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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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hyperactive
May 25 2005, 11:52 PM
QUOTE(brittish_gurl @ May 25 2005, 03:49 PM)
The condition is if you don't listen to this weird guy up in the sky and he decides what you're going to do with your life........ if you ask me.... "God" should go to hell........ rolleyes.gif  devil.gif
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religion is the slowest changing thing within society. notice how over the eons religions have come and gone, but stood beyond the more immediate aspects of the cultures they served.

if you consider the end of the current monotheistic religions as that god going to hell, then he certianly will one day.
Ashley-Star*Child
May 26 2005, 02:42 AM
Yes Zanodore I smoke. But it had nothing to do with smoking. I love smoking, you can't take them from me no no!!! LOL

Darksinister,

A few pages back you asked why everyone doesn't go to Heaven after Jesus. No one prior to Jesus, bar prophets, from Adam and Eve onward went to Heaven, they ALL rotted in hell, or went to Sheol. When Jesus died, He got them ALL out of Hell and Sheol (including Adam and Eve) and took them to Heaven, and gave furture generations the chance to enter Heaven. What people don't understand is hell Sheol, etc, after Jesus, was no longer eternal. It's transitional. You end up on the 10th level of hell, like I said before, you gotta work your way up those 10 levels, then Sheol and either reincarnate, or enter Heaven (3rd Heaven for humans). The levels of Heavens AND hell are all held within space. The other side of the Human (3rd Heaven) is the human hells.


The reason the Revelation judgement is so important is because the way people get out of hell and make up for sins in through reincarnation 'Verily I say unto you, lest ye be born again, you will not eneter the kingdom of Heaven' and there's other eferences of reincarnation, Judaism (one type of it) believes in reincarnation etc. There WAS reincarnation before Jesus, the 'forerunner angel' for Jesus the Messiah as per prophecy was John the Baptist, Elijah, who like Enoch got transformed into a high ranking angel next to God (one of only two cases ever, and were no doubt anegls before) the angel Sandalphon, and who, both Elijah and Enoch would return AGAIN in Revelation as 'The Two Witnesses' and die, as Jesus said 'Even Enoch will die in due time'. Enoch and Elijah both went to Heaven without dying.
101
May 26 2005, 12:47 PM
@ Hyper

1)Faith is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2)or complete confidence in a person or plan etc
3)or institution to express belief in a divine power

So I think you have faith it might just be the defintion you use.

But I don't think having religion makes me animalistic. I truly don't have the urge to kill or drink fro,m the toilet. But this is just something you wanted to stab at me. Your silly

And as for a man/woman to submit to their beliefs how does this make them lower? I mean we all have belief in something so don't we submit really making us lower but in fact higher? I know it is weird.

Right and wrong- I love the examples. The fact that a personmay kill for pleasure or defense is both the same but some think it is wrong to kill a person out of defense because it is harming another life. But here is an example: I believe it is right to eat beef as you don't think it is right so am I wrong? It is something we could on for days about hyper.

caterpiller tranforms into butterfly? Well example) There is a river. In my faith you either can be ankle deep or submerged in water over your head. I wish to be submerged...if not you do not grow therefore you have no since in having a relationship with God. Everyone starts at the beginning and eventually makes a cocoon turning into something miraculos.

The stream can't we do all 3? I think so.

zandore
May 26 2005, 02:02 PM
QUOTE(Ashley-Star*Child Posted Yesterday @ 10:42 PM )
Yes Zanodore I smoke. But it had nothing to do with smoking. I love smoking, you can't take them from me no no!!! LOL
They are very bad for you! innocent.gif whistling2.gif
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 03:55 PM
QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 04:47 AM)
@ Hyper

1)Faith is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2)or  complete confidence in a person or plan etc
3)or institution to express belief in a divine power

So I think you have faith it might just be the defintion you use.

hmmm.... interesting you would see that in me! i have no belief in the "supernatural", no "complete confidence" in anything (see probabilities), or divinity.

QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 04:47 AM)
But I don't think having religion makes me animalistic. I truly don't have the urge to kill or drink fro,m the toilet. But this is just something you wanted to stab at me. Your silly

And as for a man/woman to submit to their beliefs how does this make them lower? I mean we all have belief in something so don't we submit really making us lower but in fact higher? I know it is weird.


animalistic is that coming from the primative parts of the mind. animalism is fear, suspicion, anger, instinct.....

religion is built on these primative functions. it is the surrendering to the urge to jump when things go bump in the night.


QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 04:47 AM)
Right and wrong- I love the examples. The fact that a personmay kill for pleasure or defense is both the same but some think it is wrong to kill a person out of defense because it is harming another life.  But here is an example: I believe it is right to eat beef as you don't think it is right so am I wrong? It is something we could on for days about hyper.


more suscinctly: it is both right and wrong to eat beef! it is right for you, but wrong for the animal which wishes to live!


QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 04:47 AM)
caterpiller tranforms into butterfly? Well example) There is a river. In my faith you either can be ankle deep or submerged in water over your head. I wish to be submerged...if not you do not grow therefore you have no since in having a relationship with God. Everyone starts at the beginning and eventually makes a cocoon turning into something miraculos.


be careful not to drown in those waters.

QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 04:47 AM)
The stream can't we do all 3? I think so.
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thumbsup.gif we can do all three. some can, some do. the strength of the species lies in that some are best suited to study, some best suited to navigate, some best suited to become.

however, when one becomes the stream, they know what it is to study and to navigate the stream. they become those that navigate and study the stream.

when i know who i am, i am you.
when i know what i am, i am everything.
when i know where i am, i am everywhere.
101
May 26 2005, 04:18 PM
Hyper,

1)I am wrong about your having faith then... blush.gif
2)Animalistic actions as you speak of being fear , anger, suspicion, etc. don't all humans have this in them. Isn't it something we posess. But the fact is that we have a choice to be living in fear, anger, and be suspicious of others. The choice is up to the one who uses it. I think man has evolved much since times of old...well some..definately not all. This is something we cannot change. The only thing you can change is yourself.
3)as for meat. How come is it bad you say for us to kill to feed on the animals flesh? Wasn't that what they are here for..nutrietion. I believe the purpose is if we kill an animal and only eat parts of the animal and not utilize the whole animal we are wrong. So if we eat all and use all parts Skin,meat, bones, etc. Then we have used it to the best. But when we killed buffallos just for their hides this is wrong. no.gif
4)I won't get drowned
5) so you are me? Well how is that hyper? No I understand what you mean once we know ourselves we can understand others. So you are everything and everywhere? In a sense meaning you are one with the earth becoming like the flower and the lion?

You have a very poetic soul. blush.gif
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 04:43 PM

2. man is an animal. the animal part is hard coded into us. we can over-ride the animalist aspects if we choose to. it is an evolution within ourselves.

3. it is bad to the animal you kill who does not want to be eaten while at the same time it is good to you who wished to eat him. that is why the concepts of bad and good are idiotic! they only work when applied at one level and one perspective!

as for the use of meat: well, you should respect yourself. in that i mean you should respect everything since it all passes through you. respect the animal/plant that dies so you may live.

4. i hope you don't drown! there are some nasty undercurrents in that river of religion.

5) in understanding we see the similarity of everything. we all came from one, things differ so much based on so little. yet sadly it is that very little that gets so much attention (the contrasts are more stimulating). if it were not used so much as a defensive measure it would not be so disheartening. defensive measures are one of the great deceptions of the mind, for they promise safety but only provide fear.
101
May 26 2005, 04:55 PM
2) we all evolve some faster then others it takes time to do so.
3)Btw I do respect animals. I feel as if they do so much for us as we do for them correct. Ex) I live in the country we own cattle. I give them hay, sweet feed, and salt licks. They provide us with a well manicured lawn and fertilized grass. we sell the offspring and what the owners do with that I am not sure. But I do in fact apprciate them. They are so cute.
4)ok, but does your river got undercurrents too.
5) so are you saying you believe in a God. Who created you and me?
I understand the whole fact is people concentrate on the negative which creates more negative. So this just makes us all look bad in a way. We just need to keep being strong and focus on what is best for us and this world.
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 05:00 PM
QUOTE
so are you saying you believe in a God. Who created you and me?


no gods here - gods to me are a human construct and as idiotic as belief in good and bad!

we came from the universe! we are part of the process started 4000 million years ago on a little sphere called earth. everything shares so much because we are all part of the same process, the same parts, and the same origin.
101
May 26 2005, 05:04 PM
So you are saying we just automatically appeared no creation... hmm.gif
Well let us say we are just spontaniously made into existence. how?
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 05:19 PM
@101: do you want the whole process, or just the overview?

4600 million years ago - origin of earth
4000 million years ago - origin of life; common ancestors of prokaryotes and archebacteria
3800-3300 million years ago - oldest biogenus carbon deposites from photosynthesis
2500-3100 million years ago - oldest mirofossils; prokaryotes dominate; anaerobic photosynthesis; environmental evidence for aerobic photosynthesis
...
2000 million years ago - appearance of free oxygen
1500 million years ago? - atmosphere stabilized, eukaryotes, mitosis
1200 million years ago - sexual reproduction, meisosis
...
500 million years ago - first virtibrates
...
330 million years ago - first trees and reptiles
...
165 million years ago - first mammals
...
50 million years ago - first real primates
14 million years ago - ramapithecus, first erect ancestor of man

101
May 26 2005, 05:24 PM
@ hyper

w00t.gif homo erectus. lol

No I pretty much knew but I was just asking what you thought. It is just a question no offense. no.gif

But don't you think that we could have also been created and evolved over time. Just as we do now? hmm.gif
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 05:29 PM
the universe like a terarrium?

or

the universe itself is onto alive?

or

the universe is a like a cell in a living thing?

possible. probable?

look at the simplest solution first, and if it fails, look to the next in complexity. our current knowledge allows for the simplest solution, for now.
101
May 26 2005, 05:39 PM
hmmmm? So you are open to the knowledge that it might have been created, therefore open to the knowledge that God is not a meanihead( bad father, tyrant in the sky) ? Just asking. All things are possible and will eventually be proven right or wrong...
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 05:45 PM
open to everything.

however, i also see the folly of the human construct!

the biblegod holds no more validity than the greek gods! all gods and religions are part of and serve the socio-cultural systems which they are a part of!

religions are fake, but indeed there may well be creative forces at work.

would it be co-incidence then that we made up relgions? or are religions like a shadow? religions not the real thing, but the best image we can make out given our constraints?

the bible and the biblegod taken as works of man and accepted to contain the errors of man are not the threat. it is the falsity of the absolutes people place in them that are the threat. the blindness to the errors is the threat. the concept of such a petty, vindictive, egomaniacal creature being worthy of praise the idiocy!
101
May 26 2005, 05:55 PM
Hyper let us say man made up religion..not God...but all the other stuff but not the Bible. I am speaking of organized religion- jw,mormons, and so on. These people believe in one thing and not another. Not embracing the Bible as a whole. have you read the bible personally to see if you think everything was just out of hatred or because of a purpose? this is much better than sitting in a church listening to the pastor preach about what he interprets to be true. I ask God to show me the true meaning of the Bible. To apply it to modern day times. Do you understand? It is religion that in itself can be bad not God.
zandore
May 26 2005, 06:08 PM
QUOTE(101 Posted Today @ 01:55 PM )
These people believe in one thing and not another. Not embracing the Bible as a whole.
Are you sure the Christian Bible is "The whole Bible"?
101
May 26 2005, 06:09 PM
Zandore I think it is. grin2.gif That is all I have to say about that. blush.gif
zandore
May 26 2005, 06:29 PM
QUOTE(101 @ May 26 2005, 02:09 PM)
Zandore I think it is.  grin2.gif That is all I have to say about that.  blush.gif
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Read
QUOTE(Nicea 325 AD )
It was at the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD that the Roman Sun-day or day of the Sun was declared to be the Christian Sabbath along with the worship of the sun being the official state religion.



It was at the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD that the emblem of the Sun god, the cross of light, was adopted as the emblem of Christianity.



It was at the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD that the date of Easter was established.



It was at the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD that rules were framed that defined the authority of bishops, thereby paving the way for a concentration of power in ecclesiastical hands.



It was at the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD that, by vote, Jesus was declared a god, not a mortal prophet. 



"...a year after the Council of Nicea, he (Constantine) sanctioned the confiscation and destruction of all works that challenged orthodox teachings - works by pagan authors that referred to Jesus, as well as works by "heretical" Christians. He also arranged for a fixed income to be allocated to the Church and installed the bishop of Rome in the Lateran Palace (It was not until 384 that the bishop of Rome called himself Pope for the first time). Then, in A.D. 331, he commissioned and financed new copies of the Bible. This constituted one of the single most decisive factors in the entire history of Christianity and provided Christian orthodoxy with an unparalleled opportunity.                                                                                In A.D. 303, a quarter of a century earlier, the pagan emperor Diocletian had undertaken to destroy all Christian writings that could be found. As a result Christian documents - especially in Rome - all but vanished. When Constantine commissioned new versions of these documents, it enabled the custodians of orthodoxy to revise, edit, and rewrite their material as they saw fit, in accordance with their tenets. It was at this point that most of the crucial alterations in the New Testament were probably made. The importance of Constantine's commission must not be underestimated. Of the five thousand extant early manuscript versions of the New Testament, not one predates the fourth century. The New Testament as it exists today is essentially a product of fourth-century editors and writers.

THE GREATEST PUZZLE
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 07:53 PM
@101:

look at it this way:
assume there is a universal consciousness (the UC)

now lets say there are lights of a different order cast upon the UC

each of these lights casts a different shadow.

now buddhism sees one of these shadows and operates from the image made.
now taoism sees one of these shadows and operates from the image made.
and as do all other "religions" past, present, and future.

they are all correct wrt the shadow they see, and they all seek the same ideal UC.

so as you can see, either all religions are correct, or they are all incorrect (there either is this UC or there is not this UC)
101
May 26 2005, 08:06 PM
@ Hyper

So this shadow you speak of is looked at by every religion and is made yet into something different,different ways of thinking and logic behind it. This depends on where you are from and the time you see the shadow. I wish to see this shadow you speak of so I candetermine for myself what I seek is right. But I know that what I think and feel is right to me. This is all that matters.

Religions are going to proven or disproved. It just takes time. Time tells us what the truth. In all reality one can say they believe in something and others may not. this does not mean you are right and i am wrong. it just means we all seek something out of life.

But with this pathist what is this about? Is it a religion or no. Or just a way of life. The way you choose to venture your path? I just wonder why people are so angry with what others say. Most of the time it is because they are trying to be a terrible person. This is wrong. Or can this be right since all things are right and wrong. Inadvertently. But whop knows.

Life is a journey taken by all of us.
hyperactive
May 26 2005, 08:24 PM
@101:

i mean that the UC casts many shadows, just like the shadow you cast at noon on a day in june is different from the shadow at 3pm in december is different than the shadow cast by the light in your bedroom.

each different shadow is seen by different religions, yet they all were cast by the same UC.

the UC represents the ideal of a creator class.

religions, as human constructs, are created and perish. they are the slowest and most resistant to change. they are part of the family of constructs that creates the artificial long term order society needs (not that we need the religious religion - we do need these long frequency constructs though. the question debated is not the need for these "stabalizing forces" in society, but how much power they should yield - if given too much we get the dark ages, if given too little we get anarchy)

pathist? happy.gif oops! did i or you make that typo first? i am a pacifist. not that pacifism defines my entire being. we need complementary forces in everything just as in nature and the universe. to be a pacifist i first had to be trained in the arts of combat. it is because i can kill, but don't, that i am consciously a pacifist.

as you may have already figured out i am influenced by many concepts. the greatest being nature, and what i can observe myself. i am also heavily influenced by my formal training in psych, math, and physics. i am influenced by my own study and parental exposure to many of the earth's religions (past and present), the strongest of which is buddhism (as a philosophy, not as a divine).

i learn from everything, for we are always (or should be) students. we should also always be teachers, advisors, and guides. we should always remember that the student must find their own path and carry their own load down that path. we must respect the diversity of individuality, and cherish the connectedness of one.

arrogance, pride, self-richousness are all the underpinnings of death. materialism and absolutism the paradise of the ignoramus. religion the home of the fool. all of man's constructs need to be seen from outside the parameters that define them to be understood, otherwise one lives in a bubble of idiocy.
101
May 27 2005, 01:20 PM
Hyper, I think I made the typo first. tongue.gif But this pacifism is beautiful. But I don't understand why you need to have the ability to kill if you choose not to. Maybe for defense? I am pretty sure this is why. Now I understand what you are saying about this UC. It has become clear. thumbsup.gif

Religion is important in my life. But I also try to think logically about other things. I am not blinded by my religion so to speak. I think some people just say well " A Christian scientist isn't penecostal so it can't be right" But why not. In all Christianity we have God. This is what should be our footstool. Not something like we think about science in our religion therefore it is wrong. I think if we all have salvation through christ it is right. That is my opinion.

But as a pacifist do you pray?

* hey we joined on the same day* blush.gif
hyperactive
May 27 2005, 01:45 PM
on choice and path:

imagine you are walking down a trail in the woods along a river.
you come to a branch in the trail. one branch goes over the river (via bridge) and the other continues along the side of the river.

now if the bridge is washed out, you can see that there are two choices, but crossing the river is not an option to you. the only option you have is to continue along the side of the river.

now if the bridge is in place, you can see the two choices, and are free to choose which path you will follow.

the same is with pacifism and the ability to kill. if not skilled in both paths, then i may be aware of the alternate but unable to execute the alternative.

think of it as the power of complementary forces. the same need for complementary forces are present everywhere. even in the religion vs science debate! we need objectivity, but we also need subjectivity. each serves its role, and we require the ability to perform both.

no, i don't pray because there is nothing to pray to or for (for me).

as life events being a product of randomness (contained within the parameters of previous events) i ultimately am the only one in control of those events changable that effect my outcome. (not all events are modifiable, but those beyond our control are beyond our control - a wise person once said worry only about those things you can change.) at an ideal state, there is no call for justice because a noble person is not only the only "judge" of his own actions but the harshest as well! there is no greater a burden than the judgement we carry of ourselves. society creates and uses laws and punishment because not all live by this type of code.
101
May 27 2005, 02:24 PM
I was once told something similiar to what you were told. My friend told me Don't sweat the small stuff and everything is small. We all have choices in our life to worry or be happy. Sometimes it seems logical to worry but isn't always the best. I feel like if we are content with ourselves(our spirit) then we can make better decisions. If people can become one like their spirit then they wouldn't need rules or laws to keep us in line. People just decide to live their lives as verman. No way I am going to subject myself to this kind of lifestyle.

My God is a fountain who never runs dry.
When I am thirsty I drink and when I am hurt he heals me.
I follow this path because it makes me happy as does yours. I am so glad
you have such strong morals and a belief system. It is something a lot of people cannot achieve.
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