Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science from the Cambridge University and who is critical of the theory of evolution as well as materialism, says in an interview:
One thing I do in classes to get this idea across the students is that I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, the other one is blank. And I ask, "What is the difference in mass between these two computer disks as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess"? And of course the answer is zero, none, there is no difference as a result of the information. That is because information is a massless quantity. Information is not a material entity.

Dr. Werner Gitt, a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology, expressed much the same thought:
A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter...

A book-forexample- is formed by paper, ink and the information it includes. The source of this information is the mind of the author.

And there is one more important point: This mind comes prior to the material elements and it decides how to use them. A book first appears in the mind of the person who will write that book. The author makes logical connections and comes up with sentences. Later, in the second stage, he gives these ideas a material form. By using a typewriter or computer, he turns the information contained within his mind into letters. Later these letters go to a printing house and they make up a book.

So here, we can reach the following conclusion: "If matter includes information, then that material has been pre-organized by a mind possessing that information. First there was a mind, and then the owner of that mind turned that information into matter and thus created a design."

Therefore, the source of the information in nature cannot be the matter itself, as the materialists claim. The source of information is not matter, but rather a supra-material Mind. This Mind existed before matter. The Mind created, shaped and organized the whole material universe.


ref:Werner Gitt-In the Beginning Was Information.
http://www.harunyahya.com

I would have to disagree with that, while things like language, math, and physics, are just circular thoughts and have nothing to do with the true nature of the universe, that does not mean the mind existed befor the matter. Language, math and pysics only gives matter a meaning.

How can we give meaning to matter before it existed?

mens sana in corpore sano

Therefore, regarding the face and shape of the physical body (matter) from the intellectual humanoid mistakenly called a human being, even when his physical matter presents the physical characteristics of a human being; their psychological processes are not of a human being. Since it is stated that the human being is internally pre-organized by a Divine Mind.

Thus, the physical body (matter) of present individuals includes information pertaining only to animal behavior; his evolving matter has been pre-organized by an animal collective mind possessing that information.

Present psychological processes of people when compared with those of a true human being are completely different, totally distinct.

the problem with this is that evoluton does not describe how unnatural things such as books and computer disks came into being!

Such a narrow description of information shows the imposing of improper confines on the premises in order to reach the desired outcome.

because the theory of evolution deals with living creatures, insects and plants? And not with constructs.

some theories of evolution also deal with the formation of the universe....

Materialist philosophy claims that all living things are formed by matter alone and that genetic information appeared somehow by "chance." This is like saying that a book could be formed from a random assemblage of paper and ink.

Materialism subscribes to the theory of "reductionism," which claims that information can ultimately be reduced to matter. For this reason, materialists say that there's no need to look for any source of information besides matter.

Israeli scientist Gerald Schroeder who studied physics and biology in universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and the author of the book The Science of God, makes some important remarks on this subject. In his new book entitled The Hidden Face of God: Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth, he explains the conclusion reached by molecular biology and quantum physics as follows:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom.

@imam: two words - systems theory.

Combination of Guya and Universal Conscience? I dislike the concept because it would naturally promote a Hive like mentality wich is clearly not in existents.

evolution
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
2.
a. The process of developing.
b. Gradual development.

3. Biology
a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
b. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.

4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.

5. Mathematics The extraction of a root of a quantity.

Synonym: development.
1. The act of developing.
2. The state of being developed.
3. A significant event, occurrence, or change.
4. A group of dwellings built by the same contractor.
5. Determination of the best techniques for applying a new device or process to production of goods or services.
6. Music
a. Elaboration of a theme with rhythmic and harmonic variations.
b. The central section of a movement in sonata form, in which the theme is elaborated and explored.

So you equate the manufacturing of books and computer discs with the creation of the universe?

By your logic, after the first mortocar was invented, man could have walked away for a few centuries and the modern sports car would develop all on its own. Evolution deals with the growth and development of NATURAL systems and organisisms, not artificial constructs.

This is a highly amusing thread. So far since I've been a member of UM, evolutionists have posted articles supporting evolution, to which the creationists and other such believers have rallied against those, bringing up arguments as to why the articles are flawed.

Now someone posts an article claiming divine influence in the creation of the universe....... and the evolutionists are out in force trying to pick the article to pieces.

Classic................

its too early in the morning to even think about how you came up with that!

of course evolution deals with development of natural systems - the universe being one of them! did you mean to quote someone else?

True!

However, just as a single computer that can only store information according with its memory capacity, likewise, the consciousness of the atoms, molecules, cells and complicated organisms, they store information according with their own kind.

Present humanoids’ minds are incapable to store the universal wisdom because of their DEVOLVING state!

Present humanoids’ brains are in a state of degeneration, in other words, gray-computers (brains) have too many viruses!

LOGE,

How long have you been studying this stuff? if you dont mind me asking...

18,000,000 of years!

No theory of evolution deals with anything other than the effects of mutation of the genome on natural species.

The original post attempted to equate artificial information, that is, information which is irrelevant to the media through which it is being transferred, to inherent information, which is an inherent part of the media, such as DNA, being used.

systems theory describes the evolution of the universe. it is "evolution", but not biological evolution. It is still a theory of the evolution of the universe (and refered to as the evolution of the universe).

I agree with what you say of the original post. I am not in agreement with the original post!

Yes, of course, but let's not be coy. When people, particularly on this forum, talk about theories of evolution, they are referring to Evolutionary Theory, not to the use of the word 'evolution' in its generic sense derived from the original theory.

The only reason I bring this up is because of the pervasive belief among so many in this forum that evolution deals with the universe. Such ideas are the first step towards a general misunderstanding of the scientific process. Since this is so evidently meant to support a creationist attempt at verification, it is essential to identify precisely what we are talking about from the very beginning.

indeed it is a problem. we need not muddy the waters too much! The problem is there is no clear dividing line in the scientific community. We have evolution of species, co-evolution, evolution of the system/environment (of biological & nonbiologal parts).... all of which encompass tradional "evolutionary theory". Now they are expanded to encompass the universe. (the trend to move from micro to macro - or the recognition that micro and macro are dependent on each other)