That's the point though. Christians should not feel superior. More than any other religon, Christianity acknowledges that humans are sinful - theydo stuff against God - and there's no way they can redeem themselves.

So when one turns to Christ, all they are admitting is that they are sinners and there is no chance of redemption without God.

How can this lead to a "superior attitude"? WHen non-christians run around saying "I'm a relatively good person - I haven't killed anyone or anything".

Something to think about.....

it is group mentality: the old "i am with the in group, and your not" scenario. (and yes it happens in all groups )

I belong to a group. Thus according to your reasoning I follow this same mentality ie. I feel superior. I do not think this is the case.



This verse is contrary to being superior. Rather, Christians should be the opposite and be servants - those who want to be first must be the very last. Servants of all.

Until next time,

One thing that irritates me about xtians and i really don't mean to offend anyone here it's just a point i feel needs to be made.
when a christian tells a sinner that they're going to hell, think gods pleased by that
i'll give you a bigger example that makes it a little more obvious
After the recent Tsunami disaster i heard a lot of xtians saying that it was the work of god.
Now if you were god and hadn't had anything to do with the disaster how would you feel for being named responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people
you guys are all friends with people are you who constantly report you to the police for things you haven't done
and here's the real kicker
if you had a friend who made false allegations about your activities
Just how happy would you be to invite that person into your home.
every time someone tells me "Marduk you're gonna go to hell" they're actually saying "I'm gonna go to hell because i'm judging you and only God is allowed to do that"
Like i said before i don't believe in the christian theology or mythology at all
But i am at one with god
and i've never told anyone that they're gonna be judged by my god
cos he doesn't do that

I agree with you. One stereotype of the Christian religion (and many others) is that all Christians tell non believers they are going to hell if they don't believe. Yes, many Christians have said this to people, but in turn by them saying this they are judging others, and frankly its not their job to do this.

I stay away from this. I don't tell non-believers "you are going to hell." I know its not my place to judge others. I do, however, answer questions. If someone asks "If I don't believe in God will I go to hell?" I give them the answer that is in the Bible, and I'm sure that this is the reply that God would want me to give.

It is the job of a Christian to inform, not to condemn.

Simple......

TO NOT...confess to God that you are a sinner and have sinned against God.

TO NOT....... ask God to forgive you of your sins!

TO NOT....... turn your life over to God and accept him as your God and Lord and Savior.

TO NOT....invite God to come into your heart.


Now you Know!!!

groupthink occurs to varying degrees within groups. the more "extreme" a group is, the tighter the cohesion and the groupthink. more open, less demanding, and ad hoc groups don't show much or any such traits. a lot of it comes from the inter-intra group conflicts - the more the members of a group are NOT like those of another group, the closer they will bond.

however, even if you don't think you feel superior, you feel something from belonging to the group or else you would stop connecting yourself to it.

Yes, hyperactive it does, I have even been guilty of this myself. Infact over the time I have been at U.M. I have seen nearly(not all of them) every regular poster react that way toward a new member at some stage.

I'm very familiar with 'groupthink', except we refer to it as a 'bunker mentality'. It develops when a group (in my case Police Officers) start to think in terms of "us" and "them". If ya ain't one of us, you're one o' them.

It can also be broken down into sub groups (patrolmen Vs supervisors, uniforms V detectives), but even the 'subgroups' of "us" are preferable to any group of "them".

It's a good thing that it doesn't seem to affect me!

No one went to Heaven prior to Jesus, unless they were a prophet, singled out by God.

The Jewish religion has SHEOL, pergatory, and in excluded books, most of which were excluded because they named angels, and FALLEN angels which Judaism doesn't entirely accept, it talks in detail all about hell and Satan. Or Satanil, and he does indeed exist. It's his job to be an accusing angel, and no angel, fallen or Holy is against God. NO ONE. God Himself says 'there is NO ONE at war with Me' and that was AFTER Satanil's fall, of which there are several accounts. He hates humanity, not God.

Maybe we are limboing in heaven - RIGHT NOW

True, but by that reasoning then, you belong to a group as well. You may not attend a weekly meeting as Christians do, but you are among the growing number of people who adopt a "nothing's absolute" mentality. And subscribing to that structure.

By your own reasoning, this group mentality dumbs you down as well as it does me.

interesting.

its not a new conspiracy theory you know

Where did they go? and why do you think the policy changed?

God got religion I guess

i think there were a select few besides the prophets that made it to heaven before Christ roamed the earth.

wtf? i know, i am just saying. sheesh, i get flamed for the mildest of coments.

God exists outside of time (the "thousand years is a day and a day a thousand years" concept). Thus we cannot use human linear phrases such as "before" and "after" to describe when people will go to heaven.

Until next time,

but people exist in time, so what happened to people 10000 years ago?

lol , I was going to ask what happened the day before Jesus arived then, but I think that would be unproductive.
God exsists outside of time, but as Hyperactive said people do not. We are encredibly linear, there for our souls would also have to be linear, or at least the time that they past over would be measurable as before Christ exsisted. I can look back at yesterday and see that it isn't today and it wont be Tomorow because it has already happened. So where did there souls go? No where, some where or maybe they just bounced in and out of the constructs of time until after Jesus was born.

As i said, God lives outside of time. To us, Jesus died 2000 years ago (or near enough to that date). To God, well, time is irrelevant - at the same time Jesus died 2000 years ago, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The people of the Old Testament were saved through the blood of Jesus as much as we. That they hadn't heard of Jesus at the time is not important. God had specificlly given to them a covenant (a contract, if you will), that said that they would be His people, and He would be their God. This covenant however, did not save them anymore than doing good today will save us.

Regards,

Since its been raised a short list of Hells in other religions
Sheol(Judaism)
Earth itself(Hinduism, Buddhism and other religions who believe in reincarnation you get cursed to come back here over and over untill you straighten your life out and fly right)
Tartarus(Ancient Greece)
The Crocadile God who eats the wicked in Egyptian Mythology
Norse mythology also has some thing(not familiar enough to recall the specific name)
Truth is EVERY religion holds that the wicked are punished. Its a pure invention of those who don't believe in a just higher power to think that any one gets off scott free. Even in many branches of Buddhism and other eastern religions thare are places of torment.

all religions have the same core elements because they all serve the same purpose (just the names change).

religion is the extention of the basic needs of man to survive in a group structure. before man thought rationally, the anecdotal approach of religion worked well. as knowledge was gained, religion waned. it served its purpose, and when man is finally at a point of true understanding it will disappear completely (albeit it will go via the route of evolution, turning into more of a philosophical science prior to its final demise)

Here are a few "core" elements that made up Hinduism before it had Christian influence...

1) baby girls should be drowned in the Ganges so they can be reincarnated as boys

2) surviving widows should be cremated alive with their deceased husbands

3) the gross discrimination and prejudice of the Hindu caste system should be enforced

4)it is better not to relieve human suffering because that would be interfering with people’s karma.

and what of those "core" elements of christianity that saw the segregation of people, the discrimination of women, the slaughter of non-christians/non-believers?

amazing how again we see the remarkable similarities of religion in how they are so good at discrimination, oppression, intolorance,...... what mighty good qualities to look for in a belief structure!

where does it say this?

does it say anywhere in the bible to do any of the things mentioned above?

cov·e·nant
n.

1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law.
1. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
2. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race
Interesting, but I am confused. You say that God gave all the people this covenant that we would all be saved through the blood of Christ but then you say that it isn't going to do anyone any good. Why is that?

i can't quote scripture to say where it exactly says so, but those that supposedly are learned of the bible used the bible to justify those actions... so their interpretation is what speaks here.

It does say.. "thou shall not suffer a witch to live," does it not? King James added it to help the cause. And it's religous intolerance.
There have been many deaths in the name of the so called one true religion and most of it has been very squarly aimed at Woman. Particularly after the last uprising in 1776 in Scotland. After most of Scotlands males where dead a lot of woman where left homeless and a burden on the English. Allthough to be completely honest after this date no witches where burnt, just heretics and mainly of the female persuasion.

No actual statistics are available on the amount of deaths caused by the witch trials and inquisitions but in one case over 600 people were murderd in a little over 3 months. That could leave the Catholic and later Prodestant churches with a very high body count after the several centuries of persecution.

i admit in the bible it may hint at male chauvinism. but nowhere is any other of the above things in the teachings of the bible.

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." – genesis 3:16 NIV

ya, pretty subtle

it also "hints" at mass murders and condoning slaves

do you even know the story behind this? eve just ate from the tree of knowledge. if i were god, i would have been pissed too.

she ate it first, then gave it to man. so therefore she should be over ruled by him.

where?

EDIT// i meant tree of knowledge. not tree of life.

For how long? Why is every woman, even those who have turned to God and repented for their sins still punished?

And have you got the stories behind all of your claims against Hinduism? Like this This a little twisted in the way you referenced it but here is the reasoning behind it.

I knew a familly who suffered several terrible and tragic losses, I tried to help in the way I saw best, but nothing cold be done. This familly treated everyone around them with contempt, anyone who worked for them or was not what they considered worthy was told in these exact terms that they where useless and idiots.

Do you think that these people perhaps had a karmic lesson to learn about how important people really are, because I do. Interfering in there lesson wouldn't have helped them at all. And with hinduism the picture is far larger it spands eternity and not just one life time.

i don't know.

but what i do know is that woman has always been able to seduce/tempt man.

man can do the same to a woman, but has a much more difficult time in doing so.

the woman seduced adam to eat the fruit. from that time on, she has retained much of her abilities. seduction being a big one.

no, i wasnt referring to all hinduists, but millions.

but i will look for something on it.

I still pin the blame on god for that story. He lied to adam and eve about the true nature of the fruit. Then according to which version of the bilbe you read... god set them up with the snake...

If he "knew" that eve was going to do that.. then why bother lie about the tree? It's his own fault.

Yes the bible has allways claimed that Woman have certain powers and that this makes them one of the pathways to sin. And that we should be eternally punished aswell as being thankful for the honour bestowed upon us by the all loving all merciful God.

I believe the pagan way is far more sensible. We need each other, I am not better than any man and I am not less than any man but I cannot survive without a Man.

Edit for Silver Cougar..

Joan Osbourne has a song called Lumina, you would love it very pagan, an Ode to the Goddess if you will.
any way quote from song:
Eve took the fruit, Eve bit the fruit. Juice ran down her chin.
Babies will put things in their mouths, never heard of sin.

Yeah.. we seduce and tempt men.... you know why? Because half the time that's what we need to do to get anywhere with you guys. If a man allows himself to be tempted by a woman.. it's his own damned fault.

lie about the tree? who told you this?

Exactly. Unless you're some single cell, or simple form of life... all life needs female and male.

And that's what old and modern paganism followed. Not all.. but afew. Most did circumed to the male ego...

16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this admonition, "You may eat indeed of all the trees in the garden.
17 Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die."

Gen. 3:1 - The serpent was the most subtle of all the wild beasts that Yahweh God had made. It asked the woman, "Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?"
2 The woman answered the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden.
3 "But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, 'You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "No! You will not die!
5 "God knows in fact that on the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil."

God says "Don't eat! You'll die!" Snake says "Naa, you eat from it and you'll know good and evil!"

What happened? They ate... and did they die? Uhm nope... so yeah.. God lied to them. The snake told the truth..

So here we have, a god who's now a known lier... a snake who can.. not only talk (a common shamanistic tribal trait.. animals that can talk...) that tells the truth... two humans that decide they would rather have the truth and not some lie...

Gee I donno.. seems like the woman was smart not sinful... she chose truth over a lie...

And when confronted... they both make the cop out "Woman did it!" .... "Snake said it's ok!" .... Oh foolish foolish gods and humanity... and the poor snake... punished...

Edit; removed redundant quote. Let's try to refrain from copying the entire text of the message that sits 'directly' above your response, it's unnecessary and a waste of space.

and to this day "blame the woman" is so common... well at least we know its roots

they did die. spiritually. by doing what they did, they basically sold their souls.

no, the serpent deceived them. the serpent is the one that lied.

think about it, why else would the serpent care to get eve to eat the fruit?

i think you have things backwards. god told them "don't eat from the tree of knowledge, for you will surely die."

God meant spiritually.

again, you have things backwards, she chose the lie and not the truth.

they both ate indeed. however, eve was the first to ever do so in all of history.

and i hate snakes anyway.

wait wait.. God says "If you eat from this tree.. you will die." The snake says "Eat from this tree... and you'll know good and evil"

They ate.. and they learned good and evil... and didn't die... and how do you know he ment spiritually? That just says to me that you want to think that he ment it that way. No where does god say "If you eart this, you'll die spiritually" Just flat out.. die.


Who lied?

exactly.

Spiritually dead is to be separated from God. Notice how after they ate the fruit he banished them from the garden.

"After he drove them out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back in forth to gaurd the way of the tree of life." (Genesis 4:14)

You can learn more about this in Ephesians 2:1 it talks about being made alive in christ. Remember there are two types of death, spirituality and physically. You can be dead spiritually, but redeeme yourself later. Have you ever heard the term "born again christian?" or " made alive in christ again?"

Does this mean that you were born again physically? or made alive again, physically? no, its referring to spiritually.

Here is Ephesians 2:1-10, notice Ephesians 2:5

Made alive in Christ

EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
EPH 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
EPH 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
EPH 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
EPH 2:6 [B]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
EPH 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
EPH 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The serpent, or "Satan."

Here is the NIV version. The one above is from the KJV. What version are you using exactly? I noticed its from neither.

NIV

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his
grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9not by works, so that no one can boast.
10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

No wait SC, one God TOLD Adam about his free will, the right and wrong paths etc. Adam, according to one story lied to Eve. He told her that if she went NEAR the tree she'd die. The serpent pushed her onto the tree and said 'see, you didn't die, why don't you eat the fruit', so she ate the fruit, then gave it to Adam, etc. it was a TEST of free will. The did indeed die. Adam and Eve were made a second ANGEL, they were imoortal and death would never have touched them. What they got from the tree was mortality, or death. As a result of that they DID indeed die on the DAY they ate from the tree. In God's years. One day to God is 1000 human/Earth years, and Adam died something like 70 years off being 1000, therefore, it was one day. It was God talking, so Hewas talking in HIS timing, Earth's timing didn't even exist then, because Eden wasn't on Earth. It was elsewhere in space, the Heavens.

Satan through his hatred for humanity, because he refused to bow down to Adam, and was kicked out for it, was fueled into this temptation, but technically, he was doing his job, as accusing angel, to test, tempt and accuse Adam and Eve, but he had an ulterior motive.

God created man and woman equal, where the idea that God downed woman is is beyond me, besides in the minds of men who twisted it. That's man's doing, not God's.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power...." (Revelation 20:6)

They ate of the tree and in an eyeblink of God's time they died. Some thing to realize(aside from the more obvious point that God's conception of time has nothing to do with ours) is that before they broke God's law they could not die. They lived in a world where they didn't know pain, suffering or death and by proving that man can not obey God even in paradise they let all of these things in. To use a mythological metaphor they opened pandoras box.