Thats the thing. They don't work. There are too many missing pieces.

Science is slowly filling in the pieces. We will know some day it is just a matter of time. A day, a week or a century....In time we will know.

there are no missing peices, unless of course you mean we didn't sqeeze in the magical mystery men of alpha-centauri!

only those that do not understand the full theories nor the scientific process claim there are missing peices to the theories.

i guess we are back to your old double standards wrt science and religion then, are we? yup, no enough fossils discredits evo but 1000's of errors throughout christianity doesn't mean a thing! there must be no power greater than that of blindness.

Would you prefer science to fill in all the missing pieces with 'Because science made it so' and 'it is just the will of science, there is no other explaination'.

Tell me....Has there been one fossil that shows a fish that had a developing lung? Or a creature growing a wing? Or a "half fish, half land creature?"

Even scientists claim there are missing pieces, and that these two theories have huge holes. They "fill" in the holes with more theories, that still leave huge chunks out of the entire equation.

1000's of errors? Show me them. Matter of fact, show me three.


Like I said before....

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them.... (1 cor 1:14)

So, therefore your statement is true.

Obviously you have never heard of the mudskipper, a fish that holds oxygen in a pouch or 'lung' and then wades out of the water for a few tasty nibbles before wading back down into the water again.
A developing lung, as well as limbs.
And what exactly do you think a frog is?

the theories are "complete". scientists continue to search for data. as data is discovered it is determined if it supports or refutes theories. this is the scientific process.

as of now, the perponderance of the evidence supports evo (not darwinism) and the bb. should the weight of evidence shift, so will scientific thought. science is dynamic!

as for the errors of christianity, go read through the threads here, or read the bible and compare it to current knowledge. you give a very wide range of error to that book.

as for that quote you throw up: a man without teeth does not chew his food either. more circular arguements! like i said before, it is the fool that creates for himself a false god and a false idol in the image of himself to please his ego.

Yes, but how do we know that the Mudskipper hasn't always had that to begin with? How do we know it evolved from a normal fish? And its "limbs" are more less fins. Thats why I said "fossils" to support the theory of evolution by showing a fish had gills and a lung from the past, possibly from a different species. However, there are none.

A frog is not a fish. Nor is a whale. There is no evidence to show that either had gills to begin with.

then why do whale fetuses have gills that disappear during justation?

Read the Bible and compare it to currect knowledge? Are you talking about how the bible says the earth is flat?

oh no! not the flat eath debate again!

i am starting to feel like i am stuck in some twilight zone forced to watch gilligan's island re-runs ad nausium!

so gilligan, how do are we getting off the island this time?

I wasn't sure what you meant by "current knowledge."

I think the implications are greater if the mudskipper was a land animal going back to the water.

Kind of like.. whales and dolphins...

Yes but developing gills.

yar

yar.....?

To answer a simple question properly, the answer is none.

This is explained below for people who feel they want to know why i don't believe in Hell.

Does Hell exist?

Most religions seem to believe that we have a spirit or soul. Many people whom i know do not believe in anything remotely religious also lean towards the afterlife train of thought.

I think that it's not coincidence many religions have the same ideas... but we all have something in common... every one of us, good or bad.

In my personal non-offensive opinion, God as he, she, it.. is known all over the globe.. is the 'Force Of Nature', which we are all part of.

We are actually worshipping the natural forces of the planet. I don't think it is a person or being, it is an unknown entity that we have personified over the years to bring some sense to things.

IMHO, God or the various Gods and their personas are a physical or corporeal representation of hope, or variations on a theme, such as love, war etc.

We can't live without hope, and that in my opinion is why we will always worship something that has never been proved to exist as it is supposed to be, according to the various religious beliefs. I'm not ignorant of God, just open-minded to all options.

So, in my theory, if God is Nature (which makes some sense), and is an all-powerful force that we cannot see, but can see it's actions fully well.. it's very easy to see why we fear it, or should i say.. 'feared it'.

If anything, i would say we are in 'Hell' now. Hell is eternal torment, and if you and your soul can survive hell intact, you will progress to something higher. It's like a test. When in life as we know it.. do we have a happy ending? Not one that's real, but that's the idea.. the light at the end of the tunnel it what you aim for, but not everyone has the strength to get there.

YAR!

SilverCougar.. Love that Gecko!

everyone loves the geko X)

I'm just trying to figure out what that little brown thing is in your sig.

Someone did a smiley for me based on my avatar.

Here kitty kitty kitty



Yar Is that a purr?

you can just be yourself and go to hell. you can help people and everything, thats why you have to get saved. our soul isn't some liquid in us, its how we act.

You make this sound like it applies to everyone. Not all are Christians remember?

You shall have no other gods.* > Don't worship false gods

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. > Don't say God Da*$

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. > Go to church on Sunday

Honor your father and mother. > Don't Disrespect momma and daddy

You shall not murder. > Don't kill your idiot ex- husband even though you want to

You shall not commit adultery. > don't have sex with the mail man...man my daughter looks like him bad.

You shall not steal. > don't gank a keychain from Wal-mart

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. > Don't lie about your neighbor because his dogs poops in your lawn

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. > Don't get jealous because the neighbor has a pool. Just ask if you can swim in it.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor> don't desire your neighbor's wife because she cooks good chicken and dumplings. Just ask her to invite you over for dinner.

@101:

if we remove all the supernatural mumbo-jumbo from religion we get the following:

the 10 commandments are laws made by man to define those things necessary for a people to live together. these men refered to those things that promote the functioning of a tribe as "good", and those that interefered with said functioning as "bad/evil". now to add some real threat behind all of it, the mythology added threats beyond what the mortal man could do! rather than say man would punish you, if caught, they said an "always watching eye in the sky" will see your misdeeds and punish you - no excape or avoidance.

all of the mythologies are designed around creating social groups benefitial to the survival of man.

that is why things like good, bed, evil, etc are not real or absolute but are simple ways to create structure relative to what the society needed at the time.

the only hell is that which you create for yourself. it is all a matter of perspective. hell is on this earth now if you want it to be, and that is the only hell one need worry about.

Dear Hyper,

You say man created the 10 commandments...well doesn't God speak through man. ( man of God) And if these were just rules used to keep the people in line are they not good ones? I mean how can we say that having an affair with the milkman is okay. It is not that is just good morals, not just biblical. Oh and I can see why you would think that these rules were made just as a scare tatic maybe to fear God. But I think it is so much more than that. and yes we are living Hell on Earth day by day I have to agree. But if so is the biblical hell going to be much worse. I sure don't want to find out.

it was not until very recently in the history of man that man had the capacity to understand the voices in his head were coming from himself and not from external (i.e. godly) sources. it is a pitty we still carry this primative baggage forward, but as we know man is a creature of habit and old habits die hard.



only good as defined by the makes of the laws wrt the society they govern!

ex) these laws did not want fighting amungst the tribes because that intereferes with the production of goods, and offspring, etc. now if we look at a society that settles its differences via mortal combat (thus only the strong survive) these no fighting laws would be bad and spit upon!



in so far as lineage is important to the society for the inheritance of wealth and power it would not be benefitial to have the women out of control. i use that term because that is what it boiled down to in patriarchal societies! untimately, women have control of lineage because they know for certian who is their offspring (obviously), where men have to trust women when they tell men who the father is (until recent times with the advancement of genetic testing). thus a man wanting an heir did not want his heir to be of his neighbour's gentics, so the "don't be fornicating" laws came into effect (also not how it serves the selfish gene theory - we all want to have our genes carry on).




it is more than a scare tactic. it was to create a society in the image the tribes of isreal wanted.

i am not saying we do live in hell on earth, i am saying it is within each and every person's ability to make life positive or negative for him/herself!

when we accept what we are and take responsibility, apply reason, and come to understand the world we can reach a "higher level". when we abandon the baggage of superstition and insecurity we become whole. so long as we live under the mythlogy of old we are but worms.

So Hyper let us say your theory is correct(about men being incapable of understanding the words in his head) God created man thus he created their minds. Thus the mind of man has the knowledge of both good and evil-going back to the tree in the garden- so he knows wrong and right. Therefore man wrote the Bible with knowledge that was given to them. Man were also spoke to by angels. ex: Judges 13:3-5 about the birth of Samson. Okay thus the Bible is being told by angels too.

And about the 10 commandments again. Are you saying that maybe we should have more so our country would be better?

And we all have a soul and our personality is usually unlike our soul. We must all try to be more like our soul (our true self) then we will be more like God. Therefore we will not be worms anymore.

[QUOTE]
So Hyper let us say your theory is correct(about men being incapable of understanding the words in his head) God created man thus he created their minds. Thus the mind of man has the knowledge of both good and evil-going back to the tree in the garden- so he knows wrong and right. Therefore man wrote the Bible with knowledge that was given to them. Man were also spoke to by angels. ex: Judges 13:3-5 about the birth of Samson. Okay thus the Bible is being told by angels too.
[/quUOTE]

man created gods to explain things, not the other way!

man's mind contains the instincts of survival, which with primative reasoning became known commonly as good and evil (good and evil are not real, they are realtive terms. at full understanding it becomes clear good and evil are the same thing)


[QUOTE]
And about the 10 commandments again. Are you saying that maybe we should have more so our country would be better?
[/quUOTE]

there already are more than 10! the law libraries are so rediculous these days! laws should be able to be understood by everyone and not require lawyers to interpret! (funny how laws have become so distorted and corrupted, just like the "scriptures" of old - how history repeats itself)

[QUOTE]
And we all have a soul and our personality is usually unlike our soul. We must all try to be more like our soul (our true self) then we will be more like God. Therefore we will not be worms anymore.
[/quUOTE]

you have the right intentions. "god" as an ideal, yes we can indeed seek to become more than a mere animal. however, to become like the god of the monotheistic religions is to reduce us to nothing as opposed to elevate us to something! enlightenment is not about elevating the ego, becoming a supreme killer, or inflicting suffering on those unable to defend themselves from oneself. if we want to be like the monotheistic god, all we have to do is go outside and stomp on ants for "enjoyment" while chanting "feel my wrath, for i am the almighty one!" the "god" already shows itself not all that almighty so the human doing this would be closer to that "god" than it seems!

Give me an example of how good and evil are the same. Or let me see if this works. I own a car I drive it to work it is good. I am a speed demon in my car I accidently kill a 14yr old kid. This is what you mean. Give me one of yours. So you think we created God so we could better understand life as a whole. How come?


About the more laws I know they are here but it is so hard to see them. I mean I know I am nearly blind but Golly! I know that sometimes the laws of the Bible are confusing but if you don't overanlyze then you can usually figure it out.


Oh hyper your silly. Let me just explain something. I understand God has done things to hurt his people. But let us say the flood...he did this to kill the wicked men and women. And all that was left was Noah and his family. So I can understand why you think God is a "meaniehead" But he also is loving. He gave us his son to die on the cross so we are forgiven. Therefore he sacrificed himself for his children. So is this not loving. Wouldn't you like it if more people were loving and capable of understanding? I would love if we could all give up hatred and live in peace.

@101:
1. the simplest example of good and evil being the same is seen in dispute (both sides see themselves as the good side, and the opponent as the evil side).
2. why we created god? because when man became capable of free thought, he had to categorize his thoughts. "gods" are the absolutes by which things can be classified - they were a set of primative ideals.
3. the bible is a fallable work of man that is outdated for the most part.
4. for the jusus on the cross analysis, read the posts spread all over between aml and myself. to quickly sum it up: jesus and god gained knowlege from the crucifiction; according to amal jesus was a god to which i say with the a priori knowledge of a god jesus was looking forward to shedding himself of the burdonsome bag of water called a body; with jesus as a god, he could not die, and thus there was no sacrifice at all - it was all a trick to mislead the human puppets. the history of the monotheistic god does not show love, it shows a desire to control and a willingness to deceive the masses by any means necessary to serve its need to be adorned. IMO the last thing we need is anything or anybody as egomaniacal as this god running amuck! I personally do not understand hatred (from both an academic and personal perspective). i am a pacifist and at one with the universe. i recognize the interconnectedness of all. to hate you is to hate myself. to appreciate you is to appreciate myself. i can not accept the notion of a tyrant in the sky! it violates my very essence and as i have said before, if the bible were proven true i would probably kill myself out of dispair (when i studied christianity i became severely depressed by the oppressive message it delivers).

Do you see Jesus walking on the earth today? Did Jesus die a nice peaceful death in a nice warm bed? His body died, not his soul. Nobody's soul actually dies, technically we all live forever.

You fail to realize what Jesus went through during the crucifixion.

Oh dearest Hyper, You are very interesting...

1) Well there is a movie called The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. It is a western. But I do understand what you mean. So do you personally think that you having both a good and bad side is the same. Because say that the good and bad were on scales. Which out weighs the other? How can it be the same if we are in a fit of rage. Or even a burst of happiness?

2) so how is a man that is primitive have a free will?

3)agreed. But christians have to apply it to our lives even if it is somewhat out of date.

4)I have read you and amals posts on this very subject. And Jesus did not die he rose again so therefore it was a sacrifice even if it was not a true death. Remember jesus was not an animal sacrifice on an altar.

Oh and please don't kill yourself. That would make me sad.

and as said before, in comparison to what he gained it was nothing.

lets say money was very important to me (for a materialistic comparison). if somebody offered me 100 million dollars in exchange for the privilage of beating on me severely (of course stopping before killing me) if money was worth so much to me, then the pain of beating and recovery would be worth it to me!

same goes for jesus! if he knew a priori (being a god) what was awaiting him a little bit of pain on the road to reward would mean nothing to him!


the good and the bad are the labels we apply to things, including things within ourselves. if you see actions and intents only for actions and intents there is no good or bad, or even you see the good and the bad within each of them.



it all began somewhere.



yes, he rose again, to return to his idealistic place he was all too aware of if he was a god!

if he was a man, without solid previous experiential knowlegde of what awaited him, then it was a sacrifice because it was a gamble. however, if it was a gamble it lends support to the notion of the god being a great deciever and to use biblical terms - a rotten father!

too many double standards in the monotheistic religions! why is it this god is praised for things that we would condemn a man for? after all, if he is a superior being he should be behaving in a superior manner! this god is an inferior being and the more one looks at it, the more pleasant luicifer appears in comparison.

the problem with following a primative belief structure is it requires one thinks like i primative, i guess~

Well Hyper, I think I will say it again you are silly. I think Jesus died and rose again sacrificing his life for our sins. God is not a rotton father that is just mean. I think God knew what to do and he sent his son to come to Earth as a man. Jesus did not have to do this. He chose too. So is this being a rotton father. No. He just knew that by sending Christ he would save us (humans) from Hell.

so are you saying Hyper that all christians have primitive minds? That isn't very nice.

Oh and I do act and intent but sometimes I think you use these terms to cover yourself from being persieved as wrong. Are you afraid that what you have done is wrong and need to use these terms to justify what you do? Don't take offense I am just asking.


So in fact you have no proof that man with primative minds even got free will.

So do I have a free will you practically stated that Christians are primative.

Anybody seen "Cool Hand Luke?"


....."some men, you just can't reach....."

Huh?

you don't have to be a christian for him to be real.

"rotten father" - this came from the idea that jesus was but a man and did not know if he would go to his heaven. the debate led to amal saying god was testing jesus' faith. this led to me saying what kind of father would test his son in such a way to prove himself? if i had a son and tortured him to see if he really loved me, would you see this as an admirable act?

all people have primative minds! it is a part of the human make-up (three levels of the mind - also defined by the three biological levels of the brain). it just so happens that religions feed on the primative area.

right and wrong are relative! i must ultimately answer only to myself for my actions. i do not seek to justify anything, nor do i seek to judge anything. nature is not kind - things must die, it is in this dynamic that we have robustness. man just calls it bad out of his primal fears. i am silly as you put it? i am at odds with the world of man - any being that has things so backwards as to worship the material, to not see that in chrishing and "posessing" the material he becomes the posessed. any world that would artificially raise itself to a level arrogance. yes, i see christianity as a wholely negative force warping the world of man, but it is not the only one. man as animal has turned animalism into a religion unto itself. the disease of worshiping the false will be his downfall.

the proof of man with primative mind has free will sees you in the mirror! we all still have that primative part to us. the free will necessary for the development of the rest began there. it is part of the instinct, a necessary part of the animal.

i commend you for having ideals, especially when they come from a source so negative in my view! look at my sig -> it is the diversity that makes everything. i may disagree with christianity, but i would fight to prevent it from being destroyed. with all the god gobeldygook removed there are valuable undertones to the monotheistic religions! they reflect humanity, that is why they still exist. to deny them completely is to deny the full truth of humanity - no matter how it be viewed.

the problem is that the duality of religion - the "i am right, you are wrong" causes more problems than it solves.

when we finally are evolved enough to interact with creatures that meet what so many would classify as gods, we will no longer need them.

as now, as then, and as it will be, gods are entirely irrelevent to the existance of man.

God didn't crucify Jesus, the people did.

I am not and nor is he

well, if the god is all knowing like you claim, then he knew what fate awaited his son and still allowed it.

nice father figure there.

Yes, God knew. But that was the whole point of Jesus being here, to die.

Jesus wasn't sent here to play games and jump and dance and party and play dolls. He was sent here to preach the word, and die for our sins.

Sounds very much like human sacrifice!

Hyper, religion is something everyone is strong about but to prove your right or I'm right doesn't really solve anything. Sometimes it is just childish. Maybe the fact that are brains use the primative part when dealing with religion is because we shouldn't overanalyze things. This just complicates things. It makes you loose faith. Even as a pathist, right? Don't you have faith? As a human we all have animalistic actions but we shouldn't embrace them. For instance, to kill is animalistic am I right? Oh and I am glad you are so strong in your faith too.

maybe it is the use of the primative that causes it to be the embodiment of animalism!

one of the great ironies of religion is it pushes man as higher, yet reduces man to lower.

another is so much energy put into celebrating some mystical higher forces, when energy should go to respecting the basic forces.

right and wrong are artificial and only correct wrt the paramaters we place around them! ex) since you speak of killing: we say it is wrong to kill another man within society, but right to kill another man in defense of a geo-political ideal

in order to become the butterfly, you must first be the caterpillar. you must embrace what you are to become more than what you are. you must wecome the becoming. nature is not fair, not all caterpillars become butterflies, but the world would lose everything it is if all became the same. it is a journey that all must take on their own for they can not be carried. the best that can be offered is guidance, but the burden is that of the traveller. don't be fooled by the prophets either, for the truly enlightened do not claim themselves as such but leave it to you to discover. the magic is in learning to think rather than learning what to think.

my faith? a strange word to associate with me indeed. how do you see me as having faith?

edit:

we can stand by the stream and study it, this is science.
we can navigate the stream, this is religion.
we can become the stream, this is understanding.

The condition is if you don't listen to this weird guy up in the sky and he decides what you're going to do with your life........ if you ask me.... "God" should go to hell........