And we're supposed to sit back and BELIEVE their fairy tales as they make them up. When their story changes, we are still supposed to mindlessly go along with it!!

Is America being destroyed by its rulers or the opposite?


http://www.knife-party.net/flash/barry.html



And they say ignoance is bliss.

You really think it defies logic? How many different items were confiscated? How many videos, cameras, pictures? Imagine a group of ten people with a mountain of all this evidence trying to catalog and classify everything as fast as possible so that the investigators could get on with getting the answers everyone was screaming for. We aren't talking about any single video or picture; we are talking about everything that was seized within the first day of the investigation. No, I do not believe it illogical at all that something would fall between the administrative gaps. I would even expect it to. Human error is the one thing I have continual faith in.

If we were talking about a dozen or so items of evidence, then I agree it wouldn't be logical, but we are talking about much more than that, and about a very short period of time to get things done.

i'd be intrested in seeing the rumsfield family barberque video.

Sorry, classified Top Secret. Can't let that secret recipe fall into the worng hands, now.

wow this is a popular thread

have they put this new discovery on the news? If not, we should ask Saruman to try, and see what happens..

You can't believe they would let thousands die to pass a bill that would tighten the grip of control? Don't be so naive panther, five thousand people are a drop in the bucket compared to the almost 300 million living in the states. What have they "willingly" sacrificed in Iraq in people's lives to secure the future of oil? What do you think they were doing in Vietnam to fight the advance of communism? How many died there? What happened on 9/11 was a hiccup compared to what has come before it, its SOP now. Those at the top are always willing to make "sacrifices" of life to achieve their goals because they are not sacrificing their own lives.

Perhaps you believe our Government would kill thousands of innocents I dont. Also a plot this large would require alot of resources and people which makes lots of room for mistakes. No sorry i cant swallow it and that doesnt make me naivie just a different opinion.

I agree as well. While the political value of an individual is miniscule, it does add up, and when you get into the numbers that are being proposed here, it is no longer sufficient to merely claim "the government can kill and cover-up anything". I simply cannot agree that such an undertaking could occur without at least one of the many people involved breaking silence, or any of the thousands of investigative journalists in the country smelling what would be the Pulitzer prize winning story of the decade.

have you not read the whistle-blowers thread? the article has been written -heres a sample and the link
**********************************************************************
Honesty is a tricky business. What happens when an honest assessment of the situation actually works against your ultimate objective? What do you do then, when one of life's little riddles sneaks up and bites you on the butt?Well, first you examine your long term objectives. What is your ultimate purpose? What is it you are trying to do? And finally, what the heck are we here for, anyway?

Then you review the short term goal. What is it I was trying to accomplish? And does that immediate achievement justify sitting on facts you suspect to be true, but don't dare say? And ultimately, will aspiring toward the short term goal actually work against your long term objective?

More to the point — and in fact exactly on it — is my perspective on the events of September 11, 2001, the day the world changed. Or, as I have said in the title of my booklet, "The Day America Died."

I remember that day all too well. I was standing in front of my TV. I had just awakened and flipped it on, intending to zap the clicker to ESPN to catch the latest sports news, a typical daily habit that occurs just before I stumble into the kitchen to make my coffee. By chance, the tube was set to NBC, where the plastic Today show commentators were talking about a plane that had crashed into the World Trade Center. So I never changed the channel. I just stood there, eyelids glued apart, and watched as plane number two glided into the south tower, and into history.

I just stood there, I don't know for how long. Eventually I turned around, made the coffee, and listened to the aghast commentary of the NBC crew. I don't remember now what it was triggered my next verbal outburst, whether it was Katie Couric reporting the government saying it was Osama bin Laden who was behind the attacks, or some vaguer speculation about Arab terrorists.

I only know I turned around, stalked into the living room, and then with the most certain self-assured vehemence I have ever shown in my life, started bellowing: "No way! No freaking way!"

I knew then, right then and there, that 9/11 was an inside job. That this was not the work of Arab terrorists, unless they played some minor diversionary role in a complex and deliberately confusing cast of characters. That this was done at the behest of the people who control our lives, who wanted to create a stultifying example that would be branded into the minds of the muddled masses in order to create a war mentality to justify their criminal intent to make war on the whole world, and make a handsome profit from it.

The highest, most important leaders in our land, and other countries as well, were behind the scheme to kill thousands of American citizens in order to justify an intensified assault on the oil-producing countries of the Middle East and elsewhere. Time and the telling of hundreds of more lies have only deepened my conviction, and proved it far beyond a reasonable doubt. The plans for these wars were drawn up BEFORE 9/11, and the lies utilized to execute them have become well-established in the public eye, at least for those interested enough to take a look.

So I began to write about it, firing thought cannons into cyberspace that were read by thousands of readers but which had little or no effect on the world at large. Gathering every fact I could from each mind who cared to comment on these matters, I soon amassed an array of speculative evidence from a variety of researchers that convincingly confirmed my initial emotional impressions.

I always thought the government's lies were the best piece of evidence, what with Cheney, Rice, and Myers all saying "we had no idea something like this could happen" and then the FBI announcing the names of ALL the hijackers later in the day. When Bush announced the invasion of Afghanistan as a response to 9/11, it soon became evident that this demonic target-shoot has been planned years before the towers had been hit.

But more tangible evidence quickly followed: Why did the FBI quickly confiscate that videotape from that gas station across the street from the Pentagon that would have clearly shown exactly what hit the Pentagon? Because it would not have verified their story — that is the only reason it could be.

http://warfolly.vzz.net/agents.html

Whistle-blowers thread
more evidence

What really got my goat was the deflection by the government, blaming Canadian border guards for letting some of the terrorists slip past them. I also had an emotional swear filled outburst. It seemed as if they were trying to deflect the blame. Don't you have to visit both immigration offices when traveling between countries. Are Canadians responsible for the US side too? If some one tries to cross and they have all the proper documents then can they stopped? You can't assign blame to people who did their jobs right. Are we in the business of punishing people who are just doing their jobs? You can't fault the terrorists for knowing the rules thats just good trade craft.

Now that's funny! Hmmm...let's see....ten people cataloging let's say 2000 photos and videos (not nearly that many but let's assume it). OK, that's 200 items per person. Now , how many YEARS do you think it would take someone to catalog 200 items???


Let's get really silly and say they catalog one item per day!!!
ONE ITEM!! per day not even counting weekends and holidays is about ONE YEAR!!
We are almost FOUR YEARS past the event!!

Let's get serious here!!!

You can't seriously think I was saying that ten, and only ten, people went through all the evidence.

No, I only used your number as an example. It really goes to illustrate, however, the absurdity of believing the Pentagon story. How can anyone be gullible enough to believe that almost FIVE YEARS after the event, that they cannot locate the videos, and they have never been catalogued!!!!

By the way, I am selling the Empire State Building.....any takers??

NO. But can I lease it and collect the insurance policy after I demolish it?

Sure - we'll tell everyone Bin Laden smashed into it with a cargo plane full of camels!!

I find it interesting that, rather than arguments, all your posts have consisted of nothing but ridicule and mockery for other ideas. Again, this is part of the methodology that focuses on casting doubt, rather than finding answers.

If the videos were lost within the first two weeks when they were cataloging all the evidence, chances are pretty good that they would remain lost, as there would not really be any reason to look for then once the case was over and done with. They get put on a shelf and stay there for five years because no one is interested in them. Of, course, you think that I am gullible and naive, and you will, of course, say as much in yet another mocking post, replete with smileys and LOL, ROFL, and whatnot, so my argument will not carry much weight, but I should think that, if no one in the government is looking for the tapes, then it doesn't matter if its five years or fifty, the tapes are not going to turn up.

Wow, lots of great points mentioned in that video. I personally liked the picture of the highway the plane (or whatever) flew over, with all the cars on their sides! Amazing...

When I first watched all the footage on TV about the pentagon being hit too, I thought the hole in the building was a bit small for a large plane, but I just assumed I didn't know the whole story and maybe the real damage was further inside the building or something. They really didn't show much of the Pentagon footge on TV at all, they were too busy overemphasizing the Trade Center footage.

Yes, all is very suspicious.

You have it backwards - obviously you have ignored or forgotten the facts I have been bringing up to support my arguments. I also post links to back up what I am saying. Rather it is you and the "official story" believers who are continually basing your arguments on nothing but your "opinion", with little to nothing factual supporting your case.
I have posted the FOIA request and response to show the absurdity of the Pentagon explanation. I also negated your argument regarding NORAD responsibilities before 9/11, which I am re-posting since you seem to think I post no evidence to back up my claims. I think your "methodology" of opinion over factual evidence and links to same is the one most typical for your side of the ENTIRE 9/11 argument.



SINCE YOU BELIEVE THE "METHODOLOGY" OF MY ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLELY ON RIDICULE OF YOUR OPINION, I EXTEND TO YOU A CHALLENGE TO ONLY ARGUE YOUR CASE BASED SOLELY ON THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE OF THE EVENTS PERTAINING TO 9/11. I HAVE YET TO SEE A SHRED OF PROOF THAT A CAVE-DWELLING OSAMA BIN LADEN MASTERMINDED SUCH A DIABOLICALLY CLEVER PLAN - WITH 19 ARAB HIJACKERS CARRYING X-ACTO KNIVES, ABLE TO MAKE THE WORLD'S FOREMOST MILITARY POWER, WITH A DEFENCE BUDGET IN THE BILLIONS, LOOK LIKE LARRY, MOE AND CURLY.
BTW, YOU CAN EXCUSE EVERYTHING AS "INCOMPETENCE" ONLY SO FAR BEFORE IT DOES BECOME JUSTLY SUBJECT TO MOCKERY AND RIDICULE.

Other than of course his admission!

That is another US Gov't lie. Below is the video of "Osama" making his admission of guilt....

Now let's compare the "Osama" on the tape with the real thing....


Here's a link to view the video excerpts ....
Pseudo Osama

Next "evidence" ??

i wondered where ya were turbo.you know how i feel on conspiracies,but there is no way they could have seized every recorded video/image that day.personally,i think it was a plane,but i thought the cubs were a shoe in to win the series a few years back too.

hey,osama looks like the late marvin gaye in these photos!seriously though,i do'nt think it looks like the same person at all.

HAHA! Hi openmind! We've had our differences - gotta give you all the credit for meeting my opinions halfway. I'll extend the same to you by saying there ARE flaws in the system, even though IMO not nearly enough of them to explain the "Osama did it" story.

yeah man,but we behaved like true gentlemen and put that sh** in the past.our government,and some of the things we do over here are tremendously flawed.but
not all of them can be explained so easily and quickly.i still say that's marvin gaye playing osama in that video.

Is that a formal debate challenge?

I would think so.

I would still like the answer to

Who didn't? Anyone who could jump on the bandwagon. The advertising companies made a mint for themselves and their clients.

Sure - what do you say?

Sounds good to me, but I'm booked for one debate in a weeks time, so it would have to be after that one.

Shall it be Conspiracy: Fact or Fiction?

Excellent, as Mr. Burns would say. PM me after your debate and we'll do it.

the one part of the 911 attacks i think is really lack in explanation is the fact the hijackers were able to over take the plane,with box cutters.they had to have something else,what was stopping the passengers from rushing them and overtaking them?they had them out numbered at least 10-1,and some of the guys on the planes were martial arts experts.that is the one thing i have always had a big problem with in all of this!

Sounds quite general - are you wanting to debate about ALL conspiracies being fact or fiction or 9/11 as fact or fiction?

In fact there were apparently many military personnel on board, which makes the story even less credible. I mean, think about how believable it would be for them to all sit and do nothing against a few jokers with box cutters.

and even if they did just have knives,they were still outnumbered at least 3-1.
i have never heard any explanation on this ever,have you turbo?if i'm on a plane,and i know i'm gonna die anyway,there is nothing stopping me from at least attempting to defend myself,ya know?

IMO, the hostages were hesitant to take any action at first because they assumed that it would be just another "land in a foreign country" hijacking. I don't think they realized until later it was a suicide mission.

This pdf file link Manual is to the airlines manual in use since 1994 and was in effect on 9/11. It lists box cutters and pepper spray as prohibited items. The whole issue of the passengers and what happened inside the airplanes is really a diversionary story with misleading, false, suppressed and changing information.

The paragraph in bold below is from this link Ashcroft

Ashcroft told ABC News on September 15th that "investigators believed that each of the commandeered planes had been hijacked by groups of three to six men armed with box cutters and plastic knives." Donald Rumsfeld told Fox News on September 16th, that the hijackers used weapons that are distinctively different - - plastic knives." On October 9th, he suggested to Dan Rather on CBS News "plastic knives and the use of a U.S. airliner filled with American people as a missile [were used] to destroy a World Trade Center." On November 7th, he described to Jim Lehrer on PBS " One of our planes is used as a missile to fly into our building and into the World Trade Center. It was beyond one's imagination that plastic knives and our own commercial aircraft filled with our own people would be used as the implement of war."

Really, plastic knives?!?! That's even better, eh openmind? Maybe they were taken from....... the Rumsfeld Family Bar-B-Q!! I thought it was something I just made up as a joke - no wonder they've classified that video!

dont forget that in the pilots cockpit is a panel where the pilot or copilot can enter in a four digit code to instantly alert of a hijacking--not only were they able to supposedly do it with only boxcutters but they were able to somehow take over the cockpits before the code could be entered not once but four times!

Good question. My main objection is to the methodology of conspiracy theorists in general, as opposed to investigative journalists or oversight committees.

What I was proposing was a debate on whether or not 9/11 was a conspiracy based on factual evidence, as I've re-posted here...

SINCE YOU BELIEVE THE "METHODOLOGY" OF MY ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLELY ON RIDICULE OF YOUR OPINION, I EXTEND TO YOU A CHALLENGE TO ONLY ARGUE YOUR CASE BASED SOLELY ON THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE OF THE EVENTS PERTAINING TO 9/11.

I put forth this challenge in response to your accusation of me which was...


I have posted many references with which I support my argument towards the events of 9/11. I make my case with verifiable links and documentation. I have noticed, however, your "methodology" includes making claims which have no basis in fact, and no links to support them. One example is this...



Can you say something such as this and really claim you are making a credible argument?

Do you really believe the Gov't official story of 9/11?
If you do, then you must have evidence to support this - so can you post any links so I can verify them?

Or are you only complaining about how conspiracies are supported, not that you believe the Gov't story?

If you would like to compare evidence regarding the events of 9//11 pro- and anti- Gov't official story, as would be done in a court of law, I will gladly accept to a debate.

No disrespect has been intended towards you, btw. After presenting posts with evidence, the counter arguments from most have lacked any valid evidence, or were just a snide comment, so I can get a bit snarky and sarcastic. For this I apologize, as you were not the one making the infantile posts. If you search back, I would hope you can see from my past posts on the 9/11 threads that they are based on facts and not on mocking the opinions of others

The problem then would be that I would be forced to try to prove that something doesn't exist, since I do not believe sufficient evidence. I hope you understand my reluctance to try and prove a negative.



In my defense, I made it absolutely clear that conspiracy theories are the one place where my normal love of methodology takes a backseat to close-mindedness. I would like to think that I have a pretty good record concerning credibility in other subjects.



Beliefs require no support nor evidence. They simply are. What I can do is demonstrate why the government version is the most likely.



Got it in one



Hmm...that actually does sound interesting...innocent till proven guilty, correct?



I agree completely and I apologize for judging you based only on what I saw since I joined the thread a few pages ago. Since we both seem to have made the same error, I think we can just call it even.

That I would like to hear......

If you would like to compare evidence regarding the events of 9//11 pro- and anti- Gov't official story, as would be done in a court of law, I will gladly accept to a debate.


Absolutely. You prove Bin Laden and the 19 hijackers are guilty(remember, they haven't been proven guilty to this day), while I prove the US Gov't is guilty. Let me know......

I'll get back to you. Again, my objective is to discuss the methodology, not the actual conspiracy (since I have a limited interest in it).

Why are you not interested in if your Gov't is guilty of murdering it's own people? Doesn't all the disturbing evidence implicating the Gov't concern you into wanting to know the truth? Your lack of interest implies that you ascribe to the notion that "ignorance is bliss". Maybe "what you don't know can't hurt you" applies to some cases, but not to this one.

Anyway, I shall await your decision. Cheers.

I would most definitely be interested if this were to prove to be the case for 9/11. I just haven't seen anything that would distinguish this alleged conspiracy from the many others flying around.



I don't find it to be credible evidence. There are just too many arguments that are very easily explained by what the common story is that would become extremely complex to carry out if they were done intentionally. It is these arguments that create my disinterest in the other that might otherwise give the conspiracy some credibility.



I don't suppose I merit consideration that I simply disagree that a conspiracy exist? Perhaps my disagreement with your conclusion is all you need to think of someone as being blissfully ignorant, and more, willingly so?

Thank you your exactly right

Whay does that mean - that you bunch everything from UFO's to chupacabras to 9/11 all together as conspiracy nonsense? If so, you have not looked into 9/11 with any degree of seriousness. I might agree with that if you were to put the Gov't 9/11 fable into that bunch!!

Now this has me shaking my head - the Gov't 9/11 story has to be one of the silliest made up fables ever. I don't even know where to begin to prove how ridiculous it is.. first, why don't you show me the links to prove their story?

Well, it's been admitted by yourself that your lack of interest has led you to carelessly make statements like the one regarding the fact no steel framed building had ever collapsed prior to 9/11. It makes it seem like you don't want to delve into the details of what happened, and therefore remain unaware of all the facts. I come to this conclusion based on the way you don't seem skeptical enough to investigate the provable lies of the official story.