Personally if I think something comes naturally to you, then it isn't wrong. I'm big on nature.

when you deny what you are, you deny everything.

I understand what you are saying, but there must be limits placed on our expressions of "natural" desires.

For example, if my "natural desire" was to have sex with minor children, than it should be considered "wrong". I know you are not suggesting otherwise, I'm simply expanding on your comment to make a point.

I really believe you are correct. The most important aspect in our life, in my humble opinion, is to be honest with ourselves.

Point taken. Then again it's not natural for children to have sex. Not until they have matured anyway. You know what I mean.

That's not true. Prove it. It's not forbidden in Native American religions or societies, or Buddhism.

I've got a question for all those that take everything from the Bible as the word of God. Did God write those words or did man? Did God stop talking to humans in the modern age? How can you be sure what has been written in the Bible wasn't purely for dogma purposes or somebody's own bigotry?

You know, you brought-up an issue that has bugged me for a long time, so maybe you can assist in this:

In Nature, a human reaches full sexual ability by, oh, what is it, 12 or 13 years old.
Of special importance is that a young girl is able to have babies at about that age.
OK, fine, we all understand that.

Now, if Nature has created the mechanisms of pro-creation to be fully functional at that age, including the very strong hormonal "impulse" drives of that person, I would suppose that Nature is giving a green light.
The LAW, in the United States anyway, gives a red light until 16, 17 or 18 depending on the State.
Speaking as an "intellectual" and certainly NOT a pedophile, I find it somewhat bizarre that Nature encourages and enables pro-creation at 12-13 years old but that the LAW forbids it.
Is this making any sense? It's kind of like saying that Nature wants me to defecate each day, but that the LAW could say I can only do it once a week.

I was not aware that the Native American religions or that of Buddhism endorses or neutrally tolerates homosexuality in their Doctrines. If that is true I stand corrected with respect to those religions.

Wolf, I personally believe that every major religion, and perhaps some minor one's, have the "Word of God" within their teachings regardless of the "other" differences.

Word of God or Word of man, it really makes little difference. Religions follow doctrines because that is the nature of faith. I think if you start questioning the word of religio then you are on very shakey ground.

I'm not religious myself and I'm not homosexual. However, i don't see why there is such a huge taboo over the subject - there are worse things out there than to love someone else.

@palladin:

the evolution of human social structures, economics, etc has moved at an evelavted pace far beyond our own biological evolution.

(ok... but lets not turn this thread into a discussion on the various different fields/aspects/concepts of evolution....)

Why not? It seems that all the conversations always end up that way; at least in some form or another..

Shall we then assume that societal structure has mitigating dominance over Nature?
Who are "we" that changes Nature itself?
I would posit that that is a dangerous stance.

the modern world has clearly shown a preference for man's structural dominance over nature.

it certianly can be a dangerous stance. especially considering we don't know the full impact of our alterations a priori. we tend to move forward, and "pick up the pieces" later.

Ok, without quoting here:

There is a good reason the law forbids mating before the age of 16, even though the female is ready to mate and conceive her body is not yet mature enough for childbirth without serious danger and complications. This is true in the animal kngdom and humans. Not to mention the mental and emotional maturity a person needs to raise a child that a 13 year old just doesn't have. Also there will always be those who pray on the young, it's a form of protection.

The comparison of pedophilia to homosexuality is missing an important factor. In homosexuality both participants are willing, pedophilia is rape, the victim doesn't give consent.

Questioning religion is very important. There is a huge difference between word of man and word of God. Jesus questioned Judaism. If only Jihadists would question what they are being told is the word of God. There are people claiming the victims of the tsunami died because they followed the wrong religion. There are those that claim to follow a loving and forgiving God but kill those they see fit to judge, blowing up medical facilities.

It takes much more than faith, faith has killed nations, old and young.

The only way for somebody to really know what is the word of God is to ask and listen to God themselves. If it could be done in the past it can be done now.

I understand what you're saying...in my opinion, what is wrong to me, may not be wrong to another. I guess I look at old school- the Bible for my morals and such.

I agree. But what we are seems to be a matter of opinion nowadaysd and not a fact. I go according to the Bible, and I know what I am, from what I have experienced, and now know of God. If we live w/o rules and consequences, then what kind of world would this be? Sadly, it is getting to that point, in my opinion.

Do you think there should be a rule outlawing homosexuality??

Do I think it should be a law? No. Man makes too many laws out of desire for control or power and money. I dont think lawmakers would do it for the right reasons. I think we should follow the laws God, our creator, that were made for us. But that is unrealistic. I am a strong believer in people making their own choices, and living up to the responsibility and consequences for those choices- good and bad.
Live and let live.

@wolftrax:

the ultimate irony in the age of concent debate is that while complexities of society necessitate the delay of reproduction (and thus the protection against early sexual behaviours) we are also witnessinging a decrease in the age of menarche because of the use of antibiotics, hormones, and steroids in the meat and dairy industries.

as you sow, so shall you reap. those words ring true moreso now than ever.

@SRIHeidiL:

there will always be rules and consequences.

what you and i want is responsibility. nowdays people want rights. i think nobody has any rights. what people have is a reponsibility to themselves, their fellow humans, and all life on earth. it is by executing responsibility one is granted privilages. we "put the cart before the horse".

we are but animals with a cerebral cortex wrapped around it. we must always be aware of the animal underpinnings of our primative brain structures if we are to exercise disipline and control over said structures. we are not "more evolved", we merely choose to act in a way we define as "more evolved".

for me there are no "morals" or "ethics" in the everyday underastanding. the simple way of seeing things for me is being able to say "i am you" wrt everything, for then you will respect everything.

I certainly understand what you are saying.
But if Nature provides for the full biological mechanisms and impulses at age 13 for pro-creation I would suppose that Nature has a reason for that, in my opinion.

Yeah well! My GAWD says that we are stupid and over-populating the planet and need to stop havin' so much heterosexual sex!!! Just kidding.

Well a while back, the average age humans died was like in their 40's, so I'd say it'd be a good idea to start popping those kids out and raising them early if life is that short! But now with all this wonderful technology everyone bashes, we last a lot longer and have time to waste in schools and crap before we start doing what nature intended. We have a greater purpose now than to just go out, grow up, have sex and die. Get my drift?

Yes, I would like people to take responsibility for their actions and earn their rights. I fel too many people have been given rights because of the past, and I feel that has been taken for granted and advantage of. Society has protected others to protect themselves, and there is loss of meaning anymore. I completely agree with loss of morals and ethics. It is sad. But yes, I do not judge those for who they are but what they do. I respect those who respect me and leave truth to what it will be and do.
Thanks for the reply! Its nice to have someone agree with me for once! lol

Homosexuality should be outlawed.
The event of homosexuality involves actions that Nature remanded to pro-creation; specifically, that sexual expression is desired between a man and a women to enable a child and thus propagate the species.

I swear that I can hear Banjos being tuned...

If procreation is the only reason for sex, does that mean that infertile couples cannot have sex? What about families that have had as many children as they wish to have? Should they stop having sex for the rest of their days?

It concerns me that people get so wrapped up in what OTHER people do in the privacy of their own homes(Or hotel rooms in some cases). Who cares? If two consenting adults choose to have "relations" with each other, who are you(or anyone else for that matter) to tell them they can't?

It seems kind of oddly twisted that some folks would like to regulate what others do in their own bedroom in regards to sexual relations. The hyperfocusing on gays speaks volumes to the mindset of homophobes.

I bet I know what Freud would say...

@pallidin: so much for equality and mutual respect then.

I love you, Fluffy!!

Ok, Fluff, let's go horn-to-horn.

First of all, it is an established fact that homosexuality is an abherant activity within Nature. That it exists as a minority expression in Nature is not in any way of dispute, but it is certainly not the "norm" in Nature.

Secondly, homosexuality has been given the general status of "acceptance" due to the elevation of "minority status". Agreed?

OK. Well, I have news for you. Bestiality is a minority practiced event. Do we now allow bestiality because it is "personally and privately sexual within the minority" ??

@pallidin:

why do people always come back with the beastiality arguement?

it is not the same thing at all!!!!!

as for normalcy: something does not have to be in the majority to be normal within a structure or system.

So let me see if I am getting this straight...

You would like to compare the private relationships of two consenting adults(Who may or may not be as commited as any straight couple) to BEASTIALITY?

Okeedookee

The comparison is absolute. Nature does not dominantly provide for the expression of either.

that comparison is absolute alright; absolute idiocy!

To me, homosexuality is as natural as you can get. It's nature's way of cutting back on the population. And yes, we do need cut backs. Seriously. Plus, gay couples who wish to raise a child can go adopt a kid from, say, CHINA, where they are only allowed to have a certain number of kids because of over-population. How is there anything wrong with that?

Also, people say love is so uncommon in this world now. What is more striking than when you see, for example, two people who love each other so much, they don't care what organ is in between their legs? To me that is proof that love can exist anywhere and have no boundaries, especially when they fight to love each other when almost everyone around them is against it/forbids it.

You don't get it, do you?

As we continue to hack away at the foundations of Nature's sexuality, all becomes open.

It is rather pointless to argue with someone who is so concerned with others private matters. If you wish to regulate others sexual activity, by all means have at it.

I'd hope you would look honestly at your own motivations before you do.

so what is it you really fear?

it can not be people converting, because that does not happen, and the % of homosexuals in the population remains constant.

we are not hacking away at anything! homosexuality has been with us for the entire ride. it is a part of the species. we are not making up new stuff as we go along just to add some variety to the mix.

Hm...beastiality? Well a lot of dogs like to hump human legs! Does that mean they wanna screw us and whatnot? I can't speak for anyone who's into that stuff cause I really don't know what they be thinking . It seems that you're pulling one of those things that non-vegetarians pull on the vegetarians.

"SO IF YOU DON'T EAT MEAT THEN WHY DO YOU STILL WEAR LEATHER SHOES!? YOU DO KNOW THOSE ARE LEATHER SHOES, RIGHT?!"

If you see my point.

Everyone has different views on things. You can't just whip out a topic on beastiality in a homosexuality thread and expect everyone to see them as the same thing.

Well, I see that I am being banged here to preserve free and wanton sexual expression irregardless of responsible comments.
There is nothing more I can say, as it has been said, and completely ignored.

Good luck all... off to another thread.

Actually, homosexuality IS practiced in nature. There are, as I've ssaid before, many many factors which conrtibute to real homosexuality, one of which is chromosones, and that most definantly IS nature.

As for animals, many animals show homosexual traits. Some animals even change sex in same sex environments, au naturel sex changes! lol And even human beings, which certain chromosonal imbalances can NATURALLY change sex. Are they then a male, or a female - or both?

Now, about sex for reproduction, like I've just finished saying in another thread NOWHERE, in the entire Bible, amongst Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines (yes, all at the SAME time), or the divorces which were common practice, or Adam and Eve running naked through a divine garden getting it on and reporducing nothing does it say that sex is SOLELY for reproduction. Sex was created t be enjoyed, and to, along the way, obviously continue the race, but that's not it's SOLE purpose. In fact it doesn't even say you have to be legally married ANYWHERE in the entire Bible to have sex.

Let us say that I agree with you, for the moment. If we legislate what sexes are allowed to copulate (ie: There must be 1 male and 1 female), then what other practices can the law impose on two consenting adults in their home?

How are your feeling regarding oral sex pallidan? That is surely "unnatural to gods desires". Should that be outlawed as well? And while we are on the subject, what about sodomy between members of the opposite sex? Fetishes (not involving children or animals)? Sexually explicit videos and magazines? Masturbation, either manual or with the use of certain adult novelties? Can we outlaw whips, and bondage gear?

Who gives you, or me or anyone, the right to dictate what happens behind closed doors? If, as some religious believers feel, these people are 'going against gods will', then don't you think that god will sort them out in the end? Why do you feel the voyeuristic need to regulate how, and with whom, people may enjoy themselves with?

I dont personally think that sex is just for creation. I am Bible believing, and am doing studies, etc...and have not learned about what the Bible says about that, but, overall, God tells us we should enjoy pleasures of the spirit and not of the flesh...so, to me, sex is a pleasure of both- when I am intimate with my husband, that is of spirit...
I am a firm believer to live and let live, and I let God judge people, thats not for me to judge, because He knows I am far from perfect myself. I dont feel right wondering or judging what other people are doing because I am content with who I am, and have no desire to know what other people are doing. Some religious fanatics take it upon themselves to invade others' lives and makes many true God-loving people look bad...now God does say we should spread His Word, but, not to be fanatics. Plant the seeds but dont rip apart the yard lol
And here is an interesting fact: Did you hear about the Catholic churches not marrying people when the husband is not able to have children? That is not Biblical, and I feel that is wrong.
I think what many strong belivers think is that they are just to continue to have sex, and whatever happens, happens...if God wants you to have a baby, then He will see to it, and if He doesnt want you to, He wont....it is strong faith, and I have to say I admire them! My faith in God is very strong, and I guess I feel the same, but I feel I have a long way to go with all that.
I have nothing against homosexuals, and have friends who are, but, I dont agree with it and dont like it, because of my beliefs, but that doesnt change how I feel about them. I jusge a person on how they are towards me, in life, and I also look at others' actions on "how does it affect me?" before I say or do anything. If it doesnt affect me, then so be it. But I always am open and honest when I am asked how I feel about it all. I will always take God's side.

If it's any consellation, I agree with you on the fact that homosexuality is wrong, as I am God-loving and following (not fearing, because those who know God dont fear Him) but I dont think it should be a law...just because we should be able to make certain choices and take responsibility for them- in life, and from God. But, I guess a consequence is being in trouble for committing a homosexual act, but, I just cant see that in this world. The gov't is too busy raising gas prices! lol j/k But, I do agree with you on the religious aspect.

Many feel that God allowed the AIDS virus because of homosexuality, as well as other STD's for sexual acts. He answers sin with sin (disease). Some also feel Cancer is around because of smoking, and all the other toxins we put in our body, that what we do to ourselves is wrong. That we are supposed to treat our bodies like a temple. Of all that I do, I can accept my punishment and responsibility when I do wrong. Thats just me, though.

And children with cancer, who don't smoke, from non-smoker households are being punished by God?

People who contract AIDS/HIV from blood transfusions, admittedly a small number, are being punished for what crime?

So, diseases are visited upon people for their sins? What a lovely medivel thought process you have there.

I suppose, people whose houses are destroyed in natural disasters are also being punished as well.

I was raped by my brother when I was very, very young. (I'm a male) A few years later I was also raped by a Boy Scout leader (friend of my brother)

Neither event was violently forced. Both said, in their own way, "relax, it will feel good"

I have forgiven my brother, though I have little contact with him(because of this) The Boy Scout leader was arrested for homosexual acts on minors about 15 years after raping me. To my knowledge he is still in jail.

Maybe that's part of my problem. Hell, I don't know.

Palladin, thank you for opening up and sharing that personal trajedy. That is very brave and you have gone miles further than most in revealing you're personal feelings towards your beliefs.

But in many cases, homosexuality is different than rape. I don't think anybody here would argue rape is wrong. It takes a long time to forgive a person, but even longer to forgive oneself. What happened to you wasn't your fault, and it didn't change how you are judged in God's eyes. I wish you good healing, sir.

Has anybody here actually prayed for an extended period of time and asked God what God thinks about homosexuality? Has anybody here received a direct answer from God, not from the Bible, but a direct answer from God? Please do before making anymore judgements.

I am not claiming to have all the answers, and I would never try to figure out God, but, I have my personal views, etc...and was just stating what people think.
I guess when you have strong faith in God, then you see things much differently.
Children who contract these diseases, like Cancer and AIDS....some believe they are angels in human form, to affet the people around them- bring them to God, or show them compassion, or to bring forth new research on Cancer in general, or to make people around them more knowledgeable or strong in certain areas of life...some parents become advocates to help others because of personal experiences...
I saw this movie, where one girl, healthy and bright, ende dup in a car accident and died. The parents wondered why. But her bestfriend ended up getting her test results back the same morning- she needed a heart transplant. She underwent surgery and her b/f's family gave her their daughter's heart...and they showed how the girl who died actually exchanged souls with her b/f...it was so interesting. I know it is a movie, but point is, we dont know why things happen, and God alows bad things because we allow them- no one practices what God asks. God allows them because He sees the big picture and in the end, all will turn out the way it is supposed to and for happiness. I think like htis because that is called faith. When my son was diagnosed with a small growing heart, and I was told he may not live to see 20 (he is 13 now), I was devastated!!! He had to quit the basketball team he was on...he was crushed. But, weeks later, their bus got into an accident, and 3 kids died that day! My son could have been one of them, and I have to think God "works in mysterious ways" but if we have faith, He will se eus to the end. I believe my son will live a full life. I have seen people cured of tumors and diseases, because they had full faith and prayer and miracles health/physical happened that doctors cant explain.

You said "So, diseases are visited upon people for their sins? What a lovely medivel thought process you have there."
It is not my thought, it is myt belief as it is stated in the Bible that is sometimes why God allows these things happen. God doesnt create bad- it is there because of the devil...God allows it and will turn it into good ultimately.
Same thing with natural disasters, as you also brought up. God has His reasons, just like we, as parents, do, for not letting our child go to a party, or not leting them eat certain foods they like, or making them go to camp when they dont want to...we do things for reasons that are good for our kids. God is much bigger than all that, and so is this world, therefore the events are much bigger.

In closing, I guess how bad things are depends on how we think.

I dont feel homosexuality should be outlawed, but, I do feel we should make laws that stand by what God asks.
Like, remember the big deal parents made that schools were handing out condoms? The people handing them out said "wouldn't you rather them be protected than unprotected?" And the parents said "1. it is not YOUR responsibility to do with my kids what you choose and 2 that is like telling a kid 'its ok to have sex, just use protection'". Just like we need to discipline our kids, we need to have discipline in our society. To many people dont realize how lucky we have it- being able to do what we want, when we want, how we want to, etc...We have so many privledges in this world, and we take them for granted, take advantage of them, and most of the time it isnt good enough and want more (society on a whole).
So, I feel gay marriage should not be legalized, because that is like saying it is ok, and I do not feel it is. I would not picket or debate about this, or not be friends with someone because they were gay, and I wouldnt sit next to someone to preach to them about how wrong they are...but if I am ever asked, I will say what I feel and why. I love people and life, and feel we need to respect both- and also the One who created us- it all!

And, again, I ask, who gives you, or me, the authority to say who can or cannot be together?

30 years ago, interracial couples were forbidden by law in certain parts of the country. The people who were against such 'mixing of the races' claimed that "it wasn't natural, and against gods will".

Would you vote for or against a law that regulated who can get married based on 'race'?