I think murder. What do you guys think?

it would help if i could see the police report!maybe,because i'm a little older,i
thought kurt cobain was a joke!he was an awful guitarist,but a great lyricist/poet.

I also think murder.................and why did you post that pic?

I don't think it was murder, there is just too many things that pointed to suicidal tendencies in his life...especially in the last few months. He had a crippling heroin addiction that he couldn't shake, he supposedly suffered from severe stomach aches that wouldn't go away (which is a common symptom of severe depression) hated his fame and worse he had become fodder for the tabloids (to the point that his daughter was taken away after courtney had been misquoted in vanity fair), and by all accounts he suffered from severe derepression. Listen to Nirvana's finale album "In Utero" it's practically one long suicide note if you pay attention to it. All of this only the tip of the ice burg, read "Heavier than Heaven" by Charles Cross, it provides a very detailed and accurate account of his last few months...it's quite disturbing to say the least. I think there is more than ample evidence to support that he was so fed up with his life and who he had become that he had decided to end his life.

I do think there are a few unanswered questions, I think the Seattle Police Dept really messed up the investigation, but I think if you look deeply enough you'll find that it probably takes you back to suicide. I can't say for sure that he wasn't murdered but from everything I have studied I would be very surprised.

Here is the police report if anybody wants to take a look:

The Smoking Gun

EDIT: I forgot to mention Rome! About two months before his death he attempted suicide by taking about 50 Xanax and downing a bottle of champagne, a suicide note was found on the scene. The extent of the damage was pretty bad from what I have read, some accounts say he was without oxygen for so long that it damaged his brain. Interestingly enough it was Courtney who found him called the ambulance and revived him, now that is odd since supposedly less than two months lates she paid to have him murdered. If that was the case why not just let him die in Rome and get it over with? She had been out for the night and found him on the floor when she returned, if she wanted him dead so badly she could have just turned around and walked away problem solved, no mess, no conspiracy.

there are a lot of inconsestincies with his suicide,but i think in all likelyhood,he killed himself!courtney has certainly fallen off the top of mt dumbass since he died has'nt she???

Oh dear god yes, Courtney has become quite a joke...and she's just down right embarrassing to boot. I don't know what happened I used to adore her back when Hole was first starting out.

Yeah the suicide is just weird, the missing finger prints on the gun (well some say smudged and un-readable fingerprints), the two different hand writings on the suicide note, the amount of heroin in his system...ect ect. But there is just so much pointing to a messed up guy who just wanted a way out, like I said it's really all just speculation, but I really lean towards suicide.

This sight is kind of interesting I haven't read the whole thing yet but what I have read is pretty interesting so far. Check it out if you haven't seen it before:

justiceforkurt.com

there is also the little fact that he had so much heroin in his body,he could'nt have been lucid enough to kill himself!i jsut do'nt understand courtney love,she must really be a total idiot.

No finger prints on the gun. Explain that one.

let's see..... He had attempted suicide before, he was a big drug addict and he joked around with the gun in his mouth..... I think it was suicide

So was it a ghost that killed hiM?

well, love did hire someone to kill him.

but the gardener found him 'before' the hitman.

check this out. my sister (totally cobain mad!) made it:

Well that's always been up for debate, they supposidly found fingerprints but they couldn't actually get a reading on who they belonged to.


This is an excerpt from the Justice for Kurt Website that I posted earlier:

"Firstly, the possibility evidence was mishandled could suggest an incompetent investigation and warrant a re-opening of the case; it does not by any means, however, prove someone wiped the gun down. For example, on the police list of items, the shotgun and shotgun case is listed as one item (#8). This may suggest the shotgun was transported inside its case, which easily could have removed any legible prints on the gun. Secondly, Nikolas Hartshorne claims in 'Heavier Than Heaven' that he had to pry the gun from Cobain's left hand, as rigor mortis had already set in; another factor that could account for lost prints. Third, the gun wasn't tested until a month after being found - some theorists also use this to claim the police didn't do their job, but it cannot simultaneously be said that legible prints should have been found in light of all of these possibilities. It may also be notable that the gun had been sitting in the greenhouse for three plus days - climate changes, condensation, etc. could be factors."

All of the above mentioned could easily explain that one away.

It was suicide.

Kurt was one messed up dude. He was full of self-hate. Hey, I'm doing a debate on this, if anyone is interested. We already have another person, but they haven't confirmed it.

I'm not going to inject any information into this topic til after the debate, but Walkens verdict: Murder.

Then I don't think you should judge

Did you get another debater yet?

Someone was interested, but they haved replied yet. It isn't written it stone yet, so I think it could still be open if the dude pulls out.

Oh, but you know my situatuion with it all

I saw a documentary like a year ago and they said he was so intoxicated he could not have enough strength or consciousness to write a suicide note or pull the trigger of the gun

Murder. The whole crime scene was swept clean before the body was found. I dont think a dead man could do that...He had a certain amout of drugs in his system too at the time that he would have been passed out. He wouldnt have had time to put all the drugs away, roll down his sleeves, and shoot himself...he would have passed out almost instantly. And the "suicide" note looks more like a good bye to fans since Nirvana was going to break up anyway, and the last bit at the end looks like it as added by somebody else. There are so many other things that I believe point to murder.

Visit http://www.justiceforkurt.com

Yeah, and his credit card was used AFTER he died.

you do know that credit cards can get stolen? Besides, what does that have to do with anything? Maybe he didn't always carry it around....

was any drugs,or"works"found near his remains?it is possible to kill yourself without pulling the trigger on a shotgun,or big stock gun.all you have to do is push it with a pencil,pen, or stick,and make sure the safety is off.but according to the M.E.,he could not have been awake at the time.it's very hard,especially inside for fingerprints to dissapate or degrade on their own.

Yes, drugs were found near his body and in his system. As for the whole pulling it with a pencil thing, like I said it would be impossible for him to do it because he was knocked out from the drugs at the time. As for the gun thing:



http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigatio...ime_scene.shtml

I find it fishy too that Courtney just happened to call and electrician...one who just so happened upon Kurt's body and after he contacted her, she didnt seem upset and had acted as if Kurt died just the other night. Also the whole shutgun reciept that just happened to be in his pocket makes me wonder if somebody was trying to force the idea that Kurt was responsible for his own death.

I don't know if anybody said this already

In the documentary the gun that is supposedly used to kill him is extremely powerful if he did shot him self in the head there should have been large amounts of brains and guts all over the place but in the photos there is hardly any on the floor. I wish I had the photo but I think the gun was in his right hand or left and the entry wound was on the left side of his head which makes the exit wound on the right the floor was clean on the right side of his head which in my opinion should have been full of guts

did anyone like the presentation?

he died one week before i was born.

Super Pancake, you're absoloubtly right.

Not only was he too intoxicated to have shot himself, but the suicide note was actually a note he had written to his fans more than a year earlier.

sorry man I don't have power point


The amounts of drugs in his system is well documented and was determined to be so high he could not do anything but collapse. As for the suicide note thats the first I heard of this but it's possible.

did'nt that bald headed guy courtney allegedly hired to wack kurt,get hit by a train or get drunk and pass out on train tracks or something???

openmind, you're talking about Eldon Hoke aka El Duce, lead singer of the Mentors. He said he was offered $50,000 by Courtney to kill Kurt in December of 1993. Later on he took a polygraph test and passed with a 99.7% certainty that he was telling the truth. He mysteriously wound up dead on a deserted train track.

openmind, why the hell do you keep posting pics of various musicians?

Walken, was it really written a year earlier?

Yes. The letter had no specific details, which is why people were first suspicous that it was a suicide note. It didn't even mention Courtney or there daughter.

Ok, I figured as much.

does it bother you that i post those pictures?i do it to keep things from getting boring!what happened to the guy in the kurt& courtney documentary that said courtney hired him to kill kurt?

I'm not sure but since his death circunstances are very weird I'd assume murder.. btw Openmind he wasn't that awful of a guitarist, a good guitarist is not just the one that plays everything perfect but also has talent to make songs and he made lots and very catchy, much better sounding than most Satriani's musics and alike out there.

I think, after everything I have read and seen and through my own analysis that he was murdered. There are just too many coincidences for it to be suicide. However, I've come to the conclusion that to me, it doesn't really matter how he died. Either way, he was an unhappy guy, he made some great music, he died, and it was tragic but it happened. I don't see how chucking someone in jail for a few years is going to change anything, especially if it's Courtney Love because she's spent enough time in jail. She needs to stop taking drugs and abusing people and look after Frances.
The whole story is very sad.

as a guitar player,cobain stank on his best days!the guy knew 3 chords,and that's about it.if you stuck dave gruhl(his drummer)on stage with him,gruhl would blow him away easily!he was a great lyricist,poet,but he was'nt even the best guitar player in his own band!

Read my last post on page 2.

Yes, it does, seeing as none of them have any thing to do with Cobains death.

So you knew him?even if Dave is a better guitar player than Kurt was his songs don't sound has good, like I said a guitar player ability is not measured only by his skill handling the guitar, and just because someone uses just 3 chords for most songs doesn't mean that he/she knows just 3 chords..

You try writing a better guitar part then him, and let me know how you do with that

I don't know I still maintain that everything pointing to murder is still very circumstantial. Most if not all of it can be called into question or refuted in one way or another. I think the question of fingerprints on the gun has already been addressed however if we refer to the same article we find that the "lethal" dosage of heroin in his system my have not been quite as it was reported. Read this passage from Justiceforkurt.com

"HEROIN & VALIUM
Kurt Cobain's blood morphine level was reported to be 1.52 milligrams per litre. The primary source of this claim is a 4/14/94 Seattle Post-Intelligencer article entitled, 'COBAIN LAY DEAD FOR 3 DAYS; NIRVANA SINGER HIGH ON HEROIN WHEN HE PULLED THE TRIGGER'. While this author believes this figure is more than likely accurate, all these possibilities nevertheless must be considered:

a) The SPI reported received a flawed copy of the report.
The SPI didn't receive a copy and was told this figure by word, and they were inadvertently given a wrong number.
c) The figure was misreported for some other reason; confusion in information printing by the paper itself, for instance.

Keep in mind Washington State law forbid the release of this information, so the method of obtainment was illegal unless Courtney specifically allowed it to be released.

That said, it's possible this can still be explained consistent with suicide.

The 1.52 figure includes both free morphine and conjugated (metabolized) morphine. Only the free morphine figure indicates whether or not Kurt was dead or incapacitated. Morphine has a half-life of 2-3 hours. The police reports indicate two injections - one on each inner elbow - were found in the body. Perhaps he injected twice and the free morphine level had lowered enough by the time Kurt chose to administer a second injection, at which point he then decided to commit suicide. While the Dead Men Don't Pull Triggers essay discusses the total level and the purported lethality of such a high dosage, it doesn't eliminate the possibility of a case such as this and doesn't differentiate between free and metabolized morphine as we don't know those actual figures - and again, as long as the 1.52 figure cannot be confirmed, this is all speculation.

It was also reported that Diazepam - Valium - was found in Kurt's system, but the amount is not known. This proves nothing. Diazepam has a halflife of 3-5 days; it is also given to heroin addicts going through rehab, so he could have taken it at Exodus. Additionally, he could have taken it on his own days before his death. The motive for potential murderers administering Valium into Kurt's system is illogical since they could easily just administer heroin until he was incapacitated."

I think this at the very least calls into question weather or not he would have had the ability to kill himself once he shot up. It's also important to keep in mind that Kurt had an unusually high tolerance for heroin, so it might be possible that a dosage that may have killed a casual user didn't have the same effect on Kurt.

As I mentioned earlier the problem with the murder conspiracy is that it's all circumstantial. It may have been murder, the is possible, and the evidence should be called into question but that doesn't simply equate to a murder theory. We still have to take into account this mans mental state around the time of his death, he was completely obsessed with the idea of suicide. It was evident in his lyrics, his interviews, and various pictures.

I think what drives me to believe that Kurt committed suicide all goes back to his attempt in Rome. The man attempted suicide less than two months before he was found dead of a supposed self inflicted gun shot wound. The only main suspect in the case for murder is Courtney Love, yet she found him, called an ambulance and helped revived him. Why would somebody who had her husband knocked off only five weeks later have gone through all that trouble to save his life in Rome? I think when we take this and all the above mentioned evidence of his mental state into account one can say quite safely that he probably committed suicide.

The Rome Incident wasnt a suicide attempt. The drug he took that was blown into a suicide attempt was Rohypnol (date rape drug) which is tasteless and disolves in liquid or in Kurt's case champagne. One tablet is enough to cause confusion in somebody and cause disorientation. So after Kurt took that, he wasnt responsible for his own actions. The drugs werent even his, they were Courtneys. It's so contradictiong too. Why would Kurt prepare to leave and take his money with him if he was just going to kill himself? Courtney claimed too about the Rome incident that she found him knocked out at like 3 or 4 in the morning, but the ambulance wasnt called until 6:30. Wouldnt you call an ambulance right away to make sure your husband is alright? Sounds like Courtney could care less if Kurt was alive or dead. I think it was an attempt at murder.

no matter what,cobain was'nt a very good guitarist.he was a great songwriter,and he was your generation's john lennon too.but when it comes to playing guitar with some of the masters,angus young,jimmy page,clapton,joe perry,and jeff beck,cobain would be sol everytime.i have tons of respect for him,he just sucked at playing guitar.by the way,i never claimed to be able to write better chops than cobain did,i can't.i ai'nt here to argue with anybody,we can agree or disagree like gentlemen i hope.

back to the subject at hand,is cobain's case offically closed?is love executor of his estate?when does his daughter inherit her share?

From "Heavier than Heaven" by Charles Cross;

"Upon discovering Kurt's lifeless body, Courtney called the front desk and Kurt was rushed to Umberto I Polyclinic Hosptal. Love had retrieved two empty blister packs of Rohypnol next to Kurt--- he had taken 60 of the aspirin-size pills, individually removing each from a plastic-and-foil-container."

Nobody is this stupid, especially not somebody who did drugs like this man. So he popped out 60 Rohypnol and drank champagne and didn't expect anything to happen?

Well if the ambulance wasn't called for two hours than why would she call for one at all, why would she wait two hours to call an ambulance? Is it possible that she thought he was asleep or had passed out (which wasn't an uncommon occurence for Kurt) and than when he didn't come around as usual she got scared and called an ambulance? Remember this women is supposed to have had kurt killed less than two months after this. So instead of just letting him die, she went through all of the trouble to go home hire and pay for a hitman, cancel shows in Europe, mess up the release of her album and plant all sorts of wacky stories in the media to prove that it was a suicide when she could have just not called an ambulance. It just illogical and needlessly stupid for her to do this.

I don't know what this Peter Cleary guy is going on about I remember a lot of talk going around about Kurt being suicidal bach before In Utero came out, well before he died, the media may have picked up on it after that but anybody with half a brain could see what his lyrics were getting at. The Funny thing about Peter and Dylan Carlson is they were both very close to Kurt, it's usually those closest to the victim who always claim that they didn't see it coming. It's pretty simple to account for as well, if you're suicidal you may have a tendency to put on a show for those around you especially if you've made up your mind and don't want anybody to try to stop you. Carlson himself almost proves my point,

"At the time (they went to buy the gun, 30 March 1994,) Kurt definitely wasn't suicidal or I would never have bought the gun. He was my best friend. I would have known if Rome was a suicide. No way. A year earlier I would have believed it because of the pain, but he wasn't talking like that anymore. He was making all kinds of plans for when he got back from rehab"

hmmm..."No way. A year earlier I would have believed it because of the pain, but he wasn't talking like that anymore." Is it possible that Kurt was simply putting on a facade in front of his friends and family. Severe depression just doesn't clear up like that, people don't just become better overnight.

It's also possible that those closest to him were just in denial about the way he was acting, which is another thing that's not uncommon for those close to suicide victims to claim. It's sort of like denying that your Father is an alcoholic, it sometimes only becomes obvious to his friends and family when the addiction has finally gone too far.

My point here is that for all of the evidence that people put forward to prove he was murdered, it can all be refuted in one way or another. As I have mentioned in previous posts, nobody really knows, but we need concrete proof of murder.

Sorry double post.

The thing is though a lot of people say that Kurt wasnt suicidal, even a doctor. Courtney just started saying that after Kurt was found dead to the media and whatnot. The whole thing in Rome, Kurt said was a mistake. He didnt do it on purpose or perhaps he didnt even do it at all...

There is a lot of strange things in this case. I think Courtney did it, her alibi was a joke.

what exactly was her alibi?was'nt she supposed to be in california in rehab or something?