the other time i was watching a discover show i think was on the history channel, and these two white scientist were somewhere in south america i think bolivia and were searchin for some ruins. So they had the local people take them to some place in some mountain, and when they got there one of them tells the workers to go away and rest. So then theyre all acting tough and smart and talking about their new discovery and i think to myself" thiese guys are a joke". Then they start clearing the place all by them selves to look like explorers or i dont know what.

in conclusion i dont beleave alot of what white scientis say about ancient latin civilizations especially when they describe them as barbaric and make this big deal about them sacrificing people to the gods. To me thats balony, i dont think they sacrifiiced for rain or food or whattever i think thats made up by these white scientist.

The ones on the program might have been white but not all scientists are white.

latin is white

You're quite a racist.

Agreed.

I'd have to agree... Almost every Civilization and religion had sacrifices... animal (including humans) as well as plantlife... And it's not just "The white man keeping the past down!" it's fact through surviving artworks and texts.

me a racist ? nooooo, after my white girlfriend i think i am.

but let me clarify,i dont beleave white scientist(english speaking as a first language) on the subject of brown america,

can u guys get off the technicalities, jesusss.

Is this about afrocentrism ?

Don't worry mate in england we're not allowed to be racist.
Thats why we have more bangladeshi youth clubs than can be counted, but none for white anglo saxon kids

Surely the "white" scientists would be more interested in science and history than in white supremacy.
Alot of ancient civilizations were quite barbaric and not just south american ones,I dont think theres any conspiracy here,just violent ancestors.

We'll lay off the technicalities when there are none left to lay on. In other words: Stop being a racist, its not appreciated.

I think the pictograms and heiroglyphs showing human sacrifce carved right onto thier temples is a good enough reason to believe they had them. No matter what color scientist describes them; they're still there..

i agree that there are civilizations that sacrificed and all, but i dont beleave that the mayan, inca , and even the aztecs sacrificed. Maybe some one did something terrible and he was killed? i just dont beleive they sacrificed, like when they say virgin women were sacrificed or when the mayans played that ball game and the winner was killed for honor, i just dont believe that.

Oh but they did do human sacrifice. It's even in thier recorded legends. Some were captured enemies, some were volunteer.

One of the stories, from the Toltec, is of the little "scaby one" that willingly sacrificed himself so that the light will come to the 7th and final world (ours). He willingly let the gods prepair him and then jumped into the fire to light up the world.

Read thier stories... they're riddled with sacrifices, human and animal. I believe it's the Aztecs that would sacrifice a human to the Jaguar gods, a sort of corrination for thier new emperor...

Caffene, why do you believe there was no sacrifice in the Latin American cultures? Do you have any proof that shows the Mayans, Incas, or Aztecs did not sacrifice, or are you just acting on a hunch? It is difficult to believe that all white, english speaking scientists and historians would fabricate the history of Latin America to further a cause of white supremacy.

well i dont beleive that, can that be taken for 100% truth? who said this? how do they know they reading the stuff right? need proof on that jaguar god.

it just sounds made up to me or like misenterpreted.

*sighs* Such a closed mind. Most of these stories have been carried down and translated by the descendants of these peoples. So these stories are not translated by scientists

When will people study up on what they don't know before comming in here and asking questions, then blowing off the explinations of people who have taken years to study these things.

The Aztecs did infact believe in a Jaguar God.. as they did in a feathered serpent being... As in a God who's animal is a Jaguar...

Tepeyollotl: God of caves and the earth. Believed to create earthquakes and the echo. His animal is the jaguar.


The feathered serpent is the Creator god...

Quetzalcoatl: Creator god and wise legislator. God of the wind, water and fertility. Light skinned and bearded, or represented as a feathered, flying snake.

Now for sacrificing.. since you don't seem so keen as to do research and just whine...
Human Sacrifice in South and Central America...

http://www.carnaval.com/dead/aztecmyth.htm more info...

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs6.htm (not for the ones bugged my blood and cannabalizims)

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050124/aztec.html Discovery channel article...

want more? I can dig up all the information you want... or are you going to keep this up and blow off every piece of evidance because it doesn't suit your already made up mind?

The Mayan 'soccer' game could be compared to the collesium. Prisoners fought against the king in these games, but they were coriographed, staged, and the king and his men always ended up winning - it was intricate propaganda. The stories of the civilizations have been translated from mayan hyroglyphs, as well as through word of mouth from the mayan's decenents.

All in all, caffine, believe what you want. But just because you believe something (or don't) doesn't mean it's the truth (or not).

Stay ignorant if you'd like, or devote your life to it, if you can't believe other people's credible research. They worked hard to make their reputation credible, worked years of their life away for such a cause. They are historians, not white supremicists. In fact, many of the people who study the latin american culture are latin americans themselves.

caffine ... there are too many smilies to make at you and too little time

Like everyone else has already said; do some research; Google ex. "sacrifice", "Aztecs", "native american gods", or even "spanish+conquest". You will find enough reputable sites that have a wealth of information to "prove" sacrifice happened and information on their gods.

If you don't trust the internet go to your local library, and if that is not good enough enroll in a (of many) Latin American (pick a country where sacrifice supposedly happened) history course, so on, so forth, you get the point, right?

Hopefully you find what you are looking for .

i have done some reasearch and i have been to some ruins my self, many of the books and sites are made by white poeple, like the first link cougar provided are white proffesors. those drawings dont look real and if some real ones do look like that it can be a traitor or criminal being offered or whatever. many latin poeple that say all that sacrifice stuff are just saying what has been said already by these so called experts. the spaniards letters, come on so many things can be said to discredit them i aint taking them serious.

Basically they are being portraid as low intellegence animals which mainly come from white "experts" and i dont believe it. how can people be advance in math, astrology, medicine and so much stuff and still behave like how they are being portraid?

i dont buy it, i just take them as theories or misenterpretaion and dont care if they are being viewed as historians, experts or what ever it just dosent add up for me.

Caffene
question ?
do you believe that the olmecs were negroid ?

What has colour of skin got to do with it? Do you mean 'foreign archaeologists'? Do you think, for example, only Mayans should be researching and writing about Mayans?



Well all the 'white' experts I've read have portrayed the Meso-american civilisations as being advanced in astronomy, medicine, maths etc - and none have portrayed them as being 'low intelligence animals'. What rubbish have you been reading?

I could tell you exactly what rubbish he's been reading or you could find out yourself by putting "afrocentrism" into Google
Coffee also having a white girlfriend does not mean you aren't racist. All of your remarks have been aimed at white males.
What about Maria Reich The white german anthrpologist that studied Nazca for four decades ? think she was racist ?

My ancestors were of the Quetchua, also known as the Inca. While they did indeed practice human sacrifice in their society (though nowhere near to the extremes the Maya did), they also eventually advanced beyond that into what we would consider a non-barbaric society, including a road system, and a form of public record-keeping. None of that, however, takes away that, once upon a time, we were a barbaric, slave-keeping people. Denying the past isn't going to do anyone any good. It simply is, no matter what one wishes to say about it. That was the world my people used to live in. Can't be help. Has nothing to do with who discovered that they did; they did it nonetheless.

Question aquatuus
growing up as a member of what was a once might and noble race, did you get much hassle from the roman catholic church ?
what is your peoples view of them thesedays ?

I'm afraid my father left the old country when he married my mother, emigrating to the Land of the Free in the hopes of keeping his son from being forced into military service (different world back then). In as far as my people's views, the Quetchua today are reduced to a handful of struggling villagers who care more about where their next meal is coming from than any harassment from any church. Frankly, they are below the radar; not important enough to be cared for, not loud enough to be heard.

Historically, we were a little better off than some of the other tribes, simply because our political system gave us just enough know-how to avoid being throughly trampled. My own personal family tree had a high standing in the church, and we were landowners and slavekeepers, which counted for a lot back then. It was, ultimately, an economic survival thing. Today, Quetchua children are mostly laughed at for their accents rather than anything else.

anyone rember the statues that represented african faces found in S. america?

You mean the ones that represent American faces



What's interesting about these faces is that people believe they depict negroids because that's what they're told to believe.

Actually, now I look at that picture again..........it's Teal'c from Stargate SG1 !!!!!!

Caffene,

I am sorry but almost ancient civilizaitons have done sacrifices. I have been to the Aztec temple of the sun where they did there sacrifices and they did perform those rituals there. I am not saying they all did it and all temples were used for that purpose but the Sun temple was used for that. It may have been used for other things as well. Now just becuase the Aztecs, Mayans, and other did do sacrifices doesnt make them any more barbaric then the Spanish or anyone else who conquered them. They simply held a different belief system. Most civilizations have had their bad moments in time.

It does like an awful alot like Teal'c.. YOu would have to be nuts to not see the similarity between those heads and negroid features.

I think they look rather aboriginal actually





And notice something else about Australians: they have white beards. Remind you of anyone else from Meso-American legend?

[QUOTE] negroid
sorry guys, dont like the sound of that word
culd u use another word please?
the mystery behind it culd africans had cum to S. america around the time that the statue woz dated?
some think no.

You mean because the statues are depicted with that particular shaped nose they must be negroid.
Here's a better idea
Australia is much closer to the western coast of south america than africa is if you are navigating by sea.
Here's a picture of a native australian aborigine

Now for those of you who want to say "yeah yeah but they couldn't have sailed all the way there" you may want to look up "tierra del fuegan" on google
It will tell you about the race of natives who used to live on the tip of south america.
They were full blooded australian aborigines
So whats likely
That they were negroid cos they had a wide looking nose
Even hearing myself say that it seems like the worst kind of racism.
No one ever talks about the other olmec heads that didn't have those features ?
any one know why ?
Here's a clue "controversy"

btw Roswell Man - no offence intended by use of the 'n' word - it is technically the correct term

Btw essan
what does "user posted image mean"
when you've worked that one out look up the term "plagiarist"
Gimme that gold star now
I wants it
its my precious

for the rest of you go look at this
http://www.alternativearchaeology.org/phor...ead.php?19,1597
any of those posters names seem familiar ?

the links do portrait them as animals, canibals? and killing their babies. WHen i read from white scientists and others(happy?) they read like they were trying to down play the civilizations. So what if your a decendant of the incas(which i doubt) all you know is of what you have read, you werent there.

the reason i put white scientist is because when i hear and read of what they say it sounds like they are trying to make them look horrible. i mean this has been done before. So it dosent cut it for me, i think it was the opposite specially with the mayas and incas, i think they were way ahead of their time and didnt sacrifice to gods. and killings or stacks of bone are just taken as face value and are being misinterpreted. The aztecs i do think were a little different but to say they sacrificed every morining so that the sun could rise? come on!.maybe when they killed some one in public was to give a message, it could of been an enemy or a criminal, so many things.

and i am not racist although i dont trust white people too much i know that theres some good white people out there.

And if we took out the word "white" and replaced it with say "Black" or "Chinese" or "Asian" do you think that would not have racist connotations?

Please think very carefully about how you post in future.

It sounds an awful lot like you think that what these people are saying is nothing more than idle speculation they thought up while hanging around the water cooler. You do no justice to the field of archeology and anthropology. Do you honestly believe anyone would pay these professionals to go out and simply make stuff up? Do you understand why they came to the conclusions they did, or are you simply annoyed that you don't like their conclusions and have therefore decided they have no value, despite the evidence they have supporting them?

Don't mistake research for speculation. I do not need to be there to know what happened, for the very simple reason that my people, and most of the others living in this region, kept records on their activities and reasons for doing things, including human sacrifice. Even if I hadn't read about my people's history in school, I have still read enough archeological studies, all carefully considered valid and credible, that teaches me about what my people did. Their remains paint as much a story as their records do. I personally do consider what they did barbaric, but then barbarism doesn't necesarily equate to horrible, with the moral connatations involved. They considered human sacrifice essential to survival; I disagree, but at least I can say that I understand why they believed that. I do not think that you would, however, be able to explain why anthropologists have come to that conclusion.

aight i will try,

You might also want to consider that they didn't view sacrifice as a horror.
Being sacrificed was a sure way of elevating yourself to a position by Gods right hand.
Not understand that.
Try and imagine winning a billion dollars on the lottery.
You'd feel that kind of elation at the prospect, and lets face it as ends go having your heart cut out is pretty quick.
I can imagine fates far worse.
If i was given a choice of being sacrificed by a mad priest with a knife for the good of the people or dying by inches from a debilitating illness over a course of years I'd be the first one jumping onto the slab with my shirt off.
I have quite a bit more experience of this kind of sacrifice than i like to let on but hey all you need to know is that it was considered a very honourable way to go.
Criminals were just executed. They didn't deserve such an honour.
And if you think about it sacrificing yourself for the good of your community is something that happens everyday
Instead of sacrifices of course these days we call them soldiers.
Is getting blown up by a car bomb any worse ?
I just think you're a little squeamish, and maybe a little racist. But theres still hope if you can admit you were wrong about the white folks bringing down the mesoamericans
Now had you said "catholics" i would have backed you 100%

I don't think white people are trying to misalign the ancient south american peoples. I think every race and civilization has blood on their hands when it comes to human sacrifice. Think white people have never sacrificed other humans for religion? What about the bog people of Northern Europe or the sacrifices made by ancient greek and romans? Even the bible one of the so called cornerstones of "western civilization" has incidents or references of human sacrifice. All academics and historians (irregardless of their race) try to ascertain what really happened. The truth no matter how ugly.

Lol what about recent history ?
Hitler and Stalin ring any bells
How about pol pot
how about idi amin, or shouldn't i mention him because hes a gentleman of colour, admittedly gentleman is stretching it a bit.
Not familiar with their works ??
Try Osama Bin laden or saddam hussein
Two very famous caucasoid guys that kill people in a very humane fashion. NOT

that "i will try" reply was for thristle.

AQUATICUS- you said that they considered sacrifice essential for survival, why do you think that? THAt is a big part that i dont beleive and i think its a lie, these people been knowing the earth was round so how could they think a sacrifice was going to save them?

"Do you honestly believe anyone would pay these professionals to go out and simply make stuff up?

yes i do so that the impact of having them gone is less or so that they are not taking extra serious, or they couldnt figure stuf up so they made it up or they didnt like them....i just dont think the story we are being told is true and im not on some conspiracy bull, its just that sacrificial,barbaric, killers god worshiping fanatics story dosent cut it for me.

THE THING THAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT THE IMAGE WE HAVE OF THEM IS NOT ACCURATE, im not saying that they didnt kill or that they were saints,im just saying they were more peacefull and smarter than what we think.

MARDUK-"And if you think about it sacrificing yourself for the good of your community is something that happens everyday
Instead of sacrifices of course these days we call them soldiers".

that anology dosent fit man, soldiers or mardyrs die for their people, yes. but the ancients sacrificed themselves to gods for a new day? rain? food ?...it dosent add up, its not like they were clueless about nature and how things work, if anything they knew exactly how things work, get me?

oh, and i am not racist but i do see white people a little different than every one else because of you know, the mest up history thing, but thats not why i think what i think it just dosent add up for me.

It was a religious belief. Many religious beliefs are still around, even though we know the earth is round...



And We're saying your statement has no credibility.



They may now that they plant seeds to grow plants and crops and such, but they may also believe that the gods permit them to grow and the gods need feeding as well, or simply something sacrificed in their honour lest they get mad.



Yes, you are racist. Many racists dont see it themselves. Hell, Hitler himself didnt view himself as antisemite when he was young and mildley so.

--It was a religious belief. Many religious beliefs are still around, even though we know the earth is round...

well i dont think u understand or know about their "religious belief" so there.



--And We're saying your statement has no credibility.

and neither do yours, that oh because scientist say so crap dont cut it and i gave pretty good reasons why.



--They may now that they plant seeds to grow plants and crops and such, but they may also believe that the gods permit them to grow and the gods need feeding as well, or simply something sacrificed in their honour lest they get mad.

there u go underestemating them like the "experts"

--Yes, you are racist. Many racists dont see it themselves. Hell, Hitler himself didnt view himself as antisemite when he was young and mildley so.

fine if you say so, i just dont take history for granted and am a little pist, i guess most minorities are racist then.

Just talking "ancient" history. Finding barbaric behaviour in the 20th century is unfortunately waaaaay to easy, for all of the races.

Very astute of you Rye guy, all cultures and races have been responsible for some horrendous atrocities. In Austarlia we are taught openly about the nasty treatments the European settlers inflicted on the Aboriginal people, certainly Australia was sent not only criminals but the outcasts of millitary societies which consisted of many brutual individuals.
Ghangis Khan was a little darker skinned but I seriously doubt that was the reason behind his murerous escapdes. Hitler was white but I believe this had no effect on his ignorant hatred. And Polpot was asian but of course this was not the source of his nutter ideals.

This thread has got at least one moderator circling. And if I close it, it will have nothing to do with me being black, white or sky blue pink with purple polka dots.

Austarlia ?
Ghangis ?
I think the intellectual content of this thread is a little down,
I wouldn't mind a bit if it was closed.
Leaving it up does this site a diservice
No matter what colour of the rainbow we are.

I believe I quite do.



Ours do. Theres legends of it and illustrations of it.



Im not underestimating them. I'm actually saying they had quite a bit of knowledge for their time period. Assuming that the Big Bang caused the universe, we still dont know 100% if there was a god responsible for it. Am I underestimating ourselves?