Just read Genesis... look. here---

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Are you saying that God made a mistake when he made Lucifer?

NO, he created lucifer, he knew what he was gonna do... read this
EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . ."


and he knew what he would become... God is all knowing, remember?

and scripture tells us directly
I TIMOTHY 3:6 Not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

in Ezikiel(sp) it says that God made Satan with the power to make moral decisions

Satan is called "perfect" because he was the most beautiful of all.

He was created by God.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

???



PS. LOG Did you find those names for me?

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


for every creature is good if it be received with thanksgiving, for it is sanctified- To make holy; purify. or made holy by the word of God and prayer.

no, not yet... im still looking... dont know why cant find them just yet

zandore.. i dont know the name of two OF the men, there were actually four... the translation of the bible was done wrongly.. therre were two thieves or duo lestai and two malefactors or kakourgoi... robber is lestai or kleptes... the translators added the word "one" on the right and "one" on the left because there was no greek word in the text specifying the number there were, so they assumed...

check it out.

Lover of God, do you use any religious texts for your spiritual beliefs other than the Bible? Some of the verses and stories of which you speak aren't from the accepted King James version is why I am asking.

here ya go about lucifer having a type of free will
Isaiah 14:13, 14

(13) You said in your heart, I WILL ascend to heaven; I WILL raise my throne above the stars of God; I WILL sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

(14) I WILL ascend above the tops of the clouds; I WILL make myself like the Most High. 5

like which ones jennrose?

Well, what really made me think that were some of your ideas on the Tribulation, most of the commonly accepted beliefs on what will happen during that time aren't not found in the scripture. In fact, some of it I have no idea where it even comes from. (If you could point me to where the idea that ALL the followers of Jesus are taken before the end of the Earth, I would appreciate it. I have never found where that idea came from.)

Anyway, the story thieves you are mentioning by name in this thread, I don't recognize that from the Bible, so was curious if they were from another source.

And a philosohpical question: If God is perfect and good, how could he create a mistake (Evil). Wouldn't that nullify His all-perfect goodness?

"And a philosohpical question: If God is perfect and good, how could he create a mistake (Evil). Wouldn't that nullify His all-perfect goodness? "

Romans Chapter 7, Verses 7-25.

"(If you could point me to where the idea that ALL the followers of Jesus are taken before the end of the Earth, I would appreciate it. I have never found where that idea came from.)"

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18.

(Jesus said) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Luke 19:27

"Tyranny: Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly"
- American Heritage Dictionary

that son could cause an entire village to die, that should be reason enough alone. group oriented society, remember that.

all the more reason not to be that rebellious son.

only john 8, so?

well it was taboo to hang people. he that is hung on a tree is cursed or something like that. although if the rebellious son had wanted to die in some other manner, im sure the village leadership wouldnt care.


how much of a threat would one guy advocating a radical departure from tradition be in this society? very very little. probably no one would have listened to him. probably be like the guy one the corner yelling "the end is near!"

You skipped a lot of it.

The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14“But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don't want this man to be our king.’

15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16“The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17“ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18“The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19“His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25“ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me."

God IS absolute power. As far as unjustly and cruelly, read the Roman verses I gave, and there is more on it than just what I gave, before and after those verses. And if you can't understand it by those verses, then you never will.

LOL, does Jesus say for them to do it? Nope, they did it willingly and Jesus says if the can accept in doing that, then let them do it.

ya beat me to it skypryer

LOL read the Bible and you might find out (incase you don't like reading, it's in the first chapter of the Bible, you don't have to read to hard ). Seriously zandore is funny taking everything out of context, post verses before that so you can actually try to present evidence.

I suppose since it's a parable it will be impossible to try and get a literal context out of it. I have read the Romans you gave but I still cant figure out why God would tell Moses to kill children and women and rape virgins. And this time it's not a parable:

"The LORD said to Moses, 'Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites…. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps…. (Moses ordered) "Now kill all the boys. And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31: 1-18

It explains that: 16 "Behold, these [women and children?] caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD."

Which follows by: 17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."

The "matter of Peor" I believe is referred to when Israelites turned to worhiping Baal.


So they left virgins "for themselves" to have sex with them, no?
But I still don't see why they killed male children. Well, I mean I do see why. It's similar to what they did to jewish children in nazi camps. But why would God want that?

Well, actually I do still love him, but I don't think I created my own religion. The Christian Church taught me all these stuff, they didn't tell me to read the violent parts in the Bible.

i think every christian creates their own version of christianity. that is why it is so easily adopted - it is so easily adapted.

I hate to say this, but I think so too.

Well, just like you said, the people were vile, and God was getting his vengance on them, because they led his people astray. Because of this, they had spiritually murdered some of his people, and they themselves were spiritualy dead (hence, the Roman verses, and other verses in Romans and else where), because of their sin. So, he had them physically killed because they were a threat to his people. But because they themselves chose to be spiritually dead and spiritual murderers, they chose themselves that their physical body is worthless. Even the children, through their fathers they are murdered and also a threat. But God does not say to rape the women, he says to take them for themselves, to make them their servants/wives/etc. But in other verses, he says to treat your servants/slaves/whatever good, and to give them a month of mourning before you take them into your household.

God to you might be a tyrant, because you base him off of worldly things. Yet, God is not worldly, he is the one that created the world, so you cannot base him off worldly things.

And one person's words of sin can penetrate and hurt many others in their faith, which then leads to more destruction. So if you say that the women and children were innocent, would be wrong. The sins of their fathers take place in the children (both genetics and personal/family demons). So these people brought it down on themselves by first choosing to disobey and sin against God, our creator. So if you want to call him a Tyrant for wanting people to worship him as our creator, (it was our purpose of being created to worship him and love him and obey him), then fine. But he is the one with that created us, physically, mentally, spiritually. For a man to act as he does, is sinful, because we are men and we didn't create other men, and would be saying that we can be like God (which clearly we can't), so a man like that would be an evil tyrant. But you cannot say that to the Creator of all life and of the universe itself.



Actually, God even says in the Bible that we all have our own understanding of him and his Word. But the only thing that matters is that you believe in Him, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. In Revelations, the churches he sends letters out too, each church is the different type of understandings of that time (and today). But sometimes it doesn't mean they are right, or wrong, because God is the only one who is knowing. (Note I said "sometimes", some things are just pure man's word, or way off of God's true word).

MrScienceGuy - I'm disappointed in you on this one. You disagree with my faith and I accept this. BUT, up until now I've respected the comments that you make because they seem to be coming from someone who actually knows a bit about what he's talking about....

That quote you have, Luke:19:27 is from a parable. A parable (as I hope you are aware of already) is a story designed for ONE SPECIFIC POINT.

Jesus was telling the story from the perspective of "a man of noble birth" (Luke 19:12). It was he who said to "kill them in front of me" (v27). Jesus wasn't saying kill everyone who doesn't follow him, but, again from the perspective of the noble (who was being crowned king) - "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our King'" (v14).

The one specific point here is the focus of the servants that were entrusted with the noble's money, and how they served (or failed) their master, or lord, or ruler if you will.

Until next time though, keep up your comments. They challenge me to challenge what I believe. I honestly have learnt things from you that have helped me.

It depends on how you look at the word "test".

If you look at it in the concept of being "tempted", then read James 1:13 - When tempted, no one shoulod say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone".

A test however like the one that was put in front of Abraham in Genesis 22 where he was told "take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." (v2) This is a bit different. God wasn't simply testing if Abraham would kill his own son for his God.

In order to understand this we have to go back to Genesis 15. God tells Abraham: "Look up at the heavens and count the stars - if indeed you can count them... So shall your offspring be". (v5)

God gave Abraham a promise that day, that his children would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. Abraham was very old (90 years old I think from memory), and had only one son. If Isaac died, there is no possibility this promise from God could be fulfilled. In Abraham's mind this was a no-brainer. He trusted God so much that even though he was told to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering, he knew there was no possibility that this would ever happen, otherwise all the promises given to him by God would end up being lies.

Bobbie_McRobbie,
I've said that about that chapter a while back, but zandore said so every verse thathas violence is a parable? He didn't understand that the parable was about an unjust king. I like how people take quotes from the Bible out of context, and when you give them an answer they're not satisfied.

Look not only on the events, but the pattern behind the events...

I posted a similar note on one of the other forums, can't remember which, but here it is again...

In the Bible (both the OT and the NT), there is a cyclical, repeated pattern in how humanity relates to God. That pattern is:

SIN - JUDGEMENT - REPENTENCE - GRACE - TIME OF PEACE

Definitions -

Sin - people do stuff wrong against God.

Judgement - God's punishment (or promise of punishment)

Repentence - people say sorry, promise to return to God.

Grace - a way out; a remnant remains.

Time of peace - time of peace, before cycle starts again

The picture in the OT is not of a vengeful God, but a God which, as all good parents must do, punish his children for doing wrong. It's called tough love.

Ergo - same pattern, same God.

He's right Startlitkate and Haillo Hellfire. You can't choose the parts of the Bible you want to believe in and what parts you don't. The Bible is the Bible. What is cheap is looking only at the parts you like and say "the rest is wrong".

Jesus used the Old Testament. He attributes the Bible to God. If you follow Jesus, you should do what the Bible says - "all scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

ALL scripture........ Not some..... Not only what you like......

He has just as much right to use the Bible as we do.

Why would only people who believe have monopoly on its use.

It's not making fun of our belief. It's questioning our belief's. There's a difference. I enjoy their perspective. It forces me to examine my own opinions on the subject and not to blindly believe simply because I do.....

not to mention so many christians take the bible as the only truth on christianity, the bible has to be used by non-believers if we are to have credibility to those christians. I once asked a christian to prove his religion without using the bible and he told me that would be heresy!

Evil isn't just a type of sin. Evil IS sin. Evil is not doing what God wants.

If there was no evil there would be no disobeying God, thus no free-will.

God doesn't create evil. But he did create the capacity for us to choose. When we choose other than God's way, that is evil.

The word "good" here is not used in reference to good vs evil. Notice the 1 Timothy passage does not say "For everything created by God is PERFECT". It says it is GOOD. Good for what? is the question I ask. Good for God's purpose. Go back to the original Greek translation. It will back this up.

bobbie, you can edit your posts and reply to more than one other post at a time. try not to double and triple post so much.

Please please please please please please please please tell me you are not serious when you say this. How can you attend Church every Sunday and blindly accept what they say.

"They didn't tell me to read the violent parts in the Bible". All the more reason you should. You can't take half measure when it comes to faith. Read it all. Find out. Your whole life revolves around your faith. You owe it to yourself to be as informed as possible.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't go to the Chruch every Sunday...I just like to pray everynight for my thanks an the forgiveness.

But through out my life, I have been told that Jesus loves, Jesus cares, I even saw a movie that made me cry and understand Jesus more(The Passion). However confusing the bible tells me of the violent acts he did, I just can't stitch the bible's teachings to what every other Christian is telling me, what I see, and what I believe in.

It is so easily adapted when people use the Bible in the wrong contexts. When looking at a passage, there are a whole heap of things to look at - context (who is it being written to; why is it written, that kinda thing). Literary form (apocryphal eg Daniel, revelation; poetry eg Psalms; historical eg Deuteronomy). How the passage fits in with the rest of the chapter, the rest of that book and the rest of the Bible as a whole - and more.

If typical steps like this are followed, there is only one answer, not many.

There may be minor differences depending on various factors, but the major themes running through the Bible are universal. These major themes are what should inform faith. If the minor ones take control.... well, that's where fanaticism grows, and things like the inquisition and terrorist bombings spring up.

a quick thought on the violence issue:

(i am not saying in this whether big g exists or not)

the god of the bible is modeled after man. he is an evil, tyranical, jealous, spiteful, vengeful creature.

now consider that what man best responds to: agression, threat, force, dominance....

perhaps, just perhaps, this g character was merely playing a role that best served his needs to communicate to the people under his thumb. As the saying goes, sometimes use the carrot, sometimes use the stick. If the being is made man in his image, and we can mimic/act, than so should he be able to (since he by def should be able to at a minimum do all we can do)

God knew there had to be a black to the white... What is white without black?

Amen...


Do not be deceived into thinking that you can understand Gods will...

LBD
~peace

Indeed.

It cannot be known by a mortal mind.

The dimensions involved are impossible to perceive.

Yes, someone has already informed me of this, the quote in the sig will be removed. I failed to check the source. My bad.

Im beginning to see that it is impossible to argue for the tyranny of God even through the most direct evidence simply because the question of God is too fundamental. God created us and he has the right to do anything he wants with us: kill, torture, etc etc. In the end, the only reason he created us is for his amusement, because he was bored and he needed someone to love and punish, someone to worship him and tell him how great he is. Someone to lead wars in his name and slaughter children just because they happened to be of "impure" descent. I will no longer continue to argue for God's moral character. I'm simply thankful for the fact that I'm an atheist. And I thank you all for participating.

Nice meeting ya