everything is a random event wich is possible because of the product of random events preceeding it, having 0<p<1 (we will exclude p=0 and p=1 for now).

because of the interdependencies of these events, we see the interconnectedness of the universe.

man trys to create an artifical order to the universe. He focuses on the patterns to the randomness and calls that order. When something falls outside that order, he attempts to explain it with anecdotal thinking. Thus man created all the artificial paradigms by which he contrains himself: good, evil, gods, absolutes, ect. Man focuses on convergent thinking, looking for the one correct answer. divergent thinking would give zero, 10, 100, .... answers, all possibly correct. The ultimate testament to this failing is religion, irrational beliefs of the absolute, and even some of science (but not true science).

anything that declares there to be an absolute is a falsehood. The mind wishes to create order as a coping mechanism, as a stress reducer. The order does not really exist. It is as stated, a pattern within the randomness. It is a failure to read an absolute from a probability.

On events of p=0: there are no such events. This merely indicates such an event has not happened yet. In the stricter sense, it indicates an event will not happen given the constraints placed placed by previous events. When you say p=0 on you rolling an 8 on a die, it is constricted to such by the previous event of you selecting a die with less than 8 sides.

On p=1: the present is p=1. When an event is happening, it is happening. On future events, we again see that p=1 only when contraints are placed on the potential event.

man seeks order, and creates it artificially. If one releases the entrapments of the mind one sees that chaos creates order, the natural order. We are here because of random events, the universe is here because of random events, everything is random events. That is the order.

WELL SAID!!! You have just stated what I try to put into words but always fail to do.

I'm a Deist but I see your point. Well put!

I agree with, that everything can never be absolute especially religion, if the scriptures where absolute then we all would believe with out any objection.

However hyperactive this randomness why would it not be order it may very well be, your chaos theory is not absolute . You say we create order out of chaos. I think its just what we can see out of events that we see the order we perceive for ourselves out of the millions of possibilities.

I think order the one we create or perceive for ourselves is just a necessity for our own personal use, you are right. But because an event can turn out in a countless variations that does not mean that everything is random (chaos). Why would a specific event be an outcome out of a million possibilities. Could it be because under certain circumstances this would happen "order". In another variable of similar occurrences there would be another outcome still following an "order" in a another set of conditions. And these conditions the ones that can be identified can be used to predict the same occurence of an event if future conditions are similar despite if it is still only a guesstimate. And if we could in fact predict every occurence with all the variables then the universe would not be all that random but more deterministic.

I would agree that there is a randomness in the universe but that is because we cannot process every single piece of information we perceive. If we could then we could easily predict the future. Anyway just because we are finite in our minds and create order out of random events that suit our reasoning it does not mean that the universe is not in order.


I think your just trying to see it as randomness as coping mechanism, as a stress reducer. The randomness does not really exist. It is as stated, a lack of perception within the complexities. It is a failure to read an absolute from a order.

Sorry for the low blow but I think your mistaking randomness for the vast complexity of the universe. I may talk as if I said this is absolute but you are also speaking in absolutes also.


If one releases the entrapments of the mind one sees that complexity creates randomness, one would have to interpret or attempt to find order.

Sorry just playing around but answer me this, If chaos creates order then where did chaos come from? There must have been an order to define it.

Again we do see order for our own necessity, but this random events you speak of may as well be just the complexity of the universe. And Chaos comes out of order and vice versa, you cannot tell me which one came first.

or course it is not absoulute. By its very definition that nothing is absoulute it declares itself not absoulute!

it is not that "we" create order from chaos, but that complex systems will create orders, and create changes through fluctuation. There are quite a few books on this and I brought it all together in a rather short post (taking from each what was needed to unify). (cog psych, percep psych, systems theory, chaos theory, biology, physics)

Our minds actively filter information, thus creating order. In that sense you are correct that we do indeed create order with our minds (pre-subconsciously, automatically). If we didn't, we would be rendered unfunctional by information overload.



under certian circumstances = a priori conditions. I am saying without any a priori conditions there is no certianty.




the universe does have an order to it. an order from the pattern of chaos. If we mapped out the probabilities for all events in all times, we would see a pattern. Certianly each event has a different probability of occuring. It is just that none of the events have a guarentee of happening. The chaos/randomness is the order.



Actually, I don't mean to sound as if I speak in absolutes. The compexity of the universe is the randomness of the universe. Again, patterns do emerge, but they do not grant us absolutes. We use the likelihood of events in making decisions, but we should not mistake them for certianty. We only achive a false certianty when we place a priori conditions/contraints on the events.





There never is absolute order. If there was absolute order, there would be no chaos. Chaos creates an order (of probabilities), incomplete order is chaos.

I can not tell you with certianty which came first. The universe is a self organizing system that is not at equalibrium. I am not offering how the universe came to be, but what the universe is.

Part of divergence is that simultaniously gods both exist and do not exist.

Infinite luminary spheres extend themselves in multiple parallel universes throughout the darkness of space.

The infinite is quantitative although necessarily spherical.

The infinite luminary spheres multiply themselves outwardly and inwardly, as much as in the infinite large as well as in the infinite small.

The infinite is reversible towards its navel which whirls in all of its quantifiable points. Everything emerges from within the darkness and return into the darkness.

The darkness is the navel where the Diverse whirls into Universe.

Infinite quietude whirls within the darkness before the manifestation of the light.

It is within this nocturnal tempest where all the infinite possibilities abide.

I can not believe we are a random product... Its just not logical to me...


LBD

Isn't it interesting this chaos creates order, life and spirtituality. What kind of randomness is this

You`re not the only one feeling that way.



An abandoned car deteriorates and falls apart. Everything in the universe is subject to entropy: the law says that, left to itself, everything becomes less stable and less organized with the passage of time.



It is important to note that the Law of Entropy by itself renders many of the claims of materialism invalid right from the start. For if there is a definite design and order in the universe, the law holds that, in the course of time, this situation will be undone by the universe itself. There are two conclusions to be reached from this observation:

1) Left to itself, the universe cannot exist for eternity. The second law says that without external intervention of some sort, entropy will eventually be maximized throughout the universe causing it to assume a completely homogenous state.

2) The claim that the order we observe is not the result of external intervention is also invalid. Immediately after the Big Bang, the universe was in precisely such a completely disorganized state as would exist if entropy had been maximized. But that has changed as we can plainly see by looking around. That change took place in violation of one of nature's fundamental laws-the Law of Entropy. There is simply no way to account for this change except to posit some sort of supernatural creation.

ref:
www.harunyahya.com

Interesting theory. Very intriguing.....

However, there is of course the pre-concieved assumption that a god (or gods, deities, spiritual entities etc) did not set about creating the universe in which we live - or at least by putting that possibility into an equation of infinite possibilities, thus spiralling that theory into the realm of infinite randomness....

But then again, by making this statement, I am going in with the pre-concieved notion that a God did work to create the world which we know and (on the whole) love.

Funny, isn't it....

According to this theory on infinite randomness, your statement is flawed. The universe, going through a "big bang" or other evolutionary theory, could have been trying to create itself thousands - or millions, billions etc - of times over, but it is only now that it just happened to fall exactly perfectly for us. Living as short a time as we do, we cannot hope to extrapolate into the future to see if this world is actually going through Entropy or not.

There's just no way we can look at the odds of the universe being the way it is and say "this is impossible", we can only look and say "this is extremely improbable".

The mind of the fool

Everything in the mind of the fool is a random event which is possible only in his head because of the product of nonsensical random events preceeding it lunacy, having 0<p<1 (we will exclude p=0 and p=1 for now).

Because of the interdependencies of these events in a head without order, we see the interconnectedness of this fancy universe.

His mind trys to create an artificial explanation to his universe. He focuses on the patterns to the randomness of his mind and calls that chaos. When something falls outside that chaos, he attempts to explain it with theoretical thinking. Thus his mind created all the artificial sophisms by which he contrains himself: energy, matter, quanta, absolutes, etc. His mind focuses on convergent lunacy, looking for the one correct answer. His conflicting thinking would give zero, 10, 100, .... answers, all possibly correct, yet nonsensical. The ultimate testament to this failing is desperation, irrational theories of the absolute, and even some of science (but not true science).

Anything that he declares there to be an absolute is a his personal falsehood. His mind wishes to create chaos as a coping mechanism, as a stress reducer of his own chaotic mind. Order in his does not really exist. It is as stated, a pattern within the randomness of his lunacy. He is a failure to read and an absolute cuckoo from all probabilities.

On events of p=0: there are no such events. This merely indicates such a nonsensical mind has not happened yet it exists. In the stricter sense, it indicates an event from his mind will not happen given the constraints placed placed by previous nonsensical events. When you say p=0 on you rolling an 8 on a die, it is constricted to such by the previous nonsensical event of you selecting a die with less than 8 sides.

On p=1: the present is p=1. When a nonsensical event is happening, it is happening only in his mind. On future nonsensical events, we again see that p=1 only when contraints are placed on the potential nonsensical event.

His mind seeks chaos, and creates it artificially with his theories. If one releases the entrapments of his mind one sees that his chaos creates more chaos, the natural disorder of his lunacy. We are writing this here because of the random events of his mind, his own universe is here because of random nonsensical events, everything is random events in his mind. That is the order of his chaotic mind.

@Loge:

the only lunacy is to assume something is absolute because you deemed it so in your head!

false knowledge is no knowlege.

Hyperactive are you suggesting that ther is no absolute for us to concieve or assume, or that there is no absolute period.

there are no real absolutes for us to assume (we certianly can concieve of them). Everything we deem an absolute is such only due to the preconditions we place on it. (the question becomes whether or not the preconditions are true or false).

There are absolutes though. As in the first post, what is happening in the present is absolutely happening in the present (now if we are perceiving what is really happening is another thing, which again each event will have a probabilty of us perceiving it correctly).

(of course, part of the equation is the more accurate the predictions we want to make, the lower the probability of us being correct. Something very important to all aspects of life, including science).

(hope that is clear - i am thinking about the different likelihoods for universe formation and pulsation right now so my mind is a bit off topic)

Thanks hyperative.

For a second there I thought you would go all loony and say even our own existence is not absolute.