Some people believe that there is a universal subconscious as shown in experiments where hundreds of peolpe meditate and the crime rate goes down for the day. Now, as a conservative pessimist I believe that the studies were completely meaningless because of the infinite number of factors that affect a person's actions. Well anyway, my counter experiment would be to have tons of people make themselves angry through meditation (and not leave the confines of the meditation room) and see if crime rate goes up. I'm sure that if there is such a thing as the universal subconscious that it can be affected by anger as well as peace. Another question to that experiement, if it is the universal subconscious why does it only affect the people within a small area of the meditation area (relatively speaking Washington D.C., which I believe was where the experiment was held though I am not sure, compared to the earth is small)?
Thanks in advance.
Full Version: Universal Subconscious
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Metaphysics, Psychology & Psychic Phenomena
Honestly, I think its untrue.
If it were true, the more people in the city, the more meditation/meditators you would need.
Welcome to UM
If it were true, the more people in the city, the more meditation/meditators you would need.
Welcome to UM
I doubt it. If that were true, then imagine everybody tugging on a big rubber saucer, it will be stretched and break. There are simply to many emocions.
Erm... kinda missed the point, but yea. What I was saying is that meditators in Washington D.C. would affect the whole world because it is the universal subconscious.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 11 2005, 02:22 AM)
Erm... kinda missed the point, but yea. What I was saying is that meditators in Washington D.C. would affect the whole world because it is the universal subconscious.
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did i miss the point? *raises eyebrow*
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:22 PM)
Erm... kinda missed the point, but yea. What I was saying is that meditators in Washington D.C. would affect the whole world because it is the universal subconscious.
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QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 10 2005, 08:15 PM)
If it were true, the more people in the city, the more meditation/meditators you would need.
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Lets say this theory is true. How would this group of meditators be able to calm the entire earth?
You have 100 people or so that would help calm a given amount of people.
Therefore, the more people you have, the more meditators you need. (If this would be proven to work.)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 11 2005, 02:15 AM)
Honestly, I think its untrue.
If it were true, the more people in the city, the more meditation/meditators you would need.
Welcome to UM
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If it were true, the more people in the city, the more meditation/meditators you would need.
Welcome to UM
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You said that a large city would requre more meditators than a small city; this is not the case, because a universal subconscious affects all human beings in the consciousness. Therefore, the same amount of meditators will have the same affect on a large city as on a small city or a rural village. Indeed, you did miss the point by saying that meditators would have an affect on a % of the population when in reality they could only have an affect on the whole population.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 11 2005, 02:33 AM)
Lets say this theory is true. How would this group of meditators be able to calm the entire earth?
You have 100 people or so that would help calm a given amount of people.
Therefore, the more people you have, the more meditators you need. (If this would be proven to work.)
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You have 100 people or so that would help calm a given amount of people.
Therefore, the more people you have, the more meditators you need. (If this would be proven to work.)
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Thats my point... 100 people cannot calm a given amount of people because the 100 people affect the WHOLE consciousness, not just a part of the consciousness.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:40 PM)
You said that a large city would requre more meditators than a small city; this is not the case, because a universal subconscious affects all human beings in the consciousness. Therefore, the same amount of meditators will have the same affect on a large city as on a small city or a rural village. Indeed, you did miss the point by saying that meditators would have an affect on a % of the population when in reality they could only have an affect on the whole population.
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Ok, so you are saying that one person could do this to the entire world.
Ahh, I see now.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 11 2005, 02:43 AM)
Ok, so you are saying that one person could do this to the entire world.
Ahh, I see now.
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thats what the universal subconscious is, meditators having an affect on everyone.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:42 PM)
Thats my point... 100 people cannot calm a given amount of people because the 100 people affect the WHOLE consciousness, not just a part of the consciousness.
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So, tell me, what makes these people so special that they can control the entire "universal subconsciousness?"
Do you have to get a license for it, and only the best are titled "Universal Subconscious Pratitioner?"
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 11 2005, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:40 PM)
You said that a large city would requre more meditators than a small city; this is not the case, because a universal subconscious affects all human beings in the consciousness. Therefore, the same amount of meditators will have the same affect on a large city as on a small city or a rural village. Indeed, you did miss the point by saying that meditators would have an affect on a % of the population when in reality they could only have an affect on the whole population.
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Ok, so you are saying that one person could do this to the entire world.
Ahh, I see now.
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so i suppose that is how ConservativePessimist explains those days where there isn't much crime, someboyd in the world was meditating...so one person meditating, would affect the entire world less then if two people meditating. right?
Let me start by saying you couldn't be more wrong.
Okay... Five people meditating in Russia have the same affect on everyone in the world as five people meditating in Beirut. However, ten people meditating in China have a greater affect on the consciousness than five people meditating in the United States. I don't even know where you got your example from.
Okay so, any meditating affects the universal subconscious, not just specific individuals, so praying in China should have the same affect in China as in anywhere in the world.
Likewise, the more people medidating world wide the stronger the affect on the universal subconscious.
Again, where did you get your example from?
Okay... Five people meditating in Russia have the same affect on everyone in the world as five people meditating in Beirut. However, ten people meditating in China have a greater affect on the consciousness than five people meditating in the United States. I don't even know where you got your example from.
Okay so, any meditating affects the universal subconscious, not just specific individuals, so praying in China should have the same affect in China as in anywhere in the world.
Likewise, the more people medidating world wide the stronger the affect on the universal subconscious.
Again, where did you get your example from?
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:54 PM)
Let me start by saying you couldn't be more wrong.
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If anything its wrong, its this theory.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:54 PM)
Okay... Five people meditating in Russia have the same affect on everyone in the world as five people meditating in Beirut. However, ten people meditating in China have a greater affect on the consciousness than five people meditating in the United States. I don't even know where you got your example from.
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See, I think it takes more people to affect the surrounding area.
If you have more people in area 1, than in area 2, then you need more meditators in area 1. Hence, there are more people.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:54 PM)
Again, where did you get your example from?
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QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 10 2005, 08:03 PM)
Another question to that experiement, if it is the universal subconscious why does it only affect the people within a small area of the meditation area (relatively speaking Washington D.C., which I believe was where the experiment was held though I am not sure, compared to the earth is small)?
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You asked a question. I told you what I thought.
hehe... algamut that last reply wasn't to you, it was to convert-proof . Sorry, I'll adress my posts next time.
. Sorry, I'll adress my posts next time.
Oops, my bad.
To: Amalgamut
Exactly the fallacy in the whole arguement and study of the universal subconscious! The meditators can't control the entire subconscious, only a small portion. This implies that either the universal subconscious isn't as universal as was once thought or the theory is entirely meaningless. I hold that the latter is true.
I see that you may believe that people can affect parts of the subconscious, which may be possible (sectional subconscious or what have you) and although that is a possibility I would like to see my initial reverse study (angering up a city) done.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 11 2005, 02:48 AM)
So, tell me, what makes these people so special that they can control the entire "universal subconsciousness?"
Do you have to get a license for it, and only the best are titled "Universal Subconscious Pratitioner?"
See, I think it takes more people to affect the surrounding area.
If you have more people in area 1, than in area 2, then you need more meditators in area 1. Hence, there are more people.
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Do you have to get a license for it, and only the best are titled "Universal Subconscious Pratitioner?"
See, I think it takes more people to affect the surrounding area.
If you have more people in area 1, than in area 2, then you need more meditators in area 1. Hence, there are more people.
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Exactly the fallacy in the whole arguement and study of the universal subconscious! The meditators can't control the entire subconscious, only a small portion. This implies that either the universal subconscious isn't as universal as was once thought or the theory is entirely meaningless. I hold that the latter is true.
I see that you may believe that people can affect parts of the subconscious, which may be possible (sectional subconscious or what have you) and although that is a possibility I would like to see my initial reverse study (angering up a city) done.
Actually, there are many different hypothesis concerning a universal subconscious.
One that I've heard that may refer to your questions & comments is the idea that most people aren't as "in tune" so to speak with this "Universal subconscious" and that if enough people focus on the same thing during a group meditation, that they would affect these people by making the subconscious take more command than the conscious in those people.
I'm not sure if I explained it clearly enough, but that is one of the concepts with which I am familiar (not saying I agree or disagree, as I really have no opinion at this time).
One that I've heard that may refer to your questions & comments is the idea that most people aren't as "in tune" so to speak with this "Universal subconscious" and that if enough people focus on the same thing during a group meditation, that they would affect these people by making the subconscious take more command than the conscious in those people.
I'm not sure if I explained it clearly enough, but that is one of the concepts with which I am familiar (not saying I agree or disagree, as I really have no opinion at this time).
QUOTE(sharkster @ May 11 2005, 08:37 PM)
I'm not sure if I explained it clearly enough, but that is one of the concepts with which I am familiar (not saying I agree or disagree, as I really have no opinion at this time).
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I understood what you meant, but I don't like the idea that the universal subconscious has distance limitations. If it is "universal" why is it not shared by everyone (the study had an area of affect, it didn't affect everyone)? But it seems to me that the study made people into radio towers of subconscious, which seems quite silly.
Actualy you need at least 1% of the population to make change in that immediate area. Washington D.C. is a great example of that, like someone already mentioned.
http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/
Cops laughed at the idea. But after the crime rate droped it was supported.
But you cant possibly expect 1% in washington to change everyone on the planet. But think what would happen if 1% of everyone on the planet started meditating regularly.
But look at what's on tv every day! Violence, sex, drama, crime... Do you realy think that it has no effect on the subconciosness? The brain doesnt know whats real and not. Ex. You look at a lamp, u close your eyes and imagine that same lamp in your mind. The same parts of your brain activate. So when you'r watching someone die or get beaten up on tv, in alot of ways its not different then seeing it in real life. And that, my friends, has a major impact on the group counciosness. What percentage of the worldwide population watches TV everyday? And whats the weekly average?
http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/
Cops laughed at the idea. But after the crime rate droped it was supported.
But you cant possibly expect 1% in washington to change everyone on the planet. But think what would happen if 1% of everyone on the planet started meditating regularly.
But look at what's on tv every day! Violence, sex, drama, crime... Do you realy think that it has no effect on the subconciosness? The brain doesnt know whats real and not. Ex. You look at a lamp, u close your eyes and imagine that same lamp in your mind. The same parts of your brain activate. So when you'r watching someone die or get beaten up on tv, in alot of ways its not different then seeing it in real life. And that, my friends, has a major impact on the group counciosness. What percentage of the worldwide population watches TV everyday? And whats the weekly average?
About the crime rate dropping...
Did they do only one test?
Did they do only one test?
First of all, people watching TV has nothing to do with the universal subconscious.
All i'm saying is, why should meditating have an effect on people? Television has a clear effect on people because people SEE television. Being effected by meditation is you being effected on by an outside force without ever knowing that the outside force was effecting you, or knowing that there was an outside force.
All i'm saying is, why should meditating have an effect on people? Television has a clear effect on people because people SEE television. Being effected by meditation is you being effected on by an outside force without ever knowing that the outside force was effecting you, or knowing that there was an outside force.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 26 2005, 10:40 PM)
First of all, people watching TV has nothing to do with the universal subconscious.
All i'm saying is, why should meditating have an effect on people? Television has a clear effect on people because people SEE television. Being effected by meditation is you being effected on by an outside force without ever knowing that the outside force was effecting you, or knowing that there was an outside force.
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All i'm saying is, why should meditating have an effect on people? Television has a clear effect on people because people SEE television. Being effected by meditation is you being effected on by an outside force without ever knowing that the outside force was effecting you, or knowing that there was an outside force.
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Everything we do is reflected in our subonscious. Our concious doesnt realize it, but the two couldnt be more different. If you realy think about it, on the deepest levels of understanding, we are the immagination of our subconcious. When we try to change something about ourselves, something major, its hard. Thats why so many fail, because they try to change on the surface, when the real issue has its roots deep in the subconciousness. It can be something in the childhood that you've long forgotten, but its tearing you up on the inside, making you angry, untill you loose controll.
Universal subconsciousness, is just that same thing, only on a much larger scale. And truth of the matter is, we as individuals are much more effected by it, then it is by us. Because we only effect the ones around us. But dont get me wrong, a strong ripple effect is possible to bring upon a great change, but today is unlikely.
How do you think some people are able to walk on fire/glass, piece themselves with swords and not bleed?? They realize that this world is only an illution created by our minds!
QUOTE(unknown @ May 27 2005, 06:05 PM)
Everything we do is reflected in our subonscious. Our concious doesnt realize it, but the two couldnt be more different. If you realy think about it, on the deepest levels of understanding, we are the immagination of our subconcious. When we try to change something about ourselves, something major, its hard. Thats why so many fail, because they try to change on the surface, when the real issue has its roots deep in the subconciousness. It can be something in the childhood that you've long forgotten, but its tearing you up on the inside, making you angry, untill you loose controll.
Universal subconsciousness, is just that same thing, only on a much larger scale. And truth of the matter is, we as individuals are much more effected by it, then it is by us. Because we only effect the ones around us. But dont get me wrong, a strong ripple effect is possible to bring upon a great change, but today is unlikely.
How do you think some people are able to walk on fire/glass, piece themselves with swords and not bleed?? They realize that this world is only an illution created by our minds!
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Universal subconsciousness, is just that same thing, only on a much larger scale. And truth of the matter is, we as individuals are much more effected by it, then it is by us. Because we only effect the ones around us. But dont get me wrong, a strong ripple effect is possible to bring upon a great change, but today is unlikely.
How do you think some people are able to walk on fire/glass, piece themselves with swords and not bleed?? They realize that this world is only an illution created by our minds!
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Have you ever seen anyone cut off their own head and live? Of course not, because the world is not an illusion created by our minds. I have heard of people who pierce themselves with swords and not bleed, but I don't believe that this is because they believe that the world is an illusion. For example, why shouldn't I see someone who pierces themself bleed? I do not believe the world is an illusion (as they do), so I should see blood coming from the stabs where they don't. I admit, the mind has much more control over the body than anyone can imagine, but this isn't a supernatural phenomenon. Rather it is an extroardinary feat of patience, concentration, and confidence.
QUOTE(ConservativePessimist @ May 31 2005, 11:43 PM)
but I don't believe that this is because they believe that the world is an illusion. For example, why shouldn't I see someone who pierces themself bleed? I do not believe the world is an illusion (as they do)
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You are contradicting yourself, or I'm misunderstanding. You are saying that if you see one of these 'shows' the guys pierces himself and doesnt bleed, you will see him bleed? That would mean that every one of us would literaly see different things, just when walking down the street.
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