but animals capable of killing a man existed proir to man, so what of them?

did all the animals converse with god back in those days too? was the garden of eden like watching "the jungle book" only all the animals were best buds with god and his newest play-thing? or did those naughty animals get cast out too (for eating of the tree of freedom)?

sorry.. why does everybody forget that the torah (OT) was written in a colourful symbolic language? there was no eden, or tree of evil, or a talking snake,..... the tale is to convey a message, just like so many other fables!

I was actually wondering how sadistic a man might be if he forced you to stay in the one place with only one other person to talk to for all eternity. Just the thought of it makes me break out in a cold sweat.

Why do you think God was intent on letting people live in perfect peace and harmony amongst the garden of Eden in the early days, where life was easy and everything you ever needed was right at your finger tips. And yet now days he wisely sends us trials and tribulations for that which does not kill us makes us stronger. With our suffering all just a part of the divine plan, becuase if it is part of the divine plan then it was obviously plan B. Plan A got thrown out when we ate that Apple.

Even after taking in Ashley's post.. it still looks like the whole thing would have been avoided if God didn't lie to them and just said "Don't touch tree or I'll kick you out!" Or better yet.. made the tree unaccessable..

Again, God clearly says not to eat from the tree of knowledge...

16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this admonition, "You may eat indeed of all the trees in the garden.
17 Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die."

God never lied to them. God told Adam and Eve strait up.

Also, if anything, God was merciful to them.

He could have struck them both dead in the garden right there.

It's not something I can really explain without writing a 10-page essay on the subject. But I'll try and give the condensed version.

Essentially, the covenant that God gave to Israel at Mt. Sinai was the blue-print of what they should do to live in submission to God. It was God's standard for man. However, no human has ever been able to meet those standards. Thus, in a sense, the OT laws condemned humanity, not saved them. By showing us everything we needed to do to be perfect and blameless, it also showed us that there was in no way that we could be so

Thus the need for God's forgiveness (which ultimately came through Jesus)

All the people in the OT that were given honourable mention (Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, the prophets, and more) were praised for their faith. Not because they were able to live perfect lives. David for example committed adultery and murdered that woman's husband to cover it up. Abraham lied to multiple kings about his wife. But they were deemed to be "godly" because of their faith in God - and thus Jesus.

I hope this helps. Until next time,

It may look like that from your point of view..........

Was there anything special about the tree? Perhaps. But I think it's probably just the same as any other tree in the garden. EXCEPT that God told them not to eat it. The moment they did eat from the tree, they knew good and evil.

As much as you'd like to look at the tree of knowledge of good and evil and think God made a terrible mistake, I see it as absolutely necessary. If there was no tree, then there'd be no way for humanity to disobey God. Thus there'd be only one choice - worship God. There'd be no free-will.

As amalgamut said, this was a direct result of them eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:17-19 -



God punished the man just as much as he did the woman for what happened. There's no double standard here.

And yet, no one can answer my question of WHY god desired to keep the race of man ignorant and under heel.

WHY did god also feel the need to plant this tree in the midst of the garden to tempt them? The cunundrum that I see is that niether Adam or Eve had any knowledge of good or evil, yet were expected to somehow 'know' that disobeying god was 'bad'. So either they DID know, in which case eating the fruit of the tree was redundant and unnecessary; Or, they didn't know and god had set them up to fail.

Either way, it was designed to be a 'lose-lose' situation for the poor human pawns in this eternal game.

I thought I answered your question. Read post #107 again.

The cunundrum that I see is that niether Adam or Eve had any knowledge of good or evil, yet were expected to somehow 'know' that disobeying god was 'bad'. So either they DID know, in which case eating the fruit of the tree was redundant and unnecessary; Or, they didn't know and god had set them up to fail.

The fruit from this tree contained all the knowledge of everything. Once Adam and Eve ate this fruit, they instantly knew ways to make war, to make weapons,to make things of evil. After they ate this, they knew it all. This is why God warned them not to eat the fruit, because once you ate this fruit you would know the ways of man, and how to make war. This is why God never allowed them to eat from the tree of life. They would have lived forever knowing these things.

It was a test of the loyalty of man.

They both knew good and well that they weren't supposed to eat from it. They never would have eaten from it, had the serpent not tempted them. So, apparently they had a sense of right and wrong. Keep in mind the serpent said "thou shalt not surely die" and the serpent convinced them. God didn't force them to do anything, he let them do as they pleased.

So you are saying that they had knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit? And, who exactly would adam and eve make war with? Was there anyone else in the garden with them? I think you are stretching, just a little.

>>They both knew good and well that they weren't supposed to eat from it<<

Sure, god told them not to, but if they had no knowledge of good and evil, how could they know they were doing anything wrong?

Not to mention, it seems pretty damn harsh to punish your 'beloved creations' in such a manner for a first offense, don't you think?
Akin to me banishing my daughter from the house & the family for playing too much x-box when I tell her not to.

in other words:

the genesis story (when not taken literally) describes the evolution of man!

man was not capable of rational thought or what we call free-will.
he lived in nature unaware of his own mortality.
there came a change point were the first free thought occured.
man became aware of himself, his mortality, ect....

yay! the torah supports evolution!


also note that when the tale is applied more literally as has been here, the god is the enemy of man since it is he who wishes to deny man his evolution, his potential.

god wants good little pets, not intelligent creatures.

thank goodness for talking snakes! the wise old reptiles know the world well (just look how long they have been here unchanged)

Is it not what you do not do that get you to hell according to Jesus on the last judgement?

this is what i have been trying to tell you people. the bible is compatible with evolution. and even the bb. however, god created this bb to begin with.

im sorry, what do you mean?

Can someone clarify this for me...

Since Jesus supposedly died for all of our sins, wouldn't that mean that all the sins that we have committed have already been repented for? So therefore, wouldn't everyone go to heaven? Well, just need clarification, please, no bashing.

the tree contained the knowledge of all good and evil things. if man continued to eat the fruit, everyone would know everything and try and kill each other. if im not mistaken, it speaks more about this story from adam and eve, in enoch. (a book not included in the modern day bible.)

If they had no knowledge of good and evil (none at all) then the snake would have been unable to tempt them in the first place.

What do you mean by "such a manner?"

Honestly, this has been an issue that has been discussed before. Sometimes I feel this way, yes.

But I can only go by the teachings of the bible.

I watched an episode on this once before, but I can't remember what it was called for the life of me. (I think it was on the history channel.)

However, it clearly says in the bible is that the only way to heaven is through the blood of christ. And letting him into your heart.

expelling them from paradise, toiling where before there was no need; the pains of childbirth, etc. Ya know, all that stuff that god "punished those two souls with.

Obviously, god is a strict jurist, and California's '3 strikes' ruling wouldn't sit well with god.

Altho, from the sentence handed down to cain, god appears not to be a fan of capitol punishment. But then there is sodom and gamorrah, so I guess that idea is out the window.

I meant about not being charitable like not feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned, etc. that can get you to hell, as in the gospel.

well, add a "y" at the end of "sodom" and you get some idea of the people that were in that city.

I think this is more of a matter of opinion. (from certain gospels I mean.)

It's more about personal acceptance than natural phenomenon.

Yeah its Jesus's opinion.

Rich guy: "Hey dude! Hey, Jesus...hey man, what do I have to do in order to have this Eternal Life thing your buddies been talking about man"?

Jesus: "Oh, Eternal life? It's simple man, just honor the commandments man...honor the commandments that our heavenly father gave man...that's all".

Rich guy: "Oh cool man! I already do that. Is that all"?

Jesus: "Well, yeah...and sell all your stuff man and come join us man".

Rich guy: "Mmm...no way dude...sounds tempting but I really like the Porsche man".



Look, There is a Hell and it was created by Christians and it is reserved for Christians. It actually works out ok because the people on Earth who hate people so much for not being in their "IT" crowd (their religion) that they'd wish burning and torture for eternity will get that for their punishment.

Peace & Enlightenment to all.

so you are saying sodomy is punishable by death, as per god?

Nice. What about the rest? You don't think gods punishment of adam and eve was just a tad harsh?

Sorry, im not following you. Could you be more specific as to what you mean?

Sometimes I wonder where you come up with these things.

Thanks for the clarification!

I never said that. I said "some idea as to who these people were." It wasn't just this.

No. God could have killed them right there had he wanted to, and sent them to hell. God was very angry because his creation was just tempted by a different creation that he kicked out of heaven. Not to mention God had warned them.

Now, had he not warned them first, I could see this as being harsh.

I'm just glad I'm not your child. I can imagine what happens when your kids disobey you.............

what would give you the idea that i would do bad things to my children? lets leave comments like that out of this please.

I wasn't casting aspersions on you.

But then, isn't what god did to his children 'bad'?

I wouldn't say it as "bad." I would say more of discipline.

"To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."" (Genesis 3:16)

"To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food untill you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; and dust you will return."" (Genesis 3:17-19)

So, since Adam and Eve did not abide by God's rules, they will have to live the "real life." This could have all been avoided had they not dis-obeyed God.

Keep in mind, God still loved them...

"The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."(Genesis 3:21)

I would also probably classify this more as "unpleasant." But, "bad" means "unpleasant" too.

I suppose he may have been a little harsh, but he wanted to get his point across, "Do not disobey me."

Who would they war against? There is only Adam, Eve, and God.
Once they ate the fruit they would know the ways of man? Something does not sound right with this sentence. Adam and Eve (Humans) would know the ways of man (Again humans). What are you using for reference?

Again I ask "What/where are your references"?
Aaaah I think things are getting a little clearer

"unpleasant"? Then you are the master of understatement.

Here you have two beings, who want for nothing, an 'earthy paradise', and they make one error and are then banished. Not only banished, but in addition, will have to work very hard for little gain, and suffer terrible pains during childbirth. Freezing in the winter and broiling in the summer. With NO chance of a reprieve or pardon. Yep. sounds like a loving relationship to me.

"Timmy, I told you that if you spilled milk on the carpet what would happen! Now I have to expel you from the house and explain this to your mother. Oh yeah, and let me kick you on the way out! That will teach you to disobey!"

I wasn't saying they would make war amognst themselves (Adam, Eve and God)
I was referring more in the future where man makes war with man. Basically, when they ate this fruit they knew all that the angels knew.

"And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22)

God did not want them to know these things and achieve immortality or divinity on earth. God created man to be man, not an angel. He didn't want man on the earth knowing these things of good and evil, forever while being devine at the same time on the earth. It would be like an angel living a mortal life on earth forever.

Again, they would be like an angel living on earth as man does. Knowing how to make weapons of war, and such. By eating from the tree of knowledge, they gained much information in the sciences of war. So, God did not want them to live forever on the earth knowing all these things.

The book of Enoch goes more in depth about the "Nephilim" (half-angel half man.) And their abilites to do devine things while being half man. Adam and Eve had this same knowledge, however they were not "half-angel."

The Bible. It does not say "God created the bb," but I was suggesting it could have. The early chapters of Genesis resemble the "Big Bang" theory.

The "Books of Enoch" were not included in the normal Bible. It was taken out probably because people would not believe it (even though I think its true, and many others agree.) It does not contradict the Bible, but it speaks more of the "Nephilim." And many people do not think that the "Nephilim" were half-angel.

However, the Bible is very clear in talking about these beings...

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went into the daughters of men and had children with them. They were the heroes of old, men of reknown." (Genesis 6:4)

So, we clearly see that angels were coming down to earth and mating with women to produce offspring. These beings were half-man, half-angel, or "Nephilim."

Which is a factor in explaining the whole alien ordeal. The Bible actually supports the idea of alien beings. Because you always hear stories of aliens mating with humans. And Genesis 6:4 shows us that something wasn't right going on back then (hybridization), and "also afterward" so this means its still going on today....

Trust me, he could have done much worse to Adam and Eve.

Again, God clearly warned them not to do what they did. It's their own fault for disobeying God.

God still had a relationship with Adam and Eve. Matter of fact, he even had relationships with their sons.

Cain and Abel is a good example. Cain actuall killed Abel. And God did not kill him.(Cain.)

Faith! That one is worthy of self-debasing punishment, levied by what is ostensibly one's alter ego, emersed in a deity complex as thinly veiled masochistic fantasy and implied as imagined and worthy punishment for what can not be accepted as one's unique personality and ego, with all it's perks and flaws. Which is inherent in the mass of human characteristics.


Or....


A place name co-opted by the Christian faith, who's pre-history began in what are labeled , "pagan faiths". Exampled by the legend of the Goddess Hel and as reference to the under world or death, in it's various cultural mythologies.


Then again I could be wrong....but not likely!

Isn't this a little out of context (Of the Bible)? Using a "book" like is was part of the Bible. Need I say how much you chastised me for using out of context verses? At least I stayed in the Bible! Is this just an opinion or do you have proof?

This was originally a part of the Bible. However, it was taken out for reason I stated above. Besides, the books of Enoch are mainly focused on the Nephilim.

Mainly my opinion. However, you can see that the early books of Genesis are comparable to the theory of evolution, and the BB (accept for the part that God made it.)

I don't mean to point out the obviuos, but I think perhaps the punishments where a tad harsh. Someone ate a piece of fruit that they shouldn't have over 3 millenia ago and now days all woman are ripped from one end to the other during labours which can last days on end, and that isn't even the sore bit, you don't feel the ripping until much later. And there aint much can be done about it.
Let us not mention how merciful God was and that he could have done much worse, childbirth is still a very dangerous undertaking, even with todays modern medicines. I can assure you that I nearly lost my life both times I experienced labor. Many woman before me have. Oh merciful God. I actually feel perhaps if he had of killed them off and started a fresh a lot pain and suffering could have been avoided. Why didn't he just give them the option of repenting for thier sins through the blood of Christ?

I did admit a post back or two that they were a bit harsh. The only thing that we don't know is how big of a sin this was, nor do we know the knowledge that was learned from that tree. So, its somewhat difficult to weigh the punishment and the crime correctly. We know the punishment, but we don't fully understand the crime they commited.

I am very sorry if I offended you or anyone in discussing this matter. I myself being a man will never be able to understand what a woman goes through during childbirth.

God was mad because He had given them a perfect life, and they went against His wishes. If he had let them back into the garden the would have eaten from the tree of life. They would have been angels on earth whilst knowing all the knowledge of the universe. God does simply kill someone for sinning. He gives them a chance to redeem themselves. God knew that he had to enforce some form of rules, as well as punishment if his wishes were not met.

yeah, but even criminals get sentence limits. They screwed up, and were never forgiven. Despite whatever 'relationship' god continued to have with them, they had no chance whatsoever to make up for their 'crime'.

1 strike, and they were done, case closed, no appeal, no pardon from the governor.

The 'criteria' can be found at Matthew 25:31 regarding damanation in christian terms.

Satori enlightenment .

Good deeds are not the basis for salvation. However, God does expect us to help others in times of need.