National Geographic link

Oxyrhynchus, 100 miles (160 kilometers) southwest of modern-day Cairo, rose to prominence under Egypt's Greek and Roman rulers. The town's papyrus-rich garbage heaps were excavated in the late 1890s by two Oxford University fellows, B.P. Grenfell and A.S. Hunt. Researchers have been painstakingly piecing together the Oxyrhynchus papyri fragments ever since.

So far 65 volumes of transcripts and translations have been published by the London-based Egypt Exploration Society, which owns the collection.

The latest volume includes details of fragments showing third- and fourth-century versions of the Book of Revelations. Intriguingly, the number assigned to "the Beast" of Revelations isn't the usual 666, but 616.

Professor David Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original. He said: "This is an example of gematria, where numbers are based on the numerical values of letters in people's names. Early Christians would use numbers to hide the identity of people who they were attacking: 616 refers to the Emperor Caligula."

the most interesting thing about that twon that i ever heard was that it was where pharoah sent convicted criminals to live.
it started as a leper colony and convicted criminals in egypt had their noses sliced off
to indicate their criminal intent to others.
leperousy is also a disease that takes your nose in its early stages
you were maybe wondering why its called Oxyrhynchus in the first place
rhynchus iirc correctly is greek for nose

so that means his noes is growing or....

you think noses grow when theyre cut off ?
that wouldn't be much of a punishment would it
if you decide to try it yourself to satisfy youre curiosity let me know how you get on
but make sure you e mail me the results because i probably wont be able to understand you on the telephone
hehe

That's not the first time I've come across that reference to 616-I'm trying to locate the other info...

here ya go tricia
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=616...le+Search&meta=
hehehe

this is new i always thought it was 666

MDCCLXXVI is 1776 in Roman Numerals
The Babelonian numbering system is base 60
Mystery Babylon is the Biblical name for the Devil
The triangle is the mathematical representation of Diabalon
By applying the Delta to MDCCLXXVI gives us the numerical arrangement of 666


I found this on a site that is obviously anti-masonic. I dont believe in Revelations and I dont give a hoot about Masons either . I just wanted to pass this on.

HELLO
I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE STUDIED THE BIBLE FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS NOW AND MOST PEOPLE AND CHRISTIANS DO HAVE MANY VERSIONS
OF REVELATION AND DANIEL IN THE BIBLE..
FROM MY EXPERIENCE, IT WAS GOD WHO SPOKE TO MY HEART, ONE DAY AND THIS IS WHEN I WAS READY TO KNOW THE TRUTH, THAT THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST IS 666 AND IT IS THE NAME THAT COMES FROM ANCIENT BABYLON.

What about 668 !! The NEIGHBOR of the beast!!

From a fragment uncovered at oxyrhynchus yesterday
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apparently its the long undiscovered first page of the Bible

^

Fantastically funny.

hmmm....
takes 10 years to study the buy-bull?

only took me about 6 months of ready the buy-bull and studying it's history to realize that it's just what it claims to be... Buy Bull.

interesting point there

Then you are in for a really boring death...

Its not a number, its a mark. "6" is the number of evil. "666" or "616"
just signifies that its an evil mark. If "6" means evil, then "666" or "616" means "greatly evil."

6 months eh? thats probably why you think its bull. Did you speed read? and speed study?

Oh please don't tell me that reading the Bible has lead you to any sort of divine revelation.

There is no manner of logic that would allow someone to take that book for anything more than a work of fiction had they not been influenced by someone prior/during/after opening the cover.

That fact that it has been so bastardized throughout the ages cannot be overlooked. There is nothing infallible about it, as the "Infallible Nature of God's word" portion was added in the 12th century by monks trying to cover up for the fact that they had been making significant changes to the story for centuries. Once the Catlick Church finally decided to stop altering it, the line was added to give the book credibility.

Most churches knew of the WHOPPING VARIATIONS at that time - so they actually welcomed the final revisions.

Believe it or not, the truth IS out there, and it isn't in the bible. As we can see from the papyrus & scolls that have been discovered, religion is what you make of it - not what it is on its own.

I'm a firm believer in the phrase:

Don't be so quick to judge, and don't be fooled so easily... There's a thin line between philosophy and physics.

Ok, tell me where it is becaue I'm dying to know.

Tell me what the "truth" is.

In numerology terms the number 6 is the number of love and the number 666 reduced becomes the number 18, 1+8=9...9 is the number of man
To quote Jimi Hendrix "If 6 turned out to be 9"..."if the mountains fell in the sea, let it be it ain't me"...999 reduced becomes 9

Which one do you want? The truth about the bible, the truth about the Earth, the truth about evolution? You tell me... How do you like your truth served?

all please

Very well then - Let's begin in the A.M. for me - this is a long discussion.

Rumor has it the last MAN who had all the answers was killed about 2000 years ago. Apparently know one liked a know it all even then!

i always thought it was 666 as did i think everyone else in the world, if it was 616 wouldnt we have figured it out a long time ago?

I don't think anyone will know till the time comes.

The Book of Revelation is quite specific that the number is the number of a man.

Perhaps the qabalists can tell us more.

The original story that Revelations was composed from was written in Aramaic, translated to Hebrew, then Greek. Considering that the original story had nothing to do with Christ, and yet he is in the story of Revelations, I would be suspect of much of the "data" that appears. On the other hand, if "666" or "616" turned out to be correct, which language would the name be in - in order to calculate it?

Try looking at it this way: If you strip all of the additions made to the story by the early Christians, and put back what was removed, you come up with story much different than the one people read today. 666 & 616 do not figure into the original at all. Stick with Daniel and Ezekiel for your prophecy... They at least, haven't been meddled with so much.

What was this "original story" you speak of?



Again, the number "6" stands for evil. "666" represents the Satanic trinity that takes place. Its a mark of great evil. It symbolizes something. I highly doubt it will be an actual number.

Most people of the first-century Mediterranean world were familiar with the apocalyptic literary form. The book of Revelation reflected both the form and content of apocalyptic writings so that it seems almost a parody of these writings. I am aware that the Boof of Revelation is a continuation of earlier Judaic apocyliptc litterature.

Many people view Revelation, sometimes called the Apocalypse, as a mysterious book of strange symbols and images. Yet it has a clear and definite historical background. John, who subosedly wrote it under the inspiration of Jesus Christ, mentions where it was written and that it was addressed to congregations in seven cities in Asia Minor.

That meant the original Christian readers of Revelation—especially those who had come out of a Jewish religious background—would have immediately recognized it as an apocalyptic work. The language, thought content and symbols would have been familiar.
While there are great similarities between apocalyptic writings and Revelation, we should also note their important differences. Revelation radically reinterprets the Old Testament in an almost contradictory way to the Jewish apocalyptic writings.

While the visions in the Book of Revelation are frightening and mysterious, they have been applied to just about every disaster and war throughout history. Revelation was originally written to exhort the Christians to bear up under the horrors that they were experiencing from the war with the Roman Empire. It was specifically a vision of the horrible suffering they were enduring at Roman hands. Only later was it embraced as a prediction of the end times of the world.
Another observation to bear in mind is that the historical tales in the Bible take place almost exclusively in the Middle East. If Revelation's predictions apply to modern day, they will mainly apply to the future of the Middle Eastern countries. It's not likely that most of the details are meant to be applied to the modern Western nations or the rest of the world.

The mark of the beast is very specific, and there have been many claims as to the identity of the great beast.

The original manuscript in its original language would be intersting to study.

The book is called "Serekh ha-Milhamah", and is otherwise known as "The War Rule". A copy of the documents have been found in the Qumran texts (dead sea scrolls), but there are other versions existing - and I have seen them. The one found at Qumran has been referred to as "The pierced Messiah" document, but that is really a mis-guided attempt to reconcile the 1st century copy with the story of Christ. The most well known "fragment" is written in Herodian script, therefore placing it in the first half of the first century C.E., and making it a Hebrew translation. I recommend that everyone study the Qumran documents on their own, without allowing the church leaders to translate it for you... The results may be more surprising than you want; if you are a "true believer" in the myth of Christ.



IMHO, you assign far too much importance to a number. I think you would be interested to read all of the Apocryphal & Pseudepigraphical works available for the Old & New Testaments. A vast majority of the information found within today's texts are literally absent from any of the early writings. It appears that The Church may have had an ulterior motive when copyrighting "The Good Book(s)".

Is this what you speak of?

"English Translation of The War Rule (Serekh ha-Milhamah)"
4Q285 (SM)
Courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority (12)

]Isaiah the prophet: [The thickets of the forest] will be cut [down
with an axe and Lebanon by a majestic one will f]all. And there shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse [
] the Branch of David and they will enter into judgement with [
] and the Prince of the Congregation, the Bran[ch of David] will kill him [
by stroke]s and by wounds. And a Priest [of renown (?)] will command [
the s]lai[n] of the Kitti[m]
Transcription and translation by G. Vermes

Yes, that is the fragment written in Herodian script, and translated by G. Vermes. There are complete versions written in Aramaic in Israel, and used by the Kabbalahists. It's a very interesting read...

I would love to see it. Do you have a link?

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scroll...ry/warrule.html

Thanks for that!

no problem

From the bible according to spike milligan
1. in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
2. And darkness was upon the face of the deep; this was due to a malfunction at lots road power station
3. And God said, Let there be light; and there was light, but eastern electricty board said he would have to wait until thursday to be connected
4. and God saw the light and it was good. He saw the quarterly bill and that was not good

I know which version i prefer
and with any luck Spike's will be the definitive version 2000 years from now
The man was a saint

I read it in person. I'm trying to find out from my friend in Israel if they have it in an electronic form or not. I will let you know.

The link is to the Hebrew fragment only.

Alright, aside from the vast numbers of unannounced texts that a variety of sources keep squirreled away, there are books like The "Serekh ha-Milhamah" that are partially available, and a whole mountain of Apocryphal & Pseudepigraphical works too. Not to mention the Bible(s) themselves. It becomes somewhat confusing in that a lot of the work seems to contradict one another, but take heart - there is an answer in the compilation of stories.

You need to begin by understanding that the sanitized version of the "Good Book" most of us read today has been refined over the past 3,000 years in order to remove "intellectual requirements" from it. What was originally meant to be an intellectual pursuit (bible study), has now been relegated to a fairy tale, in that - most of the serious questions have been removed... Not answered.

Beginning with Genesis, we read that "God" actually created the planet, and everything else right? Not quite. The oldest texts say otherwise. In fact, they make no mention of creating anything other than the animal life on the planet (man included).

According to those stories, "The Elohim" saw the planet and remarked that it was good for what "We" want to do. [They] did what they came to do, and departed for a time. A long time passed, and "The Gods took from what they had created, and created it anew". From this creation, God produced man - and his mate, this time - in the image of the Gods, but were limited in that they were not Gods, as the hosts of heaven. Time is measured via celestial movements in the story, not by the movement of the moon and our sun. If I even had to guess, I would say that it was measuring an Epoch at 250 Million years... (Roughly 1 revolution of the galaxy), but that is purely a guess on my part.

At any rate, what you wind up reading, is that the "Gods" are Energy life-forms, and that they travel space AND time, for no reason other than that they can. Time means nothing at all to them, yet the ability to interact with matter definitely does. They routinely manufacture life throughout "all that they travel in", so that they may inhabit that life to be corporeal for a time. It sounds crazy, but if you think about it - some of the stories in our existing Bibles make sense when you consider that possibility.

So, what you wind up with, is an understanding that the "Gods" are not actually looking out for us as much as they attempt to train us to survive. Survival of our species has little or no effect on them (except maybe we offer a little entertainment from time to time). They do routinely return, and they "do their thing" whenever it suits them.

A vast majority of all of the myth and rumor perpetuated in the religious texts are completely manufactured by man in order to gain dominance over other men. In light of the knowledge that they liked to "inhabit" animals suddenly makes sense of the stories that the "Gods" were perceived as other races (angels & demons).

I'm running on now... My apologies.

The texts do a wonderful job of explaining evolution on top of making sense of our "religious texts". The fact that evolution seems inevitable for plant, and simple animal life, but not complex animals (and Homo Sapiens), becomes clear when you ponder the meaning. Life evolves on a macroscopic scale, but on this planet, complex life was given a "boost" by those that had evolved billions of years in the past... Or future... There is a common thread in the texts that makes me wonder if the "Gods of the past" aren't actually from our future.

I know this seems vague, but it's the best I can offer without writing you a book on the subject.

Specific questions will get specific answers.

Yes quite funny. They dont even know the truth themselves.

Believe what you want to believe, you will know the truth when you pass. You dont like it to bad cause its the truth and you will look back thinking 'damn', why didnt I...'

You shouldnt claim holy scriptures false. Respect peoples beliefs. Just because you meet some who are rude or forceful doesnt mean others with the same faith are the same way.

phantomviewer


First and foremost, I believe what I believe because I, unlike you, have actually read (and comprehended) the texts that predate the scriptures you hold "near & dear", and can see the changes made to the "The Good Book" for myself. I rely on the evidence to support my assertions.

Secondly, rest assured that I will never look back and wish that I had believed the Border's Books version of God that you do. I have been near death twice, and completely dead once - and none of the events ever changed my mind. As a cancer survivor, I found little use for throwing away everything that I learned in my life, in a last ditch hypocritical tantrum to try and find favor with a "God" that has been marginalized by the likes of King James (and the boys). If you find comfort in such things - you go right ahead; no one's stopping you.

And lastly - I make no claims of errancy in the bible - I posit facts. That fact that the scriptures are ridiculously bastardized at the hands of man is not a "guess" or a "view" - it is a fact. This is one of the things that I have been trying to show people for 20 years now... The proof is right in front of you, and available to see for yourself, but the question is: "Do you have the guts to set aside your preconceived notions, and accept that the truth may differ from what you have been taught?"

Laziness is a very human trait; governments have relied on it for years. Just look at the tax laws and the laws for gaining access to government grants. They are made intentionally difficult just to keep the lazy people on their couches. Heck, even insurance companies have joined in by requiring that people have to jump through hoops in order to get the benefits that they pay for! Warranties and rebates are another prime example... Are you aware of the data that shows that only 7% of all rebates are ever successfully filed and closed? Well, organized religion relies on the same human trait. By putting all of the information they want you to believe in a convenient book, they figure that 99% of the population will never look elsewhere. And they'd be right - 99% of the time.

You go right ahead believing what you want to believe, as it is never my intention to change anyone's beliefs. My sole wish in this life is that I manage to lead people to knowledge so that they can make their own INFORMED decision.

Whatever decision it is, I will respect it - as long as it was an informed one.

amen

And I'll second that ^^^^

So some dude comes up with that and the world is suppose to just follow it blindly ??

where was the fragment missing from? what about all the other copies of the scripture that were made??? were all of those wrong to ? but this guy is the only one who got it right ?
Scripture doesnt mention 666, it mentions "SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX", it written in extensin not in number... so there goes is baloney theory were it belongs !

honestly, the "texts" you told me of didn't really make your point. the "The War Rule" "Serekh ha-Milhamah" you told me about is only six lines. but yet you compare these six lines to the entire book of revelation.

i asked you what the original story of revelation was, and you gave me that.



ok, where does it say they are "facts." and tell me how they are "ridiculously bastardized" since these are "facts."

I can't tell if that is directed at me or not.... Give us a hint.

If it was, you must have misunderstood something. I didn't "come up with" anything. I'm simply reporting the evidence. You ask where the fragment was missing from? It was missing from the whole piece. But still - this fragment is recent in comparison to the text that it was originally copied from.

If this wasn't directed at me - just ignore it.

Like I said - Believe what you want to believe, my conscience is clear.

wait?

this "some dude" was St. John.

So "SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX" does not mean "666?"

does it mean "222?"

anyway, im just teasin.

but the actual "666" represents a mark of the satanic trinity.

i always heard it was 9 instead of 6, cause 9 is the divine # and its been proving a woman in the 20's came up with the 666, cause any bible older than that dont mention the 666 mark of the beast...was gov. propaganda