So, Ashley, you are saying that there is a celestial nursery in heaven for the 7 and under crowd?

I suppose there is also a geriatric ward for the over 80 group too.

What about bowling? are there leagues? And where can I get my Heavenly auto serviced and fueled?

Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but you make heaven seem just like life here.

So sinners go to Heaven then.

Im not sure about the "7" year old thing. But I doubt a child of this age knows what sin is.

they probably are more likely to know the truth! the indoctorination process has not had time to close their minds off yet and make them live in fear of the bogey-man of alpha-centauri!

kids understand quite a bit. they are the precious hope for this species. now if only we could stop the idiot adults from shutting down their potential with artificial constructs, artificial fears, and irrational beliefs.

Must I quote that verse again?

At this young age, I doubt it would get in the way of the child's study of science. Besides, any person can change their mind as they grow older. If they chose not to be religious, then they have the right to not be. If anything, introducing religion to a child is a good way to enforce some sort of morals. It won't ultimately keep them from what they want to do, or what they want to think.

I'm sure many of the skeptics on this board were believers at first, then they changed their minds. I am also assuming that many changed their minds at a younger age, possibly in the teenage years.

And perhaps some never believed it to begin with.

really?

instilling fear does so much to internalize values, doesn't it? that must be why there are so many violent (immoral) believers in the world today.

edit: the surest path to an open mind is an open mind! external threats do not make effective tools for the internalization of anything. all they teach is how to avoid punishment.

Yeah, you're right.

It's the job of all preachers around the world to strike fear in little children, and to tell them that they are going to hell.....

Exactly. And you have thrown out a conscious creator possibility alltogether. How open minded is that?

i have not thrown out a conscious creator altogether. i just threw out christianity (due to the falsity of it, of which you nor any other christian can show otherwise).

re-ligio is for the lost fool. those that have become enightened have seen the path

How do you know its "false?"


"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 1:14)

1. how do i know? by using my mind, by listening, by questioning. christians do a good job of proving christianity is false.
2. and a man that worships a false god does not see beyond the idol he has created for himself.

Can you give me an example on what you mean?

read back through the threads. you guys give me all the ammo.

I could be wrong, but I could not imagine that "heaven" would be in any way less disireable than "non-heaven"
To think that we become some mindless smiling creature in perpetual "bliss" would seem rediculous. GOD, being the Creator, loves to create, so I think we will be constantly involved, awed, and participate in continuing creation.
But that's just my opinion.

i bet

well, if we take all the christian defenses and put them together, you guys contradict yourselves!

all i have to do is ask a question, and multiple answers come forth. from that i show the flaws of the arguements, and you guys "adapt" or sidestep, but never disprove the fallacies i bring forth.

look at the last while on our "is jesus a god" talks. all i got from the evidence from your side was even more reasons how the god and jesus benefited from the cruxifiction!

Atheist do the same thing. =D

And it also doesnt mean that both answers to your questions are wrong.

which ones? i hope your not confusing me with an atheist.

i am merely a logical fellow.

edit: the answers are correct in reference to a false source, redering them false.

I told you that everyone benefited from it. How does this make it false?

because he knew exactly (concretely) what was going to happen, nor as a god could he die, and therefore was not making a sacrifice.

It makes no difference if he "knew" or not. It didn't make his death anymore easier or less painful.

it makes all the difference in the world! he knew he was to gain from it! there is also the whole issue of what kind of pain would a god feel. even us humans can channel our energies to avoid pain. imagine what the mind of a god could do! the flesh body would be as disposable as a paper cup to him. why would it matter? as soon as you claim he was a god, the very foundations of the religion collapse!

Let's say that you had the opportunity to live in the kingdom of heaven right now, or live on the earth and you would eventually die and go to heaven anyway. However, the only way to live in heaven right now, was to die a completely horrible death. This death is very slow, and extremely painful. And not to mention, you would have to go to hell for three days. (This is controversial, but I will throw it in.) Now, which one would you chose? Keep in mind, they both have the same outcome, minus the people of the earth would not be cleansed of their sins (had you decided to live).

Jesus felt the pain as any normal human would. Jesus was just as mortal as you and I. God didn't cut him any slack. Had Jesus not felt pain, it would have been fake and counterfeit. God doesn't fake anything. When he does something its to the point.

His death was not a mere "prick of the finger."


?

if i knew via experintial knowledge what this better place was yes i would want to go home now! what is three days to a god! once returned to the land of immortality time is meaningless! the pain would also be meaningless give what i would KNOW i am getting for it.



which was it then! was he a god or just as mortal as us? if he was just as mortal as us you have opened up another pandora's box which we discussed before.

as for god not faking anything: why did he deliver such vague messages that have countless interpretations? why did he leave every generation of christian to think the world was going to end? it seems to me he faked quite a bit!



it would be to a god!



what is so hard to grasp of christians making jesus into a false god as the cornerstone of a false religion? that is why mohammad came to the scene to set the record straight (not that i believe him to be a prophet but i do beleive that where ever there is corruption - in this case christianity - some one will rise to correct it)

It wasn't only pain, Jesus was shamed by almost everyone. The pain would be "meaningless" in the long run, however its still something you would have to go through. Kind of like getting a tattoo, it hurts when they do it, but it lasts forever and stops hurting after a few days.


When I say "he was just as mortal as you and I" I mean that his body was subject to death. He could feel pain just like you and me.

What are these vague messages you speak of?

Mohammad was never sent by God. Ask any Jew if they believe a word mohammud said.

1. shame, pain. a god would not be so concerned with mere mortals (after all, christians claim jesus understood and forgave them)
2. his body indeed! and since he knew he was getting a major upgrade by getting rid of the bag of water it was a win situation for him!
3. it is called the bible!
4. muhammad is as valid as a messenger of god as is jesus!

Indeed.

Maybe He was, but His followers, like christians - the followers of christ, the followers of many Gods are helpless and confused. They teach their own doctrine and pay no attention the Gods themselves.

1) The bible is not as vague as it is made out to be.
2) If anyone of the so called prophets is fake, it is Muhammud. You can see this easily in the way he lived his life. And he scorned people for worshipping Jesus, (idolatry) but then he told people to pray to a rock.

pray to a rock! you tell funny tales. all muslems pray in the direction of where the first message was delivered to muhammed because that is a sacred place (because it is where god revealed himself and islam was born). they don't worship a rock, they respect their origins.

edit: your analogy would be like me saying christians are masochists because they enjoy seeing a guy stuck on a stick!

Tell me, why do Muslims circle Mecca?

that was already answered in one of the threads in the last few days!

Exactly. These people are circling a huge dome, and praying to it. Idolatry

they are praying to allah, not the dome! the tradition is to return to where the original revelation occured but it is not about worshipping anything other than allah himself.

God promised His people a land. Israel. The Messiah was not the descendant of Ishmael, but Isaac. Isaac was the chosen one. His descendants have Israel.

Rev 11:1-2
"Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
"But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."

Notice that it calls the outside of the Temple the part of the gentiles. That is where the Muslims are in Israel. Anyone who studied history can tell; you do not have to be a hardcore theologian to know that the geneologies have been prophecied unto Jesus Christ descending from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It is my personal opinion that Muhammed was not the messiah, thus His message which was indeed, spiritual was not the message of God. Idolatry is a common sin.
Everyone does it. However, muslims are zealous for their faith, but, again, it is my opinion that they are't in the right.

Why can't you just pray to allah in your bathroom? Why is a Muslim required to go to Mecca once a year and circle some silly dome for hours? Is this supposed to make you a better Muslims? (Which many people die each year from being trampled on by the way...)

It's almost the same as a person worshipping Mary.

the pilgrimage is only required once in your lifetime, and only if you have the means to make it (allah does not punish you for things beyond your control).

worship of marry! sort of like worship of a man hanging on a stick too!

Mary is not God. Nor is "Mecca," or some silly rock Muslims touch and rant and rave about.

nor is jesus!

Yes, you see its good to worship Jesus because he is the Son of God.

Muhammud, his rock, Mary and Mecca are not "sons of God."

on the contrary, it is bad to worship a man as a god for that is to falsely raise a man to the rank of god! one worshipping jesus is no different then when the tribes of isreal worshipped their golden cow (and just as moses came down and was upset at the idolatry, so was god at the idolatry of jesus so he sent muhammad!)

Yes, but see God would have never made Jesus a prophet had he known Jesus were to lie about being the son. (if it were a lie)

Muhammud was 40 yrs old and needed a story to make him famous. So, he made up the story of him being sent by God.

well, we have seen time and again how this god is not all-knowing, all-powerful, or all-present! he didn't know a priori that man would distort the message of jesus and falsely proclaim him a god.

if you think muhammad made up his stories, then you should think the same of all the prophets of the one god!

Hmm...again, not sure why you think these things....



Like I said, Muhammud was getting old, and he made this story up to gain personal prestige. Otherwise you would think the Jew would recognize his teachings.

1. the bible and its interpreters/followers tell me so.
2. why would a jew need to recognize islam? does a buddhist need to recognize hinduism? does a witch need to recognize taoism? does a chtistian need to recognize a confucianist? what does age have to do with anything? if a god (or any other higher power) decides to send a message to a man, he can do so whenever he wants to! be careful of what arguements you use. since islam is built on christianity much of what you say to discredit it, if taken seriously, also discredits christianity......

you know, we should really just have a debate about this rather than eating up so many threads... you can invite all the bible backers too! (all the more ammo for me, not that i need any more than what has already been served up)

Because Islam came from Judaism. All three religions believe in all the prophets, except for two not recognizing "Muhaymud." Therefore if "Moohaymud" were a true prophet, the Jews would recognize him. Muhammud did not really contradict the Jewish beliefs. However, it does contradict the Christian beliefs.

The only thing I discredit about Islam is Muhammud.

Islam - Moooohaymud = Christianity (at least prior to Muhaamud)

how nice.

so if life is so simple do you buy the arguement: christianity - jesus = judaism?

or even better:

mankind + religion = stupidity!

or how about:

mankind - reason - logic - responsibility = religion

or even better:

man + voice in head = man hearing himself

man following voice in another man's head =

Yes, but Islam is clearly the odd one out.




I think this equation sums it up pretty nicely...

Mankind - denial of a higher power = ignorance

So then we can also conclude that Jesus was getting old (33 when his started his ministry), had no wife or heirs, and needed something to make him famous. So he said he was the Son of God



Quid Pro Quo Mr amalgamut. Why should we believe one over the other? They both have cults founded on them, They both claim to speak for God, so what is the difference? From the tone of your posts Amal, you seem to be getting upset that Mohammed is sharing the spotlight with your god.

Oh, and your childish maligning of the name of this prophet are really swaying my opinion.

Jesus fits the prophecy.





How many times must I tell you? The Jews, nor the Christians do not recognize Muhammud, he is the odd man out. Had he been a true prophet, the Jews would think him as one.

Muhammud is false, simple as that.

You seem to be in the opinion that I care what your "opinion" is.

Also, you must fail to realize the reason for those two towers comming down in your state was due to the beliefs in "Muhammud."

Remember that next time you try and defend him.