.

Take the example of Gary Hirte. This was a “perfect kid in a perfect town”. He had excellent grades and was a model student. There did not seem to be any environmental factors that would contribute to his violent behaviour.

Not all children who have grown up in less-than-favourable households or have negative childhood experiences grow up to be violent criminals. In fact, it seems that only a small percentage of them do. Genetics must play some part in determining what kind of adult they will grow up to be. If it were based solely on environmental factors, wouldn’t that mean that any one of us could be at risk of becoming aggressive and violent?

Post 1

I understand what you are saying, that twins who have been raised apart have the same personalities, even idiosyncrasies!

Source
But the genetics that’s makes each of us an individual has been simply split in two, creating two people who are identical in emotional and genetic makeup. Because these studies show it is only identical twins that do this mirroring of personalities. And even though they are brought up in different homes the similarities of the household’s environments are mainly the same.

Source
Doctors and scientists admit that even thought they are looking into these subjects; no real headway is being done to identify certain genes that effect behavior!


Source
The debate for nature vs. nurture has been raging for years, and twin studies are the foremost in this research. But as it has been said above, no evidence has yet come forth to prove this speculation.


Gary Hirte killed Glenn Kopitske in cold blood, but as you read through the story you pick up hints that he was already unstable…

Slicing of warts and calluses with an eight-inch blade is not normal behaviour!

This was no spur of the moment, “My genes made me do it,” he planned this killing down to the smallest detail.

Does this sound like a person who just upped and killed a person, because his genes dictated he would be a violent person, even if he doesn’t want to be? It sounds like a person who has real psychological and emotional problems and he took this out on an unarmed innocent person.

So, what makes a person violent, become a killer? Nature or Nurtured?

Source

My post is very long, so in my next post I will look deeper into what makes a person become a killer!

Body Post #2



Of course he was already unstable. Whether you’re on the side of nature or nurture, there is no such thing as an individual who will ‘up and kill somebody’. These are individuals who’ve exhibited violent behavior (often beginning as young children) and had it escalate to murder.

Certain mental disorders are said have a genetic predisposition that is affected by external (environmental) factors. Though this is not to say that all individuals who may be predisposed will end up with the disorder, it simply states that for those who do, it can be attributed to genetics.



Source

There have also been findings that genetics play a stronger role in individuals who develop Bi-Polar Disorder than those who suffer from depression.



Source

It is important to remember that despite environmental factors, genetics do play a part in anyone’s behaviour. External stimuli can affect each individual differently and have a different effect. If we looked solely at environmental factors that contributed to a person’s violent and unpredictable behaviour, there would definitely be more cases of antisocial personality disorder or schizophrenia in the world.

Some of us have had terrible childhoods, and grow stronger because of it. Others become afraid, withdrawn and angry. With similar environments, why are they so different?

Post 2





This researcher found that it was damage, but by accidents, not genetics!



But then they go on to say…


(Link) Predestined Serial Killers Annabella Rutigliano

Either from accident or environment, serial killers (just one example I said I will use) have different ideas about why they became what they have.


(Link) Crime Library

I have used serial killers as an example because they have higher profiles. And a lot of study has been done into what makes them tick - to use an expression. Most talk about how they had been treated as a child, and how that reflected in how they treated their victims.


(Link) Children and television violence


(Link) The Dangers of Violent Video Games Raising Kids, Instead of Parents

Today more than ever children play games depicting violence, and this is obviously affecting them!


(Link) Can A Video Game Lead To Murder?

Parents sit back, ignoring the fact that their children are playing games with 18 certificates! And the above is a direct result of that. A child’s mind is sensitive, as stated above - when most serial killers state they became killers because of what happened in their childhood.

But let's change tracks slightly, what if what you are debating is true, and it is proven without a doubt , that it’s genetic! Would it end up like the Minority Report, people being placed in institutions, because their genes state they will be violent – killers. Will they be forced to have lobotomies? It sounds extreme, but they are doing extreme things. If it’s found without doubt that it is genetic, then what?

(Edited for spelling)

Body Post #3



Link

Another link that explains quite well how genetics can influence behaviour.



I agree, it is quite obvious that the majority of these serial killers were victims themselves. Often subjected to physical and sexual abuse, having their childhoods robbed of them and growing up with out proper role models, or even love.

But if we do take a look at the individuals who have contributed to the horrendous childhoods of some of these killers -- could we not say that they were sick themselves? How often have you heard that people are born alcoholics, and remain so until their last day of life?

Who's to say that some of these children have not inherited their parents' illnesses?



I agree with your point here. Whether or not we are talking about genetic or environmental factors, a growing mind should not be subjected to such violence and gore.

However, I would like to point out that most children who have played or seen these programs, movies or video games do not exhibit violent behaviours or tendencies as they grow older.

On a personal note, I am completely against violent video games or shows for children under the age of 18. I believe that they are disturbing and in poor taste.



What I've been saying all along, is that I do not (and never will!) believe that violent behaviour could be solely placed on genetic factors. If this were the case, no one would ever be held responsible for their actions.

My main point has been a genetic predisposition, that certain individuals are more likely to develop violent tendencies because of their genes.

If, hypothetically, we contributed this 100% to genetics, then there are still many options available -- ranging from early therapy to developing medication to prevent outbursts before they happen.

It is quite difficult to say, especially when there is still such a large grey area between environment and genes.

Post 3



In the sense that these people contributed to the killers mental state, is without question. But I’ve never heard of the saying, Born an Alcoholic. Just like criminals I believe their surroundings and upbringing solely contribute to the individuals’ way of escaping from reality, by drinking.



True, simply playing a game, doesn’t affect everyone, in the sense that they are going to become killers. But after a simple game of martial arts on the computer, or watching fighting on the TV, children are instantly doing play-acting, kicking, punching, and having a little fight.
It’s similar to when parents smoke; you often see youngsters play-acting, by using a pen as a cigarette, and copying their parents – everything they see registers in their growing minds.



Can this simply be because there are more acceptable to their environment? Their brain more like a sponge? Certain individuals’ brain synapses are more vulnerable -more tender mentally?


Media and Violence Study

But can these studies be accurate?


Study Results!

This study shows that violence is having a massive impact on children and the way they themselves act and perceive everything around them.

Only this week in England two eleven year olds and one twelve year old have been questioned in the connection to the attempted murder of a five year old boy, who they tried to hang!

Could all three of these children have the gene that makes them violent? Or did they become influenced by the programs and films, and games they have played?
Source

It has the same kind of ring to it as the Jamie Bulger case, when the 2 year old was brutally murdered by two eleven year olds!
The Story of little Jamie Bulger

In my opinion society are breeding the next generation of murders and psychopaths.

Body Post #4


On the contrary, there seem to be an increasing number of studies that point to alcoholism as being entirely physiological. Link



True, children do like to act out what they see. However, how often to boys play games of ‘cops and robbers’, where it’s the good guys against the bad? They play with toy guns, and until recently, no one was really bothered by it; not because the number of violent crimes have increased, but rather the disturbing nature of the crimes.



Then what would make certain children more vulnerable than others?

Children are not born with a 'blank slate', they do posess the most basic motor functions (crying, suckling) when they are but a few minutes old.

Research has shown that our brains continue to grow and develop until we are in our early 20's. Until then, yes, their brains to act like a sponge, absorbing all surrounding stimuli. However, what varies is what aspects of their environment children absorb, and how their brain filters the information.



It's extremely difficult to say. Many psychologists and psychiatrists will not diagnose a child as being a sociopath, because they are naturally irrational and impulsive.

Children also have a fasination with death and mortality. It is not uncommon to find them drawing 'morbid' pictures, asking questions about death and the afterlife. Many of them don't understand the full extent of what it means to die -- they don't properly understand that they will never come back.


Agreed. There aren't any preventative measures in place to deter violent behaviours before they begin.

Post 4



It’s an interesting article. And like most things the theory is there, the evidence is building, but trying to locate the particular gene that causes the offending problem. But even they state, ‘may cause’!



Source



It’s interesting what cut-off lines parents’ use. Only yesterday I saw a mother tell her two children off for kicking each other, but it was okay to playact sword fights and shooting everyone with huge plastic guns! One even shouting: “Your dead, I just blew your brains out all over the garden.” And this from a 6 year old!
Some parents can’t see that this violent playacting is just as bad for their children as physical violence. Because children don’t see this as bad because their parents let them do it.


So true. Once again step in the parental lies. Parents come up with the strangest explanations as to where the dead loved ones have gone. I know it’s hard for a child to understand, but surely the truth is always the best answer. Some explanations leave the children confused and bewildered.

Here s a website with just a sample of crimes done by children.

Link

There is loads of information retaining to child crimes and violence.

Parents have a lot to answer to. There is no universal book on raising children, and I can’t really relate because I have none myself, but I was one once, lol. But children are lied too from such a young age. And this continues throughout their developing life as a child. And parents have such strange standards, maybe because it was okay when they were growing up? Physical violence seems to be bad, but watching it on TV, games and playacting violence doesn’t seem to make parents - in today’s societies - to batter an eyelid.

And one of my other points is sex is such a candid issue now, that children are being subjected to it at all stages of childhood. It’s in most stores, and placing it on the top shelf doesn’t make it invisible! And the standards on TV now have lowered so much: years ago it would be an 18 and not shown before the watershed. Now its everywhere and distorting children’s view of sex and violence. I say this because it is warping there perspective towards sex and violence, because it most cases its showing children that men are dominant over the females.

All-in-all, we have so much being forced at children everyday - TV, games, advertising (with violent references), music that sings of violence and pain, all this distorting young sensitive minds. Minds that soak it up like sponges. Minds that see all this, see how violence is packaged and sold, seeing it in such wide and varied areas that they become numb to it – it no longer seems wrong.

(Edited for spelling)

Body Post #5


I agree that children are exposed to more violent media in today's society. However, that does not mean that it is breeding a generation of killers.


Of course sex is everywhere these days -- it seems to be a huge seller. Sexual innuendos are everywhere you turn, even in children's shows or movies! (As an example, I found the Scooby-Doo movie inappropriate for children).

However, this doesn't provoke violent behaviour. At the most, it can influence early sexual activity. But this alone isn't an environmental factor, considering arousal can begin before a child is even a year old. I would say that if sex on television is doing anything, it is giving teens and 'tweens' more incentive to explore their feelings without guilt.


Back to genetic predispositions, here is a link of a study conducted at the University of Wisconsin-Madison:

Link

As time goes on, more and more studies are seeing that there is likely a physiological reason for violent or criminal behaviour. The reasons vary, however, the end result is often the same.

The studies would suggest that some individuals are simply more prone to violent behaviour or mental disorders, that can be brought on by their surroundings. For example, a child with this predisposition could be set off by a negative upbringing (like flicking a switch) and a child without it can grow up to become a functional member of society.

Here is another link that explains various biological possibilities for psychopathic behaviour. It discusses the possibility of an extra chromosome, high testosterone levels and various kinds of brain damage as reason for criminal behaviour.

There is definitely no shortage of ideas on what makes a psychopath.

Kryso has no computer at the moment so debate is on hold .

Unless there are objections, I'm going to throw this debate to the judges. It's been on hold for quite some time, and I think that there is enough material to judge.

We won't take any points off Kryso's debate, since he was unable to finish due to circumstances beyond his control.

Cheers.

Awesome Debate you guys! Too bad Kryso's Compy Broke.
Debator 1: Disinterested
Relevancy:9
Countering:7
Style:9
Persuasiveness:10
TOTAL:35

Debator 2:Kryso
Relevancy:8
Countering:7
Style: 7
Persausiveness:8
TOTAL:30

I would have liked to see the Conclusion, but it was a very interesting and enjoyable debate.

Very interteresting debate both very good points

Debator 1: Disinterested
Relevancy:10
Countering:9
Style:9
Persuasiveness:10
TOTAL:38

Debator 2:Kryso
Relevancy:10
Countering:8
Style: 8
Persausiveness:9
TOTAL:35

Bear with me, this is the first time I've judged an INTERNET debate (I do real life ones sometimes).

I loved this debate, it just kept getting stronger as it went along! Despite some really long posts, I was drawn to every sentence.

Debator 1: Disinterested
Relevancy: 10
Countering: 10
Style:8
Persuasiveness:9
TOTAL: 37

Debator 2:Kryso
Relevancy: 10
Countering: 9
Style: 7
Persausiveness: 10
TOTAL: 36

Very, very close, but in my opinion, Disinterested came out on top

Great work from both parties

Thanks judges . And the results are in!

Disinterested wins 36.6 points.
Kryso finishes with 33.6 points.

That was pretty close! Such a shame it was not concluded but Congratulations to both of you on producing a really exciting, well written and concise debate!