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ForRizzle
user posted image

Engraving of Pope Joan from an 18th Century polemic, "A Present for a Papist." Note the infant at her feet.
John Anglicus was a ninth century Englishman. He travelled to Athens where he gained a reputation for his knowledge of the sciences. Eventually he came to lecture at the Trivium in Rome where his fame grew even larger. He became a Cardinal, and when Pope Leo IV died in 853 A.D., he was unanimously elected pope.

As Pope John VIII he ruled for two years, until 855 A.D. However, while riding one day from St. Peter's to the Lateran, he had to stop by the side of the road and, to the astonishment of everyone, gave birth to a child. It turned out that Pope John VIII was really a woman. In other words, Pope John was really Pope Joan.

According to legend, upon discovering the Pope's true gender, the people of Rome tied her feet together and dragged her behind a horse while stoning her, until she died. Another legend has it that she was sent to a faraway convent to repent her sins and that the child she bore grew up to become the Bishop of Ostia.

It is not known whether the story of Pope Joan is true. The first known reference to her occurs in the thirteenth century, 350 years after her supposed reign. Around this time her image also began to appear as the High Priestess card in the Tarot deck.

The Catholic Church at first seemed to accept the reality of Pope Joan. Marginal notes in a fifteenth century document refer to a statue called "The Woman Pope with Her Child" that was supposedly erected near the Lateran. There was also a rumor that for some years the chairs used during papal consecrations had holes in their seats, so that an official check of the pope's gender could be performed.

During the Reformation in the sixteenth century, the Catholic Church began to deny the existence of Pope Joan. However, at the same time, Protestant writers insisted on her reality, primarily because the existence of a female pope was a convenient piece of anti-Catholic propaganda.

Modern scholars have been unable to resolve the historicity of Pope Joan.


References/Further Reading:
Wood, Clement. The Woman Who Was Pope: A Biography of Pope Joan, 853-855 A.D., 1931.
Olsen, Chris. Pope Joan: A Riddle of the Dark Ages, 1960.
Stanford, Peter. Pope Joan: In Search of the Truth. Henry Holt & Co. 1999.
Donna Cross. Pope Joan. Crown. 1996.


LoVer_Of_GoD
i dont think it is true... because, and i know im gonna get some bad feedback, in the bible it states that a woman should not rule over a man, 1 Timothy 2:12 i believe... and it says that a woman should not rule over a man, but be in silence.... so i doubt that there was a female pope
zandore
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD Posted Today @ 11:13 AM )
i know im gonna get some bad feedback
Yes you are right. Are you going to use a book that is 2,000 years old tell you how to treat your GF? Your wife? your kids? Or are you going to use your heart? hmm.gif
JMPD1
why not look into it before you make a blanket statement like that LoG.

EDIT:

ForRizzle happens to be stating a reputed historical episode.



I typed the post and sent it before I fully engaged the clutch. Sorry for the false start.
LoVer_Of_GoD
NO NO NO NO... that is in regards to church.. that is all.. not at the home.. not anywhere else.. it means that no woman is to teach over a man IN CHURCH, now, at home that is usually a different story, wife says jump husband says how high and where to...wink2.gif
LoVer_Of_GoD
okey dokey, doin it right now..
LoVer_Of_GoD
here ya go

1 Timothy 2

12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet
JMPD1
I meant, look into the Pope Joan issue. I'm sure that if you 'google' it, you will come up with something.

As to your bible quote, I'll stand on a 'no comment'.
LoVer_Of_GoD
well, u asked for me to look it up... ill look up pope joan.
lightbeyondthedark
QUOTE(zandore @ Apr 19 2005, 09:16 AM)
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD Posted Today @  11:13 AM )
i know im gonna get some bad feedback
Yes you are right. Are you going to use a book that is 2,000 years old tell you how to treat your GF? Your wife? your kids? Or are you going to use your heart? hmm.gif
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The bible says to honor your wife... wink2.gif

LBD
LoVer_Of_GoD
right. LBD... i was saying that in terms of Church and teaching spirituality
JMPD1
Ah, but in the bible, if it is writ, it >>must be true<<, no?

So I hope that you are all keeping those little women in line there fellas.


NOTE: The preceeding message was chock full of sarcasm, for those who are sarcasm-intolerant.
QueenoftheNight
Thats pisses me off. Women can rule over man in the church or elsewhere. Tis is why I hate how people follow a old story book on how to live their lifes of control things.
LoVer_Of_GoD
if u dont like the "story book" why are u going to church?
QueenoftheNight
I don't. But I am still a women, and I get mad when other women don't have the same rights as men. I could care less about church, but its womens rights that really hit my soft spot
LoVer_Of_GoD
they have rights... they just arent supposed to be preachers... they can do other stuff.. i have a woman teacher in my sunday school and youth group classes, but there has to be a man in there...
QueenoftheNight
why the hell does there "have" to be a man in there?
LoVer_Of_GoD
probably because we are 17 and 18 year old boys and the woman is only like 23
JMPD1
So if the class were 17 or 18 year old females and the teacher was a 23 year old male it would be perfectly acceptable???


I guess your church is still pinning the blame for the worlds problems on women, huh?
SilverCougar
Now.. he didn't really say that... It looks like it.. but he didn't say that
JMPD1
yep. he did.

Or did you mean me?
SilverCougar
Did he say that his church pinned the worlds problems on woman?
ForRizzle
user posted image

Pope Joan is one of the most fascinating, extraordinary characters in Western history -- and one of the least well known. Most people have never heard of Joan the Pope, and those who have regard her story as legend.

Yet for hundreds of years -- up to the middle of the seventeenth century -- Joan’s papacy was universally known and accepted as truth. In the seventeenth century, the Catholic Church, under increasing attack from rising Protestantism, began a concerted effort to destroy the embarrassing historical records on Joan. Hundreds of manuscripts and books were seized by the Vatican. Joan’s virtual disappearance from modern consciousness attests to the effectiveness of these measures.

Today the Catholic Church offers two principal arguments against Joan’s papacy: the absence of any reference to her in contemporary documents, and the lack of a sufficient period of time for her papacy to have taken place between the end of the reign of her predecessor, Leo IV, and the beginning of the reign of her successor, Benedict III.

These arguments are not, however, conclusive. It is scarcely surprising that Joan does not appear in contemporary records, given the time and energy the Church has, by its own admission, devoted to expunging her from them. The fact that she lived in the ninth century, the darkest of the dark ages, would have made the job of obliterating her papacy easy. The ninth century was a time of widespread illiteracy, marked by an extraordinary dearth of record keeping. Today, scholarly research into the period relies on scattered, incomplete, contradictory, and unreliable documents. There are no court records, land surveys, farming accounts, or diaries of daily life. Except for one questionable history, the Liber pontificalis (which scholars have called a "propagandist document"), there is no continuous record of the ninth-century Popes -- who they were, when the reigned, what they did. Apart from the Liber pontificalis, scarcely a mention can be found of Joan’s successor, Pope Benedict III -- and he was not the target of an extermination campaign.

Joan’s absence from contemporary church records is only to be expected. The Roman clergymen of the day, appalled by the great deception visited upon them, would have gone to great lengths to bury all written reports of the embarrassing episode. Indeed, they would have felt it their duty to do so. Even the great theologian Alcuin was not above tampering with the truth; in one of his letters he admits destroying a report on Pope Leo III’s adultery and simony.

One need only look to the recent examples of Nicaragua and El Salvador to see how a determined and well-coordinated state effort can make embarrassing evidence "disappear." It is only after the distancing effect of time that truth, kept alive by unquenchable popular report, gradually begins to emerge. And, indeed, there is no shortage of documentation for Joan’s papacy in later centuries. Frederick Spanheim, the learned German historian who conducted and extensive study of the matter, cites no fewer than five hundred ancient manuscripts containing accounts of Joan’s papacy, including those of such acclaimed authors as Petrarch and Boccaccio.

Today, the church position on Joan is that she was an invention of Protestant reformers eager to expose papist corruption. Yet Joan’s story first appeared hundreds of years before Martin Luther was born. Most of her chroniclers were Catholics, often highly placed in the church hierarchy. Joan’s story was accepted even in official histories dedicated to Popes. Her statue stood undisputed alongside those of the other Popes in the Cathedral of Siena until 1601, when, by command of Pope Clement VIII, it suddenly "metamorphosed" into a bust of Pope Zacharias. In 1276, after ordering a thorough search of the papal records, Pope John XX changed his title to John XXI in official recognition of Joan’s reign as Pope John VIII. Joan’s story was included in the official church guidebook to Rome used by pilgrims for over three hundred years.

Another striking piece of historical evidence is found in the well-documented 1413 trial of Jan Hus for heresy. Hus was condemned for preaching the heretical doctrine that the Pope is fallible. In his defense Hus cited, during the trial, many examples of Popes who had sinned and committed crimes against the Church. To each of these charges his judges, all churchmen, replied in minute detail, denying Hus’s accusations and labeling them blasphemy. Only one of Hus’s statements went unchallenged: "Many times have the Popes fallen into sin and error, for instance when Joan was elected Pope, who was a woman." No one of the 28 cardinals, four patriarchs, 30 metropolitans, 206 bishops, and 440 theologians present charged Hus with lying or blaspheming in this statement.

There is also circumstantial evidence difficult to explain if there was never a female Pope. One example is the so-called chair exam, part of the medieval papal consecration ceremony for almost six hundred years. Each newly elected Pope after Joan sat on the sella stercoraria (literally, "dung seat"), pierced in the middle like a toilet, where his genitals were examined to give proof of his manhood. Afterward the examiner solemnly informed the gathered people, "Mas nobis nominus est" -- "Our nominee is a man." Only then was the Pope handed the keys of St. Peter. This ceremony continued until the sixteenth century.

Another interesting piece of circumstantial evidence is the "shunned street." The Patriarchium, the Pope’s residence and episcopal cathedral (now St. John Lateran) is located on the opposite side of Rome from St. Peter’s Basilica; papal processions therefore frequently traveled between them. A quick perusal of any map of Rome will show that the Via Sacra (now the Via S. Giovanni) is by far the shortest and most direct route between these two locations -- and so in fact it was used for centuries (hence the name Via Sacra, or "sacred road"). This is the street on which Joan reportedly gave birth to her stillborn child. Soon afterward, papal processions deliberately began to turn aside from the Via Sacra.

As for the Church’s second argument, that there was not sufficient time between the papacies of Leo IV and Benedict III for Joan to have reigned -- this too is questionable. The Liber pontificalis is notoriously inaccurate with regard to the times of papal accessions and deaths; many of the dates cited are known to be wholly invented. Given the strong motivation of a contemporary chronicler to conceal Joan’s papacy, it would be no great surprise if the date of Leo’s death was moved forward from 853 to 855 -- through the time of Joan’s reported two-year reign -- in order to make it appear that Pope Leo was immediately succeeded by Pope Benedict III.

Link:
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/popejoan.htm
JMPD1
no he didn't. That was my interpretation of why a man "has" to be in a class that is taught by a woman. Sorry for the mis-conception.

My thought being that the man would have to be present because
a - she is unable to control a class of males (being a frail lil thing)

or

b - being a woman, she might 'tempt' these up and coming young virtuous males (since the original temptress was Eve. Or Lilith. depending on who you believe).

Since I can detect no other "logical" reason for LoG's statement that a man would /have/ to be present.

zandore
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD Today @ 11:22 AM )
1 Timothy 2

12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet
So you are saing that all your female teachers in school are sinners?
QUOTE(lightbeyondthedark Today @ 11:59 AM )
The bible says to honor your wife...
That was going to be my point.
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD Today @ 12:05 PM )
right. LBD... i was saying that in terms of Church and teaching spirituality
LOG in time you will find that other than the obvious differences( w00t.gif ) men and woman are the same.
QUOTE(JMPD1 Today @ 12:10 PM )
Ah, but in the bible, if it is writ, it >>must be true<<, no?

So I hope that you are all keeping those little women in line there fellas.


NOTE: The preceeding message was chock full of sarcasm, for those who are sarcasm-intolerant.
As was mine and thank you for editing yours. tongue.gif
QUOTE(QueenoftheNight Today @ 12:12 PM )
Thats pisses me off. Women can rule over man in the church or elsewhere. Tis is why I hate how people follow a old story book on how to live their lifes of control things.
Dont be to quick on that times are changing and for the better.
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD Today @ 12:26 PM
)
... they just arent supposed to be preachers... they can do other stuff..
Women can not be as Religious as men?


LoVer_Of_GoD
didnt say that either... zandore... come on, dude, u know what i am saying.. it is said that they are to be in silence for Eve sinned first, not Adam... that is also why they have the pain of childbirth.
zandore
QUOTE(LoVer_Of_GoD @ Apr 19 2005, 02:09 PM)
didnt say that either... zandore... come on, dude, u know what i am saying.. it is said that they are to be in silence for Eve sinned first, not Adam... that is also  why they have the pain of childbirth.
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grin2.gif I know what you did say and did not say my friend....Lol
I just want to make sure that you know that to make it today in this world you are going to have to look at women on even terms. YOU WILL at some point in your life have a woman for a boss, A teacher (You have at least one now), A mate, and last but not least a Pastor. Times are changing.....Get with it or get out of the way my friend thumbsup.gif
Mr. Fahrenheit
That whole idea is ridiculous. Women should be able to do anything a man can do; and they can, ability-wise.
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