Caffene: your hypothesis seems to be that:-

Archaeological and Anthropological investigations in Central/South America has generally been carried out by people who are not descended from the indigenous tribes.

Therefore they invent 'facts' in order to make the ancestors of the indigenous tribes look less civilised then they really were.

If that's so, may I ask why you think they do this? Wwhether it means that, for example, we shouldn't trust anything non-Europeans say about ancient peoples of Europe? And, most important of all whether you have the slightest shred of evidence for your silly little notions?

Your accusations (quite apart from the racist undertone) are little more than libel........

For starters, what makes you think the indigenous population had any idea the Earth was round? More to the point, what difference would it have made what shape they thought the Earth was?

Sacrifice of animals and food was a regular aspect of Inca life. It was done, like all sacrifices throughout the world, to keep the gods happy, so that good fortune would continue to bless the people in a region were good fortune came and went with a fickle nature. Human sacrifice was for special occasions, including natural disasters and special holidays designed for the specific purpose of encouraging youth and health among the population. This is a common global belief referred to as sympathetic magic, in which one attempts to transfer the qualities of one particular object, say a young sacrifice, to others, such as the population. The typical sacrifice was a young girl (although young boys have also been found), many of which were selected throughout the kingdom, and raised in one of the temples, the most well-known one being in the city of Macchu Picchu. Many records of the daily lives of these young girls, some of whom became concubines, others sacrifices, and others temple keepers, were kept, in order to ensure that the sacrifice was a proper one.

The sacrifice itself was a festive affair, with the young girl honored in every way possible, leading up to the sacrifice, at which time she was drugged and buried, thus marking her ascension to goddess. She was buried in rich clothes, with plenty of gifts, as befitted her new status, and by all accounts was just as happy about it as the population was.

Ultimately, it really isn't all that different from many other sacrifice rituals around the world.



What impact? Who would care? Americans rounded up hundreds of thousands of American-Japanese citizens in concentration camps, and it is just a blurb in the history books. Americans killed entire societies of Native Americans, and we sooth our soul by crying during "Dances with Wolves". Humanity simply isn't all that good at holding a grudge for a people they were not a part of. It simply isn't worth spending money on. No one cares enough.



And, like I said before, no one is calling all ancient societies that practiced human sacrifice either barbaric or killers or fanatics. Some were, some were not, but only laymen generalize all into one. Frankly, you seem to be putting words into the mouths of researchers. Do you have any examples in which a credible researcher described a society unfairly, without supporting evidence for his claims?



If it quacks like a duck, etc... You may not think you are a racist, but you are certainly giving the impression of being one. If you truly are not, then at the very least you should realize that many of the people responding to you are under the impression that you are, in principle if not in action. If you do not wish for this to be the case, I strongly encourage you to re-start from the beginning, making your stance very clear, and apologizing for any offense you may have given. A little humility goes a long way.

congratulations aquatuus
thats probably the best response to a post i've ever read
anywhere
give yourself a pat on the back

wise head on those shulders.

see those incas aren't savages after all.
how could those scientists have been so wrong

We must not have paid them enough.

If you will excuse me, I must go sacrifice a cheeseburger to my youth and longevity.

I'd say African-Americans in these days are more racist than whites (In America)

Its always okay for Black people to make fun of white ppl 24/7 but the minute white people say one thing... everyone goes crazy.

This has nothing to do with the topic really... but i dont care.

stellar.

--I believe I quite do.

well you dont

--Ours do. Theres legends of it and illustrations of it.

legends , illustrations are misenterpreted.

--Im not underestimating them. I'm actually saying they had quite a bit of knowledge for their time period. Assuming that the Big Bang caused the universe, we still dont know 100% if there was a god responsible for it. Am I underestimating ourselves?

your point? i agree that we are not 100% sure of the big bang or the ancients.

aquaticus.


--For starters, what makes you think the indigenous population had any idea the Earth was round? More to the point, what difference would it have made what shape they thought the Earth was?

do more research then, it is obvious they knew it was round, i mean they had preatty accurate calendars. i said that as an example of their knowledge and that they werent just tribes men they were advance CIVILIZATIONS, and were wiser than we think,look at their accomplishents man. u didnt get?

--Sacrifice of animals and food was a regular aspect of Inca life. It was done, like all sacrifices throughout the world, to keep the gods happy, so that good fortune would continue to bless the people in a region were good fortune came and went with a fickle nature. Human sacrifice was for special occasions, including natural disasters and special holidays designed for the specific purpose of encouraging youth and health among the population. This is a common global belief referred to as sympathetic magic, in which one attempts to transfer the qualities of one particular object, say a young sacrifice, to others, such as the population. The typical sacrifice was a young girl (although young boys have also been found), many of which were selected throughout the kingdom, and raised in one of the temples, the most well-known one being in the city of Macchu Picchu. Many records of the daily lives of these young girls, some of whom became concubines, others sacrifices, and others temple keepers, were kept, in order to ensure that the sacrifice was a proper one.

hah, u sound like if you were there and saw it all. read ur reply again man, it sounds made up. natural disasters, ecouraging youth,sympathic magic, hahah give me a break.

--The sacrifice itself was a festive affair, with the young girl honored in every way possible, leading up to the sacrifice, at which time she was drugged and buried, thus marking her ascension to goddess. She was buried in rich clothes, with plenty of gifts, as befitted her new status, and by all accounts was just as happy about it as the population was.

sure buddy, did they sing songs too? how did they fix her hair, hahaha

--Ultimately, it really isn't all that different from many other sacrifice rituals around the world.

i mean every ones the same,so how could it be. THATS CRAP MAN U BUY THAT STUFF? HAHA


---What impact? Who would care? Americans rounded up hundreds of thousands of American-Japanese citizens in concentration camps, and it is just a blurb in the history books. Americans killed entire societies of Native Americans, and we sooth our soul by crying during "Dances with Wolves". Humanity simply isn't all that good at holding a grudge for a people they were not a part of. It simply isn't worth spending money on. No one cares enough.

fine, u conform and be sheeped, me on the other hand am like the opposite of you, and dont let it fly by and say oh well, its history who cares. holding a grudge? haha u dont know me.


---And, like I said before, no one is calling all ancient societies that practiced human sacrifice either barbaric or killers or fanatics. Some were, some were not, but only laymen generalize all into one. Frankly, you seem to be putting words into the mouths of researchers. Do you have any examples in which a credible researcher described a society unfairly, without supporting evidence for his claims?

i agree some were and some were not, and like i said before i beleive the image that we have of them is ignorant. i think it was less barbaric than we think, one reason that push me to believe this is by looking at their knwledge,accomplishments, their advance technologies, creations, civilizations etc, i think that they were past the premitive belief of sacrificing for things that they understood very well like rain,stars,sun earth etc



---If it quacks like a duck, etc... You may not think you are a racist, but you are certainly giving the impression of being one. If you truly are not, then at the very least you should realize that many of the people responding to you are under the impression that you are, in principle if not in action. If you do not wish for this to be the case, I strongly encourage you to re-start from the beginning, making your stance very clear, and apologizing for any offense you may have given. A little humility goes a long way.

i dont care and i am not apologizing for anything, if you think im racist fine i dont care, i mean hello white people is the most hated race on earth and thats real.

im bout to go play ball with my white freind.

On what basis do you make that assumption?



On what basis do you make that assumption?



My point is that even with todays knowledge people attribute god to various things.



I stand corrected... youre definitly not racist

10/10 for the use of subtle sarcasm, you'll go a long way in message forums in the future

So Caffene, what are you? A Quenchya? Maya? Mixtec? Come on, pray tell us how you know more about the history of these peoples than those who study them?

Oh, and what, out of interest, is your definition of 'white man'? European? Caucasoid? Non-negroid? Someone wiith a higher IQ than you? Someone who can read?

btw Caffene 'Latin America' is a modern, white European term. By using it in the title to this thread you have yourself shown disrespect to the earlier native civilisations that once prospered there

sum nice pics to cool sum ppl down a bit.

a wise man once said

"I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become reality. I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word."

he also said

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

as well as

"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true."

and also

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

You're a fool caffene
you may have heard these words before but you just didn't listen
Did ya

roswell who's the guy in the picture ?

Looking at those pictures reminds me: did the Meso-americans have lawnmowers? Only those temples look so much more attractive when surrounded by nicely mown grass

I'm afraid I didn't get. Like I said, what difference would it have made what shape they thought the Earth was? Incidentally, the Inca believed the world was a large disk, created by Pachacamac, and hung between the sun and the moon. Later on, it was changed to include one of Pachacamac's brothers falling off of it and becoming a stone in mid-flight. Creation legends from Peru vary depending on the era they came from.

No one is saying that the Inca were not very advanced in the fields of both mathematics and engineering, to say nothing of astronomy, heck their very buldings provide more than ample truth of that. There is nothing to indicate, however, that they were able to calculate that the Earth was curved. It's possible they lacked the ability, however it is far more likely that it simply never occured to them to do so.



I have read the accounts of those who were there. Several of them. You truly think it sounds made up? I think the same when people speak to me of Atlantis and of "Noble Savages". Whether or not you choose to believe, however, is fairly irrelevant. There are documents, stories, and corroboration from multiple sources, both Spaniard and Native, there are written records, and there are many examples of artwork, all of which have been evalutated by many different people who have studied the field extensively, and the general concensus is that part of the social structure of these tribes included human sacrifice, and that it was an honorable way to go. You do not wish to believe, then that is certainly your perogative, however, do not think that using the argument "hahah give me a break." is going to make you sound credible. Your ideas are interesting, however, unless you can support them with the data available, they lack credibility, and cannot, ultimately, even be considered speculation..



Yes, they had many songs to sing, rivaling the song libraries of the Gregorian Order. In the Inca calender, every day was dedicated to a God or holiday, and each had their own personal theme song. The hair of the sacrifice was usually plaited, however that was mostly to provide support for the ornate decorations placed on her head. How do we know this? Well, apart from the description and records, we have also unearthed several of the bodies.



Yes, I do buy that, for the very simple reason that I do not find humans, on the whole, to be immensily complex creatures. Certain aspects are simply part of the human psyche and are repeately shown to accur globally, regardless of social, environmental, or spiritual factors. All over the world, a smile is a smile, the young ones rebel from the older ones, and people fear the spectre, the monster, the stranger. And yes, all over the world, human sacrifice tends to follow the same program, and is rarely (I cannot think of any examples of it) considered anything other than an honor to the victim.



Like I said, humans are not incredibly complex. If forced to guess, I would
say that you are nearing or in your early teens, you have just entered your formative years (meaning that you have finally realized there is more to the world than your little bubble), and you are desperately searching for something to believe in so that you may better fit into this new expanded universe. Unfortunately, you do not know enough about proper research methodology or even basic questioning to confirm the validity of what you find, so instead you choose something you think sounds great, such as afrocentrism, read what little you can find about it, and firmly place all your blind faith into following it (it is blind faith, because you believe it for the sole sake of believe; it would be regular, and admirable, faith, if you understood and were able to describe it, but you cannot do that, so you must follow blindly, like a sheep, instead of researching it and questioning it).

You are also regularly angry with people you should not be angry at, and you both know this and can't help it, which makes you angrier. The answer is, quite simply, chemical, and I will expand on that if you wish, however, the effect is that you are currently rebelling against your elders, are under the impression that you have discovered things that your teachers either do not know or are actively engaged in supressing, and that your uniqueness hinges vitaly on this theory of yours being true.

In short, you are like every single other adolescent in the world making their entry into adulthood. But I digress.



But who is saying they were ignorant? Who is suppressing their accomplishments? I am fairly well versed and an avid reader of scientific journals, including archeological and antrhopological ones, and I do not gather that impression at all.



You can play ball with them, and date them, but if, behind their back, you consider nothing more than a seperate people whom belong to the most hated race on Earth, don't think you are considering them equals.

this was hilarious, one thing i laugh at is when white people try and explain racism to me like we(non whites) are experts in it. hahaha

i liked malcom X better.

ill reply to the rest of you later,

Edit; removed redundant quote.

suit yourself but now you sound racist and hypocritical,
you need to de stress a little man.
chill out
I'm sure there's white folks out here that love you
I know I do
hehehe

I thought it was the loser killed for losing.
Anyway, of course 20,000 people did something wrong and had to be executed over a period of days. I'm not saying that latin Americans are barbaric or aything, bt if you believe that your god needs human hearts to keep it going so the world won't end in perpetual night, of course you'd kill a lot of people. And a fair feqw of those people were probably glad to get killed.
you're not rascist, you're just prejudiced.

In order to divert any misunderstanding, the verbage in the topic heading is mine, not caffene's. I edited his original topic heading because it was vulgar and inappropriate, don't equate any perceived disrespect to 'earlier civilizations' to him. I chose the phrase not out of disrespect but because, well, I'm a modern white European.

Once again its requested that everyone refrain from making derogatory and/or belittling comments towards other members, lets endeavor to keep the discussion relatively civil and the arguements focused on the validity or non-validity of historical findings.

MM

Oh, that's fine then MM - not that Caffene seems to be taking much notice of my comments anyway

I'm still puzzelled over what he means by 'white person'......

good call

Caffene you need a new outlook on life you should move to my town, Yellowknife. It is unique in that many cultures are represented here and all of them work side by side without prejudice and fear. You see people are more afraid of nature up here because it an kill you quick. They don't have time to worry about the color of someone's skin when they are stuck out over the ice road they just help. But barring that I think you should just get over your racism issue's. do you really think white people are the only racists in the world. Every culture is prejudiced against some other culture in some way no one is special when it comes to that ugliness but i tell you what. Moping about the past and letting it define your thoughts and how people think of you is self destructive. Get over it because you are not providing a solution just a addition to the problem. All the people you have a gripe against are long dead so quit beating this dead dog.

stixxman-
haha im from LOS ANGELES kid how you going to try and tell me?hah

LA where there are cool ass white people and them racist ones. im laughing at this because im viewed as this racist ass dude, please you guys dont know what racism is.

but anyways back to the topic,

aquaticus..

my point was that they werent ignorant, and the earth thing we just cant be too sure of what they thought, i mean you keep refering to legends.

---I have read the accounts of those who were there. Several of them. You truly think it sounds made up? I think the same when people speak to me of Atlantis and of "Noble Savages". Whether or not you choose to believe, however, is fairly irrelevant. There are documents, stories, and corroboration from multiple sources, both Spaniard and Native, there are written records, and there are many examples of artwork, all of which have been evalutated by many different people who have studied the field extensively, and the general concensus is that part of the social structure of these tribes included human sacrifice, and that it was an honorable way to go. You do not wish to believe, then that is certainly your perogative, however, do not think that using the argument "hahah give me a break." is going to make you sound credible. Your ideas are interesting, however, unless you can support them with the data available, they lack credibility, and cannot, ultimately, even be considered speculation..

cool, i guess im just going to have to learn ancient and read that stuff my self, im preatty busy with my life right now but i am going to try and dig this idea of mine a little more because i truly beleive the image we have of the aztecs,incas and especially the mayan are not accurate. Like i said before i think they were more peaceful and wiser than we think today.

---Yes, they had many songs to sing, rivaling the song libraries of the Gregorian Order. In the Inca calender, every day was dedicated to a God or holiday, and each had their own personal theme song. The hair of the sacrifice was usually plaited, however that was mostly to provide support for the ornate decorations placed on her head. How do we know this? Well, apart from the description and records, we have also unearthed several of the bodies.

again i think this is misenterpreted or made up, maybe they died naturally and were laid to rest honorably, i think theres more to this and you have only scratched the surface.

---Yes, I do buy that, for the very simple reason that I do not find humans, on the whole, to be immensily complex creatures. Certain aspects are simply part of the human psyche and are repeately shown to accur globally, regardless of social, environmental, or spiritual factors. All over the world, a smile is a smile, the young ones rebel from the older ones, and people fear the spectre, the monster, the stranger. And yes, all over the world, human sacrifice tends to follow the same program, and is rarely (I cannot think of any examples of it) considered anything other than an honor to the victim.

you dont know what you are talking about, ur statement might be true if you were talking about people from europe as a whole or africa etc. you cant say that about every one,you just dont know, i mean the american ancients were far away from the old world. so ur statement is irelevant.

---Like I said, humans are not incredibly complex. If forced to guess, I would
say that you are nearing or in your early teens, you have just entered your formative years (meaning that you have finally realized there is more to the world than your little bubble), and you are desperately searching for something to believe in so that you may better fit into this new expanded universe. Unfortunately, you do not know enough about proper research methodology or even basic questioning to confirm the validity of what you find, so instead you choose something you think sounds great, such as afrocentrism, read what little you can find about it, and firmly place all your blind faith into following it (it is blind faith, because you believe it for the sole sake of believe; it would be regular, and admirable, faith, if you understood and were able to describe it, but you cannot do that, so you must follow blindly, like a sheep, instead of researching it and questioning it).

nice try on trying to make me feel dumb,hah, but you fail because im very secure about my self and this topic is just a small idea that poped into my head and am following at my own pace, you on the other hand think your smart but arent, your the one that sounds gullable not me if anything you have your head in a bubble.

---You are also regularly angry with people you should not be angry at, and you both know this and can't help it, which makes you angrier. The answer is, quite simply, chemical, and I will expand on that if you wish, however, the effect is that you are currently rebelling against your elders, are under the impression that you have discovered things that your teachers either do not know or are actively engaged in supressing, and that your uniqueness hinges vitaly on this theory of yours being true.

again you dont know what you are talking about, when im angry i know why i am angry and know how to deal with it, besides a little bit of anger and rebellion is healthy you should think about that, so quit your psycho-analysis because you fail miserably, you should analize your self buddy.

---But who is saying they were ignorant? Who is suppressing their accomplishments? I am fairly well versed and an avid reader of scientific journals, including archeological and antrhopological ones, and I do not gather that impression at all.

well you should analize a bit more and question and not just read something and go "oh so thats whats going on", tell me something do you buy all those dramatizations they show on the discovery/history channels? good you shouldnt take every thing 100% as it is shown immediatly.

---You can play ball with them, and date them, but if, behind their back, you consider nothing more than a seperate people whom belong to the most hated race on Earth, don't think you are considering them equals.

no, i think of them ass cool white people, and wack white people. i date and chill with cool white people, they understand this perfectly why cant you. reality my friend reality. Ever met a white person who thinks white people in general suck? i have.

Well, you did say you were going to do research, so I'll let you decide how deep it goes.



Actually, I'm referring to my statement as true in regards to humanity in general, which is why I verys specifically said that these things happen despite social, environmental, etc, etc. I say that about humankind in general, and through the ages. Overall, people have always had certain things that they have had in common, despite where and when on Earth they were. Ultimately, we are all the same biological machine, with only a few decorative changes.



Okay, I'll explain it again. This isn't about how secure you are in yourself, nor is it an attack on you. It is an example of how identical people are all over the world. In the same way that I described you fairly accurately, I can also state with confidence that there are millions of others just like you all over the world.

In other words, I'm not calling you dumb. I used you as an example, not as a specific person.



I do know what I'm talking about in this regard, that being the psychology of adolescents. Asides from the few courses I took in college, what has helped me more than anything has been my time in the military, both training cadets and dealing with the new recruits just coming in. I have extensive experience with young men first entering adulthood, and am acutely aware of how they think.

Again, this is not about you as a person. This is about you as an adolescent. And the point of it is to show how universal human thought and behavior is.



I can't say that I have ever considered television to be a reliable source of anything. Scientific journals, on the other hand, generally are. Of course, all that a scientific journal can guarantee is that a peer review of the work was done and the work was found to be both logical and credible, not necessarily that it was correct, nor that it was not a hoax (although the chances are much lower than with other media sources). If you are willing to research and analyze, you most definitely need to become familiar with scientific journals, as they will be a major source for information for you. Not only will they give you the overview of the research being done, but they also source the information, so that you can research it on your own and verify it for yourself.



Of course you have. It is currently very much in vogue for white people to hate themselves. A few years back, it was considered pretty cool, if you were an American, to look down upon American culture and accomplishments. Apologists exist everywhere.

Yes, I do understand that you hang out with cool, wack, groovy, or whatever the current hip word is, people. I also understand that you rarely even think of their race or nationality. Where you have gone wrong is in your actions on this thread. The way in which you have spoken, the things which you have said, have created this impression of you. That is another aspect of reality. Actions speak louder than words. I sincerely doubt you are prejudice or racists, however that is the impression that you have given on this board. The only reason people have not reacted in anger is because you sound quite young, and are quite likely guilty of nothing more than a faux pas, and are being hindered by a prideful spirit that refuses to admit having done anything wrong. That goes back into the "people aren't that hard to figure out" thing before.