Mr Ed
May 18 2005, 08:38 PM
hmmm quite possible, but as you said your memory is hazy. I know for a fact that Thetis, disguised as a sea serpent frightened the Achean's, till one realised who she was, but this could have been at another time, probably during Achilles' funeral etc. They could well be just two genuine sea serpents.
You are probably right on the idea that these were other sea serpents that came at a different time, not with Thetis. I have not read the Illiad. My knowledge is mostly that concerning the Odyssey, Greek mythology and tragedy, and unforunately some stuff about Greek pots...Im pretty sure you are right on this one
marduk
May 18 2005, 08:38 PM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 18 2005, 09:33 PM)
hmmmm well I'll take your origins of Poseidon into consideration then, since it sounds like it could well be true, but I won't consider it concrete yet...
Good point there about the gods being us. One of the reasons for the downfall of the Greek god is that people realised they were far from perfect. Many of the male gods raped mortal women, nymphs, niads etc. They also squabbled amongst themselves. Some Greek's saw that gods would not behave like this, part of the reason for their abandonment.
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Gods serve a purpose in any growing society
they give you something to aim for
once you've surpassed the gods though it just holds you back
take a look outside your window and you'll see that in action right now
Mr Ed
May 18 2005, 08:42 PM
I don't quite know what you mean, but if you are saying the Greek's realised that they were equal or better than their gods morally, and this was part of the reason for growing disbelief in them, then I agree with you. The Greeks actually believed their gods to be ammoral as well, how odd.
marduk
May 18 2005, 08:43 PM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 18 2005, 09:42 PM)
I don't quite know what you mean, but if you are saying the Greek's realised that they were equal or better than their gods morally, and this was part of the reason for growing disbelief in them, then I agree with you. The Greeks actually believed their gods to be ammoral as well, how odd.
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clash of the titans was a good movie
hehehe
when i was 11
Mr Ed
May 18 2005, 08:45 PM
what????
Im going now anyway...read your stuff tomorrow, bye.
greychupa
May 19 2005, 09:46 AM
The war on Troy was a made up story by Homeros, and the passage with the horse was brought in by someone else, not by Homeros.
DJ_Quinn
May 19 2005, 10:06 AM
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts, or wearing togas.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 11:27 AM
Actually there is suffiecient evidence to suggest that there was a city named Troy and that the Achean's did destroy it. The remains of Troy were found several years ago and from what I remember in the media, it is a reasonable posibility that there was a Greek war there.
Essan
May 19 2005, 12:04 PM
I'm getting confused here
So the Annunaki gave Poseidon a Trident Missile which he used to blow up Troy, and he then got shipwrecked and became a famous fisherman called the Pope?
Is that right?
Vallheru
May 19 2005, 12:33 PM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 19 2005, 11:27 AM)
Actually there is suffiecient evidence to suggest that there was a city named Troy and that the Achean's did destroy it. The remains of Troy were found several years ago and from what I remember in the media, it is a reasonable posibility that there was a Greek war there.
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Damn...where do you people read all that stuff??? Amazing you know so much about Illiada and Odyssey....
Anyhow, although it is definately a big literature piece, it's still only a "bedtime story". The conflict between the Trojans and the greeks of the time was true but don't imagine any great war, in scale. Just some greek imperialists trying to enslave richer lands (story of the world...).
To answer the question at hand, the horse of Troy is probably a product of Homer's vivid imagination and nothing more. Good thinkin of him though....
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 01:57 PM
Yup, the Odyssey certainly makes good reading.
OlDrippy34
May 19 2005, 03:02 PM
Trojan Horse=product of Vergil's imagination, actually.
There also have been discoveries made that suggest that the city of Troy did exist, yes...there were actually a number of cities built on top of each other, and one of these layers shows evidence of being razed to the ground.
The Aeneid, which contains the story of the Trojan Horse, was written by Vergil for a friend of his...who happened to be the Roman Emperor Augustus. Augustus wanted a piece of literature written to confirm Roman beliefs that Romans, particularly the Julian family(of which he was a part) were descended from gods. The Aeneid details the adventures of Aeneas, the son of Venus, and the surviving Trojans as they search for a new homeland, which they find in Italy.
The evidence does point to a Trojan War having occurred, though the specific details included within these works of literature(The Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aeneid) are almost definitely fiction.
marduk
May 19 2005, 03:50 PM
QUOTE(Essan @ May 19 2005, 01:04 PM)
I'm getting confused here
So the Annunaki gave Poseidon a Trident Missile which he used to blow up Troy, and he then got shipwrecked and became a famous fisherman called the Pope?
Is that right?
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yeah
but you missed out time travelling plato and concrete pyramids
The Roswell Man
May 19 2005, 03:53 PM
concrete pyramids eh?
marduk
May 19 2005, 03:55 PM
QUOTE(The Roswell Man @ May 19 2005, 04:53 PM)
concrete pyramids eh?
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yes, what you do apparently is grind big blocks into stone then mix them up in situ and hey presto concrete blocks made of sand
apparently its much less labour intensive which is the only positive thing about it
Dark_Lord
May 19 2005, 03:58 PM
The legend of the trojan horse dates back at least to the micenean age, when we have the first known depiction of the trojan horse, on VII century pottery. Since the Odyssey is a epical poem, I don't see the point in trying to demonstrate the actual existence of the trojan horse. It is however possible it actually existed, although it is more likely to think to the trojan horse as to a fictional feature, inserted by Homer in his poems to underline Ulysses' cleverness.
marduk
May 19 2005, 04:05 PM
QUOTE(Dark_Lord @ May 19 2005, 04:58 PM)
The legend of the trojan horse dates back at least to the micenean age, when we have the first known depiction of the trojan horse, on VII century pottery. Since the Odyssey is a epical poem, I don't see the point in trying to demonstrate the actual existence of the trojan horse. It is however possible it actually existed, although it is more likely to think to the trojan horse as to a fictional feature, inserted by Homer in his poems to underline Ulysses' cleverness.
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sounds very similar to the form of execution reserved by the celts for condemned criminals and prisoners of war.
they put them inside colossal wicker figures and burned them alive.
considering the celtic cultures affinity for horses is it surprising to find out that some of the wicker figures were dragons
Stixxman
May 19 2005, 04:12 PM
now thats capital punishment.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 04:13 PM
Ulysses was Odyseuss' Roman name, dont create confusion! hmmmm 7th century pottery depictied the trojan horse? Which civilisation made that then? Because it wasn't the Greeks, an earlier one?
The Greeks didn't have mythology on pottery until the 6th century- ish.
I think anyway.
Dark_Lord
May 19 2005, 05:30 PM
myceneans. The first mythological depictions on pottery date to the XII century BC.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 05:52 PM
Ah thanks, thought it would be someone like them, as the Greeks were still using geometric patterns prodominantly up until the 6th Century BC (ish)
NME_locus
May 19 2005, 05:58 PM
QUOTE(marduk @ May 18 2005, 07:41 PM)
Don't forget where the term "beware of greeks bearing gifts" comes from
thinking further, didn't they also invent Jesus.
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what's up with dogging on Jesus thing.I'm a catholic... but i respect all religions in the same manner. what do you belive in?
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 06:01 PM
Hey don't start a religious argument up please. This is a thread about the alleged Trojan Horse, not Jesus etc...
marduk
May 19 2005, 06:01 PM
QUOTE(NME_locus @ May 19 2005, 06:58 PM)
QUOTE(marduk @ May 18 2005, 07:41 PM)
Don't forget where the term "beware of greeks bearing gifts" comes from
thinking further, didn't they also invent Jesus.
[right][snapback]628439[/snapback][/right]
what's up with dogging on Jesus thing.I'm a catholic... but i respect all religions in the same manner. what do you belive in?
[right][snapback]629985[/snapback][/right]
i thought i was dogging the greeks but only because it was on topic
Jesus has a greek name
see
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 06:02 PM
Argh! stop before you start a religious debate!
The Roswell Man
May 19 2005, 06:03 PM
by chance is jesus a popular name in greece??
i know the is lots of spanish and south americans us that name.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 06:06 PM
It may be, it may not be...don't risk a religious debate! please.
marduk
May 19 2005, 06:20 PM
QUOTE(The Roswell Man @ May 19 2005, 07:03 PM)
by chance is jesus a popular name in greece??
i know the is lots of spanish and south americans us that name.
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Lol it's not the jesus bit thats greek
its the messiah bit
thats why its odd
a persons name can be chosen on the whim of a parent but to believe that all those believers of Christ were running around calling him the messiah, nah
end of debate
sorry
The Roswell Man
May 19 2005, 06:35 PM
oh yeah marduk
did u add toilet facilities 4 a joke
or because it was like a mobile house?
Great Big Sea
May 19 2005, 06:38 PM
I heard about the Horse of Troy. I think they put their men up (the Greek) and then attacked the city of Troy. There's a episode of The Simpsons where they spoofed this. I think Homer was a Greek leader while Flanders was the king of Troy. It was funny because they already had many
wooden animals in the city!
I don't know much about it about the story not about the episode.
Celumnaz
May 19 2005, 07:06 PM
maybe it wasn't that big, and it only had like 2 guys in it... they went to the bathroom before getting in... and then they opened the gates or something to let the army in later... and the horse got bigger with the telling to make it sound even coolerer.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 07:24 PM
I doubt it cel, but it could well have been made up for a plot line, althought I like to believe it was filled with Achean's who then razed Troy to the ground...
Rommie if you mean you don't know about the story, I think there is more information about it from the first posts.
Pyxis
May 19 2005, 07:34 PM
QUOTE(zandore @ May 18 2005, 02:41 PM)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 18 2005, 02:16 PM)
it was giacomo. (sp)
[right][snapback]628287[/snapback][/right]
?
Spanish?
[right][snapback]628342[/snapback][/right]
Kentucky Derby Winner.
OlDrippy34
May 19 2005, 07:53 PM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 19 2005, 03:24 PM)
I doubt it cel, but it could well have been made up for a plot line, althought I like to believe it was filled with Achean's who then razed Troy to the ground...
Rommie if you mean you don't know about the story, I think there is more information about it from the first posts.
[right][snapback]630129[/snapback][/right]
According to the Aeneid, there were only a handful of men inside...including, I believe, Achilles son(Greek-Neoptolemus, Roman-Pyrhhus), Ulysses, and the two Atreides, Menelaus and Agamemnon. I'll look it up in my notes when I go home tomorrow. But there were only a handful, as the rest of the Greek soldiers had taken their fleet and hidden behind the nearby island of Tenedos. The Greeks inside the horse killed the sentries and lit a beacon for the rest of the fleet to return, and opened the gates for the rest of the Greeks to pour into the still sleeping city. The Aeneid is actually a REALLY good read, and I recommend it highly...there are several translations, including one you can get online...but it's translated by John Dryden, and it rhymes and is kind of archaic in its language and difficult to understand. I'll dig up my copy when I go home, because it's a different translation and is REALLY good.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 07:57 PM
Ya huh, cool. All I mean in response to cel, is that the story probably didn't develop over the years as it was written by one man etc. However, stories/epic poems would have been told by the word of mouth, but I doubt they would have changed much because of all the techniques used for memory that we can see in them today.
Conspiracy
May 19 2005, 08:04 PM
i think it was just a wooden horse.
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 08:05 PM
So do I.
marduk
May 19 2005, 08:51 PM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 19 2005, 09:05 PM)
So do I.
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No i'm sorry but i still gotta go with the annunaki armoured personnel carrier,
It's the toilet facilities bit on the wooden horse theory where it falls down for me
I can believe that they actually built a wooden horse that big out of a few ships but having plumbing fitted and then forgetting to mention it
no way
Mr Ed
May 19 2005, 08:53 PM
Yeah, our historians have been lieing to us, they tell us that the first flushing toilet was invented during the reign of Victoria, when obviously it was during Agamemnon's empire!
marduk
May 20 2005, 11:58 AM
QUOTE(Mr Ed @ May 19 2005, 09:53 PM)
Yeah, our historians have been lieing to us, they tell us that the first flushing toilet was invented during the reign of Victoria, when obviously it was during Agamemnon's empire!
[right][snapback]630319[/snapback][/right]
lol
i wouldn't have thought it'd be a flusher
more like a bucket
The Roswell Man
May 20 2005, 12:02 PM
how about the indians having a ancient plumbing network
more advanced than 2day
lol
marduk
May 20 2005, 12:12 PM
QUOTE(The Roswell Man @ May 20 2005, 01:02 PM)
how about the indians having a ancient plumbing network
more advanced than 2day
lol
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The indians ?
wre they at troy too
how about the seventh cavalry ?
The Roswell Man
May 20 2005, 12:14 PM
yeah mayb
lol
Bio-Mage
May 21 2005, 11:25 AM
Not sure what is SO outrageous about a wooden structure that can hold several soldiers inside. The horse in not necessarily fiction, as it was common for greek armies to use ploys to overcome obstacles in many battles throughout their history.
In terms of the toilet problem I can only give my opinion as a biologist. A warrior of that time eating certain dry food of a specific kind could easily keep himself from producing any waste for a few days. Urine you could always collect from a piss up later. Think of it as self induced constipation.
And NO....Greeks did not invent jesus christ. The only reason we got stuck with christianity is because the revelation and was writen in Greece and was also the prefered language for the new testament . Ancient Greeks may had certain beliefs in gods but they did not mean the word God as we like to think of it today. Don't forget than even they got created in their mythology.
marduk
May 21 2005, 11:45 AM
QUOTE(Bio-Mage @ May 21 2005, 12:25 PM)
Not sure what is SO outrageous about a wooden structure that can hold several soldiers inside. The horse in not necessarily fiction, as it was common for greek armies to use ploys to overcome obstacles in many battles throughout their history.
In terms of the toilet problem I can only give my opinion as a biologist. A warrior of that time eating certain dry food of a specific kind could easily keep himself from producing any waste for a few days. Urine you could always collect from a piss up later. Think of it as self induced constipation.
And NO....Greeks did not invent jesus christ. The only reason we got stuck with christianity is because the revelation and was writen in Greece and was also the prefered language for the new testament . Ancient Greeks may had certain beliefs in gods but they did not mean the word God as we like to think of it today. Don't forget than even they got created in their mythology.
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you know if i was a trojan and i saw that beast outside the gates in the morning i would have burnt it
don't beware of greek bearing gifts.
beware of trojans because they're really really stupid
Lady
May 21 2005, 11:48 AM
If u read the Iliad the Greek Gods are jst one big unhappy family!!! i think the whole mythology thing was jst a way for people to understand their everyday lives, similarly the wooden horse was probably a literary device used to explain how Troy was taken. Still, worked pretty well in the film...
marduk
May 21 2005, 11:49 AM
QUOTE(Lady @ May 21 2005, 12:48 PM)
If u read the Iliad the Greek Gods are jst one big unhappy family!!! i think the whole mythology thing was jst a way for people to understand their everyday lives, similarly the wooden horse was probably a literary device used to explain how Troy was taken. Still, worked pretty well in the film...
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th best bit in the film was Bradd Pitt
hehehe
Lady
May 21 2005, 11:53 AM
Think i'm gonna hav to agree on that one
But i liked him more cos of the way he played Achilles, definitely my fave Greek hero. he's one moody guy, but he has a fantastic take on life...
marduk
May 21 2005, 11:55 AM
QUOTE(Lady @ May 21 2005, 12:53 PM)
Think i'm gonna hav to agree on that one
But i liked him more cos of the way he played Achilles, definitely my fave Greek hero. he's one moody guy, but he has a fantastic take on life...
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you liked the way he played Achilles
you mean the way he played him with his tanned smooth thighs showing the whole time,
or the way his blue eyes peered out of the helmet ?
lol
Lady
May 21 2005, 11:59 AM
point taken
But really i did think the acting was great...
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