If the universe is a constant becoming, then forcedly the Being has to be always in a state of evaluation.

Therefore (within religion and science) in a universe of a constant becoming belief or theory is just the consequence of stagnated minds that do not flow with it.

Stagnated minds create their own world based merely on unreal believable appearances, where concepts of God, Matter, heaven, hell, Energy, salvation, damnation are illusions.

There is no truth in belief or theory; the only reality is within the Being who is evaluated within this eternal becoming.

If there were a God who is not eternally evaluated within this eternal becoming it would not be infinite and would necessarily have a finite state, which would have been already attained. Therefore, if that which is called God is trapped within any Belief, then it would not be God but just a finite ludicrous idea.

And if becoming could pass into a system of belief or theory, then unquestionably, becoming would become devaluated and will end.

One must admit that if one is not experiencing this becoming, then one being is stagnant and ceasing its eternal evaluation-- because when one is not becoming one is losing the revaluation of one’s eternal values and his/her life become meaningless and nonsensical.

The values of a Being who is in tune with this eternal becoming remain always in a constant evaluation, thus It can never believe in anything, otherwise, It will devaluate its eternal values.

The Being who is always in tune with this eternal Becoming cannot be evaluated by belief or theory, because the stagnated minds are not becoming, thus, there is nothing within belief or theory that can evaluate or measure this being.

Therefore, if God is an infinite becoming, it cannot be store within any religious belief; or scientific theory otherwise, it will be no God, but something else, this is, a finite Being, an Idol or false image stagnated within ludicrous ideas.

Hi Loge

That’s why I am not naive enough to give God a name, or a face. Just knowing GOD/IT/SHE/HE/THEM/ENERGY exists, and that it is the source of love and light is good enough for me

These people that think they know the name and face of the creator of all life, through out the universes, are horribly arrogant in my opinion. Even if the true face and workings of god where revealed to human kind, our puny brains would never be able to comprehend the awe and vastness of the brilliance of the divines mind and being. Its like an ant trying to perform human brain surgery.

I believe you can see parts of the divine nature within nature and its workings.

All the best
Faeden

How very true fella's

sounds like mystical capitalism

the functioning of the universe as a complex system is without a "god/gods", it is a system in non-equalibrium, self-organizing, discontinuous, and has order through fluctuation.

"god" is just a warm fuzzy label which detracts from the true nature of reality.

Hi hyperactive

Since I believe god works like nature, and nature works like god, and that god is nature, and nature is god, I do not have a problem with how science says that the universe works, I look at nature all around me on earth, and look up into space and know whether one works it out through mathematics, or through spiritual wisdom, the cogs that make life and the universe work will always turn the same way, and always will, so science to me is just another religion.

all the best
Faeden

so the interactions of the parts of the system define "god" to you? (thus the whole is greater than the parts?)

for me the systems themselves are the answer. I can understand the thinking of the interconnectedness of the parts as a "god"-feature, perhaps. I just don't subscribe to using such subjective terms.

science=religion? It can become one, and when it does dangerous things can happen. science needs to remain open and under scrutiny. When any theory becomes accepted as-is without further scrutiny, it indeed is as religion. Closed systems of thought do none of us any good.

An economic system in which the profits of means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned or stagnant within the pockets of the few, thus developing covetousness within the mind of these few hypocritical tyrants, is not proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market!

Therefore, the intelligent functioning of the universe cannot by all means be compared with that multifaceted system of capitalism or communism where their hypocritical "god or gods" resemble Medusas that as insatiable Molochs (astute politicians) devour any system, thus creating a non-equilibrated selfish organization of learned ignoramuses who discontinue the harmony of becoming, and who cunningly hide their power through fluctuation.

"god or no god" is just a warm fuzzy label for their businesses which detract from the true nature of their ominous distorted reality.

@loge:

i can certianly understand the concept of the intelligent universe, perhaps even sentient. Yet it can not be proven. (you missed the discussion QS and I had on this very topic)

The most important thing though is that even if the universe is sentient, that does not make the universe (or its sentience) a "god".

calling it a "god" is to detract from everything it is, much in the same way calling a man a "god" or "prophet" takes away from what the man really was. It is a great disservice (dangerous, and foolhardy) to all to apply labels such as "god" to the unknown, the complex, the greater than oneself.

So order comes from none order??? Complexity comes from nothing?

as above, so below; as below, so above: law of correspondence of hermetic philosophy

order arises from disorder indeed. complexity comes from simplicity, simplicity comes from complexity.

I already stated:
This sentient Being or Beings who flow along with this Eternal Intelligent Becoming of the Universe cannot be evaluated by belief or theory, because the stagnated minds are not becoming, thus, there is nothing within belief or theory that can evaluate, proven or measure this sentient Being or Beings.




For me the concept of “God” goes along with “Sentient”, it is something that IS, and that is all.



If you have a phobia with the word “god”, then call it “Sentient” or what ever you wish and it is done, no problem for me!

The man is the microcosms of the macrocosms, therefore, if his mind does not reflects this constant intelligent becoming of the universe, then he is not a human, a god or a prophet or anything that qualifies as such, but only an Intellectual Animal!

@loge

a good way to "excape" is to simply claim it is beyond you to understand.

prove it true? no, i can't, it is beyond
prove it false? no, i can't, it is beyond

and thus nothing is ever settled. i would have been interesting to have had you drop into the "what makes a god a god" thread while QS and I were discussing the very notion of a complex system being alive or sentient.

AGAIN!
This sentient Being or Beings who flow along with this Eternal Intelligent Becoming of the Universe cannot be evaluated by belief or theory, because the stagnated minds are not becoming, thus, there is nothing within belief or theory that can evaluate, proven or measure this sentient Being or Beings.

We need to flow in order to become profound.

I do not want to waste my time with stagnant waters of turbid and shallow minds.

Flowing water is clean from discussion and deep in comprehension.

The rain of incomprehension leaves the complex minds that have little profundity as puddles filled with mud, which at the side of the eternal flowing of the intelligence of becoming, get dried under the light of the sun of truth and they become swamps filled with rottenness.

you might want to take a step back from your pond so you see what kind of waters you are really in.

perspective is everything. if you look too closely, you loose the big picture.

OUR minds are too small to god's, he can't understand 2 + 2 when it comes to god's knowledge, for all we know, we might be in a test from god to see what we would really do. we really don't know anything.

Better to dive within the flow of the intelligence of becoming than to fall into a swamp!

Perspective is not everything is just a point of view. And if you look without the mind, the drop becomes the flow of water, it becomes the big picture.

but first you must know what you are diving into else it may destroy you. Be careful in jumping in head-first into untested waters, for hidden dangers may lurk.

Everything involves the mind, for the mind processes everything.

applying the label of god is to stop the flow of water completely. Then there will be stagnation, indeed.

Is the mind and the brain the same thing?

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Loge, I like your original post.Some good points there!

I believe matter does not have a self-governing existence by itself and matter is a perception, it is something "artificial." That is, this perception must have been caused by another power, which means that it must have been created. Moreover, this creation must be continuous. If there were not a continuous and consistent creation, then what we call matter would disappear and be lost. This may be likened to a television screen on which a picture is displayed as long as the signal continues to be broadcast. So, who makes our soul see the stars, the earth, plants, people, our bodies, and all else that we see?

It is very evident that there is a Creator, Who has created the entire material universe, that is, the sum of perceptions, and continues His creation ceaselessly. Since this Creator displays such a magnificent creation, He surely has eternal power and might.

The facts that the universe is not stable, that their presence is only made possible by God’s creating them and that they will disappear when He ends this creation, are all explained in a verse as follows:
It is God Who sustains the heavens and the earth(the universe), lest they cease (to function): and if they should fail, there is none - not one - can sustain them thereafter: Truly, He is Most Forbearing and Oft-Forgiving. (Qur`an Surah Fatir: 41)

Some people imagine Him as a being present somewhere in the heavens and not really intervening in worldly affairs. The basis of this logic actually lies in the thought that the universe is an assembly of matter and God is "outside" this material world, in a faraway place.

But if matter is composed only of sensations. And the only real absolute being is God. That means that only God exists; all things except Him are shadow beings. Consequently, it is impossible to conceive of God as separate and outside this whole mass of matter. For there is actually nothing such as matter in the sense of being. God is surely "everywhere" and encompasses all. This reality is explained in the Qur’an as follows;

To God belong the east and the west: Wherever you turn, there is the face of God. For God is all-pervading, all-knowing. (Qur`an Surat al-Baqarah: 115)

@imam

complex systems can appear to take on a life of their own. if we refine our definition of life, we can say that the universe is alive.

even under a new definition of life, the life of the universe is onto itself. it does not have a creator. it just is.

somehow saying that there MUST be a controlling life force attached to it is to apply an artifical order to a natural order.

nonlinear logic can see how the universe can be a self sustianing system. Applying linear logic to the universe yields ideas such as that of "gods", and is faulty by nature ( linear can not map to non-linear)

Attaching a creator to the universe is to anthropomorphize the universe, to over simplify what the system is.

One could say that creation is a constant and life is creation. Life changes and is created, upon its changing. The universe is alive with creation Not saying that ONE being created, but that we all create. Someone created you, but who created them? Who's creation are you a part of ? Just make sure that what you create is for your own good And yes, I think I have figured out that I'm not very logical
*waves to Loge

Every atom is a trio of Energy, Matter and Intelligence.

A triad of Matter, Energy and Intelligence exist in all the atoms of the universe. Every cell is a triad composed of Matter, Energy and Intelligence that flows with this eternal cosmic becoming.

Each cosmic unit is a truly laboratory where this intelligence incessantly works. The interrelation between planets, suns, moon, comets, etc., the infinite perfection in which these cosmic units work, is showing us to satiation, the existence of certain intelligent coordinates whose root we must search for in the cosmic intelligence.
Wherever there is life, there exists the intelligence. Intelligence is inherent to the universe as humidity is inherent to water.

Every machine is organized according to laws. Every man-made machine has its rudder, its lever from which it is governed and a pilot who controls it and conducts it. Why then should this universe be an exception? The human body is a perfect machine built in the workshop of Nature by the Cosmic Intelligence. This machine has its rudder and lever from which it is governed and conducted.

It is something to admire to perceive the flow of blood through that swift river of the aorta. This artery is truly a mighty and beautiful river. Our intelligence is filled with amazement and mystic beauty when contemplating this Grand River full of the intelligence of life. This grand river ramifies into minor rivers, small arteries and then into small creeks that carry life to all parts, to nourish and give life to millions of small micro-organisms (cells, genes, etc..) All those organisms are a triad of matter, energy and Intelligence. All those intelligences from our infinitely small parts adore us like a God. The smallest creeks of the blood are the capillary vessels. The cells of the diverse tissues and organs are found inside the weft of the capillary networks.

However, some burglar intelligence from the atoms of the air we breath, food we eat, crash against the intelligent level of our microcosms (physical body), these try to ascend and sabotage the harmonious intelligence of our brain but the intelligence of our Sympathetic Nervous System precipitate them into the intestines in order to be excreted through the colon, since they are a danger for the Intelligent level of our miniature universe.

Unfortunately, the mind (through its desires) always retains these burglar intelligences and with its theories and beliefs elaborates psychosomatic sicknesses that interfere with the intelligence of the rudder that is the Sympathetic Nervous System. The pilot that controls this machine is the INNERMOST (The Spirit.) Therefore, the INNERMOST controls by means of the Sympathetic Nervous System lever the whole organism and all the hormonal secretions. The mind does not know how this is performed, because the mind doest not flow with this intelligence, it only discusses about what is unknowable to it.

As above so below, and as below so above, and that is all!

@loge:

the stabalization of a system does not imply an intelligence about it. you are reaching way to far in claiming every atom has intelligence.

fanciful as your thoughts may be, you are over complicating the processes you are observing. The system we call the universe could be considered "alive", but that does not infer any type of living or intelligence to its composite parts.

intellect is in the process, not the parts.

True, the stabilization of your reasoning system does not imply intelligence what so ever.

silly boy!

attacking the messenger is a major logical fault. It displays your true logic structure, and demonstrates the inaccuracies in your own arguement.

so its back to the warm-fuzzy place for you. Enjoy your dreams, for they do not make reality.

I agree with Loge..i believe god is becoming. When moses asked him his name all he said wsa "I AM". i have read where they translated the meaning and he really said " I AM BECOMING". I would tend to agree more with that statement. Why else would the universe exist if it wasnt so that it becomes something. I think the universe evolves just as we do. and since god created our reality and everything in the universe is part of god it would make sense that he's becoming. Nothing is stable. How could it be when our most basic element (the atom) is constantly moving. And I do believe atoms have type of intelligence SCience still hasnt been able to explain what it is that holds atoms together..

the universe is indeed a changing system, that orders itself through fluctuation.

the dyamics of the universe does not in any way impy the existance of a "god" or "gods".

attributing "godliness" to a system is simply mystifying the normal. It is like winning a lottery and claiming it was "gods work". It is to deny the reality in favour of something more fanciful.

the attributing of "god" as always is a way to gloss over what we don't know with a fanciful expanation that has no basis in reality.

if you are to create gods for yourself, this is one of the better ones to create. still, it is just a creation.

You have a point there hyperactive, The existence of the universe doesnt prove there is a god but it also doesnt disprove it. If god didnt create the universe what did. What caused that little particle of matter to explodes into what is now the universe. Something had to have caused our existence and if it wasnt some type of being beyond our comprehension what did?

the dyamics of the universe does not in any way impy the existance of a "god" or "gods".

attributing "godliness" to a system is simply mystifying the normal. It is like winning a lottery and claiming it was "gods work". It is to deny the reality in favour of something more fanciful.


I think there is a difference between winning the lottery (which is simply luck) verse our existence dont ya think. You are saying the universe is
natural and we are overcomplicating things. The universe is natural compared to what. how do you know what the true nature of the universe is . You say it has no basis in reality!!! How do you know... When Sciene can explain all the mysteries of the universe then i will be convinced there is no god Or when science can create life out of
nothing. I think you give science way too much credit. Th
.

we don't know.

the problem with the creator stories is it fails to answer anything because it doesn't say what the source of the creator is.

Silly boy!

Attacking the messenger is to try to awake him up so that he can see his major logical fault; whose problem is that when trying to defend his illogicality he cannot see his own major logical fault

Your illogical responses display the burglar intelligences from your own intellectual structure and demonstrate the accuracy of my own argument.

So, awake from within your warm-fuzzy not intelligent (no-god) dream. Stop being fascinated with your theoretical fancies, for they will never flow with reality.

maybe not in your alternate reality

and yet you can't state it. hmmm.....

fascinate? fantasies? you seem to speak of yourself rather than giving answers.

but wait..... according to you there are no anwers, just implied intelligence at the atomic level

you keep making leaps that are unsound (except in your mind perhaps)

Maybe my intelligence is jumping in your mind !

or perhaps you can now see how even if the universe be deemed a living entity (which i can agree it possibly can be), that that alone does not infer "godliness" to it. No more than I am a "god" of my body.

humm so are we then gods of our own reality??/ it all depends on your definition of a god. I consider what created the universe the Creator. I dont know what it is becuase it far beyond my understanding. You make it seem like what you are saying is its dumb to believe in god simply becuase the universe exist. The same argument could be used against that. It is dumb for you not believe simply becuase he hasnt shown himself to you.

humm so are we then gods of our own reality??/ it all depends on your definition of a god. I consider what created the universe the Creator. I dont know what it is becuase it far beyond my understanding. You make it seem like what you are saying is its dumb to believe in god simply becuase the universe exist. The same argument could be used against that. It is dumb for you not believe simply becuase he hasnt shown himself to you.

humm so are we then gods of our own reality??/ it all depends on your definition of a god. I consider what created the universe the Creator. I dont know what it is becuase it far beyond my understanding. You make it seem like what you are saying is its dumb to believe in god simply becuase the universe exist. The same argument could be used against that. It is dumb for you not believe simply becuase he hasnt shown himself to you.

labelling something as "god" is not being dumb. It is merely applying an order that you agree with to your reality.

it is not so much that loge and i disagree on the functioning of the universe, but on what attributes we assign to said functioning.

for me, it merely is. it stands without a sentient creator. it is a product of physical science, explainable by systems theory.

loge merely wishes to cast godliness onto this existance.

Or perhaps you cannot see that the universe and that living entity are one and the same thing!

That means that what is called God is not a person or an individual, but a multiple perfect omnipresent intelligence!

And your intelligence is just part of it!

maybe it is i see that the universe and that living entities are the same thing, all pieces of a complex system and that the product of the system is the system itself, NOT a god, or godliness at all. The system just is a system. Just because it is greater than us (and consumes us) does not make it a god except to those that cast this construct of godliness onto it.

"god" is but a label we place on things we don't understand. Once we understand, the "god" is put away the same way other such constructs have been put away.

The ""god" is but a label we place on things we don't understand" label is just a way to cram reality into our incipient concepts that have nothing to do with reality, but instead, just a bunch of theory and jargon that the boastful mind likes to hear itself speak about.

Do you not understand that the "no label" is just another label? That your your construct is the " Once we understand, the "god" is put away the same way other such constructs have been put away", and that it is, in fact, automously constructed in such a way as to faciliate the ease to ignore the fact that you have failed to understand what the god label actually is?

According to you, your no-label is but a label you place on things you do not understand.

OK i get what your saying now but its either one of the other. Sounds like you 2 are debating something which neither of you can truly prove. Loge says the universe is part of god, you say there is no god thats its all a system. It could be gods system for all you know.

for me, it merely is. it stands without a sentient creator. it is a product of physical science, explainable by systems theory.

To me i interpret the word theory as guess. So you have your theory about how the universe works and Loge has his. The problem with science is that its always changing also. What you may know today as scientific fact may change tomorrow. So i tend not to believe science as something concrete. Like Loge said everything is constant motion including science.

Loge's guess (theory) is just as good as your scientific theory.


How do you know what Loge's is talking about isnt some sort of Science that we havent discovered yet? If you read up on quantum phsyics it tends to give Loge more credibility then yours. Quantum theory does state that everything is connected in one way or another.

1) and i also say that everything is connected in one way or another (my ideas stem from physics, as wel as other areas) Systems theory describes everything loge is talking about short of sentient=god. His idea is not new. The idea of a sentient universe has been kicking around for quite a few years, and systems theory has given it a scientific basis (for some). This whole topic is old news to me.

2) i don't claim anything to be absolute.

3) of course neither of us can prove it!

4) one or the other? it is actually both or neither. I proposed the idea loge started this thread with in another thread and said even if the system is sentient, it is not a god. It is a matter of semantics. Loge calls a sentient universe "god is a part of everything". I say a sentient universe is a sentient universe. We differ more on the attributes we are applying to the universe than on the nature of the universe.

@stone:

5) as for "no-label" on things i don't understand. incorrect. I have a definition of "god" which i work from and it is not what you imply it is. People do label things as "god" when they explanation is unknown. I merely state it is unknown or uncertian. No need for mystisism in the explanation of existance. (just like there is no need for tooth-fairies once one reaches a certian level of awareness)

I'm curious what is your definition of God hyperactive.

a god:

1 ) a creature of mythology deemed to have special capabilities beyond that of man.
2 ) a construct of man to explain the unknown, and to provide an artificial sense of order to his world.

When, intelligence makes use of the terms God, Heaven and Hell, let it be understood, once and for all, that the meaning is as far removed from that which the profane attach to them as true intelligence is inaccessible to vulgar thought.

God, for the wise, is a universal cosmic intelligence; it is the efficient and ultimate intelligence of intelligences.

God is in the mind of the wise, a simple abstract truth of an archetypical intelligent revelation. The profane cling to mythological religious symbols without grasping the hidden idea within them at all; thus, this is how the symbols have always lost their power in the mind of learned ignoramuses; and this is how religion becomes corrupted by fanaticism, and degenerates into a pseudo-priesthood that ignores the mysteries.

The crime of eating this deadly fruit of ignorance erects stupidity in the minds of those who eat it. The psyche weary of a light that does not understand, takes refuge in the shadows of theories and beliefs and becomes unaware of its emptiness, thus void of the light of intelligence it seems, through its own eyes, to be greater than the universal intelligence itself, and thus hell is created within them in rebellion.

the difference:

my approach empowers man

your approach limits man

Rather:

your approach empowers absurdity

my approach does not admit stupidity!