So I can lead a thoroughly horrendous life, breaking all ten commandments, murdering, raping, and ignoring 'do not feed the animal' signs, but upon my deathbed, if I am 'heartily sorrowful' for my misdeeds, I get a ticket on the 'up' elevator.

Note to self- write bible and make JMPD1 the god

xcept for the murdering and raping thing....
[right][snapback]612217[/snapback][/right]

So I can lead a thoroughly horrendous life, breaking all ten commandments, murdering, raping, and ignoring 'do not feed the animal' signs, but upon my deathbed, if I am 'heartily sorrowful' for my misdeeds, I get a ticket on the 'up' elevator.

Sounds like a deal to me.
[right][snapback]612215[/snapback][/right]

Which I have a hard time comprehending.

If I lead an exemplary life, believing in my god, and church and doing good things, living by the teachings of the book, etc, I have the same chance of gaining heaven as someone similiar to the one I described above.

As long as the person is repenting, he can get away with murder (literally!) in this world and receive his reward in the next.  So what is the point of following the 'rules'?

It makes no sense to me, even with the provision of purgatory, or other interim punishment.
[right][snapback]612279[/snapback][/right]

Religions always say if u do bad things in this life.When u die will go to "HEll" for punishment.

So what condition is required for the person to go to "Hell"


If let's say a couple get marriage and then divorce but left a child with broken family.This 2 person then find another love partner and got marriage and have children.So they are happy.But for the first child ,he/she was hurt by his or her both parents.The child feels so sad and worst of all is that he/she feels no love from the both parents.Parent happy child sad Then child do no know which house to go for the love and was left in between of broken heart for both parents.

These 2 parents if they die will they go to "Hell" as they have create this bad thing to this first child?

Another scene is if u are a leader in a country but to defence and protect ur country people.U got to lead ur country people to war.Many innocent people die.Will the leader when die go to "Hell"?

So in what "Condition" is justifice for the person to go to "Hell"

Or maybe it's hard to go to "HEll"
[right][snapback]611788[/snapback][/right]

Which I have a hard time comprehending.

If I lead an exemplary life, believing in my god, and church and doing good things, living by the teachings of the book, etc, I have the same chance of gaining heaven as someone similiar to the one I described above.

As long as the person is repenting, he can get away with murder (literally!) in this world and receive his reward in the next.  So what is the point of following the 'rules'?

It makes no sense to me, even with the provision of purgatory, or other interim punishment.
[right][snapback]612279[/snapback][/right]

So I can lead a thoroughly horrendous life, breaking all ten commandments, murdering, raping, and ignoring 'do not feed the animal' signs, but upon my deathbed, if I am 'heartily sorrowful' for my misdeeds, I get a ticket on the 'up' elevator.

Sounds like a deal to me.
[right][snapback]612215[/snapback][/right]

Romans 6 (21st Century King James Version)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

Copyright © 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.

Romans 6

  1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

 
  2God forbid! How shall we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 
  3Know ye not that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?

 
  4Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 
  5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, so we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

 
  6knowing this: that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 
  7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 
  8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

 
  9knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over Him.

 
  10For in that He died, He died unto sin once; but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.

 
  11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 
  12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

 
  13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 
  14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 
  15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!

 
  16Know ye not that to whomever ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye become whom ye obey, whether of sin which leads unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 
  17But God be thanked that though ye were the servants of sin, now ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 
  18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 
  19I speak in the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh. For as ye have yielded your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now yield your members as servants to righteousness unto holiness.

 
  20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

 
  21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

 
  22But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.

 
  23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  The catch was, you REALLY had to want to repent.
[right][snapback]613454[/snapback][/right]

Who goes to Hell?  well depends on who you ask.  The basic biblical answer is that every single person has earned themselves a one way ticket to Hell.  Consider the post made about living a good and spiritual life compared to a murderer.  Lets consider.  Have you ever lied(even about some thing little), taken some thing that didn't belong to you(even as a kid to make a point or because you were mad at a sibling), used God's name in vain(oh God, Jesus H Christ, etc) or a personal fave had lustful thoughts about some one who wasn't your wife?  We could keep going for hours but I think most people have done at least one of those.  If so by biblical tradition you've sinned.  God doesn't have a yard stick saying ok you were 33.3% bad so you're going to heaven but oh this person is 51% bad so he's gonna burn.  Sin is sin and an affront to God no matter what it is.  The point(and the main difference between Christianity and for example Hinduism) is that none of it matters.  As long as you admit your a screw up, seek true forgiveness from God, and repent of your sins thats it.  Jesus paid the price for sin so no one else has to. 

Think about it for a minute a lot of people have this notion of a scale of damnation.  That little sins aren't as bad as big sins.  Yet let me ask you this.  Did Jack the Ripper go to Heaven(in your oppinion)?  If so but he murdered 5 or 6 women in an incredibly sadistic way(not at war either) why was his multiple violations of one of the 10 commandments not so bad?  On the other hand if he went to Hell why is his paltry 5 or 6 murders any where near as bad as the millions of people whose blood stains Hitlers hands.  As bad as Jack was he wasn't as bad as Hitler.  As bad as Hitler was he wasn't as bad Satan himself who has been tempting people to commit every sin under the sun since the dawn of creation and who the bible says was a liar and a murderer from the start.  Do you see what I'm getting at.  Creating a sliding scale inevitably gets a bit silly becuase no matter how bad a given human is odds are some one was a lot worse. 

Does this mean good deeds are unimportant?  Absolutely not.  The bible does say it is by our faith not our good deeds that we are saved.  Yet it also says that faith with out works is dead.  Any person who claims to follow Jesus who still lies, cheats and steals  after wards has no true faith.  The two are mutualy  exclusive.  You can't put your faith in a God who told you to love thy neighbor as thyself and then go around slaughtering your neighbors(yes this means that the Inquisitors and Crusaders had no true faith).  You want an idea of a real man of faith I'd tell you to look at Martin Luther King Jr.  He was a devout Christian and in point of fact a reverend.  He lead his own war against oppression and hatred fueled by the very strength of his faith(look at how often in his speeches he talks about God).  Was he a perfect man?  I doubt it very much.  I'm sure like most people he made his mistakes but he kept his faith strong and did works for God and I have no doubt earned himself a just reward.  For a less blatently Christian example I'd point to Gandhi.  Gandhi himself was a Hindu but he also considered Jesus to be God(not unusual because of the unusual nature of hinduism).  He made a number of statements showing a respect for Christ's teachings(ie if we all lived by the sermon on the mount the world would be a happier place), and also fought a war against hatred and oppression allowing his faith to drive him.

There are billions of other examples.  The men who rushed the hijackers causing a plane to crash in PA instead of hitting its target in DC certainly come to mind.  Taped phone recordings even record at least one praying before he stood up to defend his country against men determined to commit mass murder.  Every day fire men and police officers put there own lives at risk to save people they've never met some of whom won't even thank them for doing it.  NOt all of these people but many do it precisely because they have faith in God.  Not because(as so many non christians seem to think) they think such acts wil buy there way into heaven but because it is what Jesus asked of us.  He wanted those who would follow him to pick up a cross and do it not just talk about it.
[right][snapback]613492[/snapback][/right]

Thank you! For I beleive so to. You have got to wanna live for Jesus Christ and pick up your cross and carry it the way he did!
[right][snapback]613688[/snapback][/right]

lol
i loved the bit that satan has been tempting man since the dawn of creation, perhaps you'll be able to tell me why it is then that he isn't mentioned by name in Genesis.
was it a secret. He doesn't make an appearence as a character until Christianity is an established religion in about 400 CE
There is only one way of going to hell
you have to be christian
and you have to think you deserve it
There isn't a hell or anything comparable in many other religions
in a lot of the earlier original religions hell if there was one was the planet earth
because they didn't have a hell or anything like it
just heaven and earth
Instead of having a hell about 75 % of the earths religions have reincarnation instead,
though of course in christianity thats only reserved for Jesus.
So we can say for sure that he never went to hell
if he existed at all
[right][snapback]613978[/snapback][/right]

Does he need to be mentioned by name?

Genesis 3:1 clearly mentions him as "the serpent". Just because there's no name given does not mean to say that he does not exist.
[right][snapback]613983[/snapback][/right]

so you're saying that the most factual document that christianity draws on doesn't reveal satans name until the new testament
you know why that is right ?
because satan is a hebrew word that means adversary,
And genesis draws upon judasitic tradition
and the jews don't have a satan
of course i'm sure you'd rather go with your answer that for some unexplained reason nobody who knew satans name wrote it into the early books for personal reasons
dry that one out and you can fertilise the lawn with it
God doesn't know satans name ?
is he being fallible again then
[right][snapback]613999[/snapback][/right]

Didn't we already have this conversation in a different thread?
[right][snapback]614001[/snapback][/right]

Satan's name, an an angel, and in Judaic law is Satanail. Other's consider Azazel akin to satan. They did indeed exist in Judaism. And, may I also remind you that there are TWO types of Judaism, orthodox and liberal.
[right][snapback]615669[/snapback][/right]

There is no proof that hell exists so I can't say that it exists, but let's be hypothetical...

I think the problem is that many religious people have condition that are met to go to Heaven, instead of the other way around. It shouldn't be about what you do to get into Heaven, but what you do to get into hell. Life is the most valuable gift...so, in this manner, people who commit crimes that severely infringe upon or take away the lives of others should go to "hell," whereas those who have not committed these crimes - regardless of other actions - by default go to Heaven. If I believe in Heaven and Hell, this is probably how I'd go about defining my beliefs.
[right][snapback]616430[/snapback][/right]

Like I've said elsewhere, I hope that man one day outgrows his need to depend on religion, and learns to face his world on his own two feet.

THERE IS no hell in jewish religion i beleive you could go to heaven or spend eternity in limbo(Between heaven and hell)
[right][snapback]617641[/snapback][/right]

convert-proof Posted Today, 03:07 AM
  QUOTE(BAB414 @ May 12 2005, 03:01 AM)
THERE IS no hell in jewish religion i beleive you could go to heaven or spend eternity in limbo(Between heaven and hell)
what is "limbo" like?

Between heaven and hell...maybe its earth limbo is living...hell is dying...heaven is forever
[right][snapback]617658[/snapback][/right]

are and you...

Don't you dare tell someone to use correct grammar when you can't even do so yourself.
[right][snapback]617683[/snapback][/right]