Is an opinion! I happen to agree there is NO credible evidence of a Government plot

No, I'm fairly skeptical about pretty much everything. My blind spot is pretty much limited to government conspiracies. Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the government has done many things that it has tried to keep away from the general public, however, the manner in which the 9/11 conspiracies have been presented in this forum are more indicative (to me) of wishful thinking than actual investigative effort.



Like I said, my objection is to the methodology. I'm just not that curious about the actual conspiracy.



Heck, I've admitted that from the very beginning. I simply don't find these things credible. Very little research involved, so feel absoilutely free to call it my opinion.

And, if you wouldlike to call it my opinion, I maintain that fire has indeed been responsible for the collapse of steel framed buildings, both prior and after 9/11.

It was mentioned "often" during the 911 attacks that the heat generated by the fire would have incinerated anything INCLUDING METAL FRAMES!

By your method of reasoning, with no facts or evidence to support your opinion, you are basically content to blow smoke. Your argument may as well be "I maintain that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Jolly Green Giant are all living together in a grass-roofed hut somewhere in the Archipelagos - in my opinion. There is simply nothing to deny that statement.

That is why I asked to a debate based on proof, as in a court of law. Factual evidence. Empirical data. Precedence. The Laws of Physics. The Properties of Steel and Hydrocarbon-based Fire. Suppression of, Confiscation of, and illegal and deliberate Destruction of, 9/11 Evidence.

Otherwise it's blowin' smoke.....

Blowin' smoke........care to prove what you 've posted?

During the event the media was interviewing many persons some of which discussed the fall of buildings one such person (I forgot who I didnt realize that the time someone whould make such wild claim) that the heat from jet fuel and following fire would be so intense it would incerrate anything and that many persons would be gone with NO evience they were even there. To follow that up a computer diagram was shown on screen and how the tremendous heat would melt the steel frame and force collaspe of towers. So theres your proof.

Now, don't be insulting. I will never ask that anyone prove a negative. That's just...ugh. Proving that steel buildings have collapsed due to fire is not the same as finding nothing to deny that three corporate golden geese are living together.

You do however continue to harp on the exact same thing over and over again. This is my opinion because I have not supported it. I simply don't find it worthy of my time. Really, your insitence that this is my opinion is pretty redundant. It's the same thing that I have been saying for the past two pages. Get over it already. Wait for the debate, assuming we can agree what to debate on.



The thing of it is that we are going to have to set a limit on what is to be presented (admission of evidence, if you will) due to the time and page constraints. Essentially, I see you as trying to show that there is reason to believe in a conspiracy, while I show that both the evidence supports the given explanation, as well as show that your arguments are meeting the expected points of a conspiracy theorist, as opposed to an investigative reporter. If there is no limit to the arguments that can be presented, all you have to do to win is jump from one to the other without definitly proving anything, and simply win through the process of casting doubt (or blowing smoke, depending what your point of view on the evidence is). Obviously, I have no reason to want to enter a debate under those condition.

The question, then, would be which pieces of evidence you would want to introduce. I recommend, assuming an opening page, a closing page, and five content pages, that you pick five pieces of clearly defined events to support your case. Does that sound reasonable?

I think I can work with that...so let's say, for example, insider trading, the collapse of WTC 1, 2 and 7 (three events), the identification of Bin Laden and his 19 hijackers. I will provide evidence of insider trading by CIA honcho Buzzy Krongard, the collapses of WTC 1,2 and 7 as only possible in the way they did through explosives, and that there is NO evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11 and that they are lying about 19 hijackers as the perpetrators of the 9/11 events. Not this being my official list, but something in this vein. What do you think?

TURBO ,ill never trust you again.you told me you would'nt tell everybody i found the jolly green giant,santa clause,the tooth fairy,the easter bunny,and jojo the dog faced assboy alive!and it's at michael jackson's neverland ranch,not some exotic island. (have a great night my friend)

A few questions:

1) The purpose of insider trading is to show motive?

2) Bin Laden et al: Set up, framed, or nothing at all to do with it?

Un-officially, I can't think of any major objections to this.

other than none of those points are credible

Sorry, dude, I totally forgot. Man, I could just kick myself! Listen....I'll get you that Rumsfeld Bar-B-q video...it's the least I can do!

Motive and especially prior knowledge.
Bin Laden as the "boogyman", having nothing to do with it. The "hijackers" as patsy decoys for the real story (a la Oswald as the patsy).

If it's a go, let me know. .

So your proof is an interview with some guy on some station who said the fire was so intense it would melt the steel and evaporate people? Thanks - you've convinced me!

Sounds good to me. I'll Call disinterested and set up up, say, a couple of weeks from now (maybe more; I have a presentation I have to write, as well as another debate I need to do)?

A plane hit the pentagon, since the pentagon has very very strong walla, the wings did not damage the walls, but the nose planteditself into the ground floor of the pentagon, you know why it hit the groud floor? ever hear of a nose dive? It did a nose dive, from 30 feet to groundlevel, thus hitting the GROUND skidding across grass and raming its big fusalauge in the building, and the kenetic energy of its speed and impact transfered to the walls, decimating them.

So if it hit the ground and skidded to the building dano why is there no marks on the ground?

Good stuff - I'll await your go-ahead.

i beleive it was a plane,but if somebody with unlimited funds wished to blame it on something else,in today's new world,they probably could.

I just find it hard to believe that a cave-dweller and some of his 3rd world nutjob buddies could overcome the united state's department of defense and calmy just fly on into the WORLD TRADE CENTER and the PENTAGON undetected...sorry, I don't buy that.

Because its so simple it was unexpected. Plans were found in Phillipines (I think) of this exact plan from Al Cada.

c'mon the truth is that the govt had devised the plan long ago timothy McNiven
not only that but in the pilot episode of "the lone gunman"(also before 9/11) its admitted that cia had suggested the very scenario of remote controled jumbo jets being flown into the wtc--not only that but to top it off,after bush claimed that no one had ever thought of that before(using planes as missles),cheney,on 9/11/01,used the very scenario(planes as missles attacking the wtc) to throw the good patriotic military personel off gaurd in operation tripod II--he was in command of norad and issued the stand-down --how can you be so complacent?

I think it is just too hard for some people to believe that people within our government could pull off something like this...if you are one of those people then just remember the litmus test of president Kennedy...his head was blown off! Amazing new information has come out about it and shows even more clearly that there exists within our government a group so influential as to be untouchable...if this group could have Kennedy killed and then cover it up for 40 years, then I think 9-11 would be childs play...there is just way too much evidence to at least prove they knew...and now with the Downing Street Memo out I think its clear they used 9-11 as an excuse to go to war with a country that had nothing to do with the attacks. So we were never really legitamately lookinbg for the terrorists in the first place. Al Queda is a made up boogeyman. All this so called Patriotic
legislation just makes it harder to investigate Bush and Co. If I was a Republican I would be outraged...but I can't be a Republican because that would mean I would fall short of the learning curve...

And isn't it just convenient that it was the american government(read CIA here) trained and equiped Osamma from the beginning. Taught him all he needed to know about being a terrorist. Then they use him for a lightning rod and poof he magically disappears. Still can't find him?

Here is something to think about. With the clip it says one of the cameras that caught whatever hit the Pentagon said that people say the video several times b4 the FBI was there. So to end this debate you just need to find those people who saw the tape.

i think everybody suspects but are still too scared to lash out.....How many votes did bus not get in his election rigged game show???


If a plane crashed into the pentagon the fuel explosion would have at least scratched the lawn. The only damage to the lawn was caused by tye tracks from the firefighters...naughty boys....

yeha no kiddin no singe marks or anything.

It is a fact that the first Bush administration fought side by side osama bin laden against the soviets and supplied him and his forces with american weapons. You're telling me we can get an Iraqi dictator with a military behind him and lots of power, yet we can't find a powerless cave-dweller who's not even doing a good job of hiding? Please...

Sure, just like the 19 "hijackers" overtook 4 commercial jets with their plastic picnic knives, and deftly flew them into both towers and the pentagon, while the billion dollar American military/defense program was shown to be the equivalent of......

The Pentagon 9/11/01 - "Quiet, you numbskulls, ...we're in big trouble this time!"

"Hey guys, I think Osama ran THIS way!!"

... Now that's satire....cool









Saddam's SOS transmitter was apparantly to weak on the preset US channel to be picked up sooner....

on the knives on plane issues,i'd like to think that if any of the people on the plane like that were on there,and all we were being hijacked with only blades and casecutters to have to worry about,i would at least gang rush the sobs,would'nt anybody?in all of this,i just can't see how 4 planeloads of people did'nt at least try to fight for their lives harder!!!!!!!!!!!that's the biggest question in all of this.

At that time, whenever a plane had been hijacked, the hijackers weren't out to destroy the plane. They usually flew it to a neutral location and at best held the passengers hostage unless some demands were met. Nowadays yes almost anybody would try to rush the hijackers. Also it is highly possible that most of the passengers didn't even know they were hijacked. Any struggle would have been in first class which is segregated from the rest of the plane and has fewer people in it anyway. Also this was before the cockpit had heavy locks on the doors. There may not have been much of a struggle until they were already in the cockpit and then they are in a defensible position.

Hey, haven't you ever been cut with one of them picnic knives? They are KILLER, man! If they were smarter, they woulda rushed 'em with books - those paper cuts are deadly as sin!!

Picnic knives ha ha it was box cutters and if you have been cut by a box cutter you would know they are VERY sharp

Not according to Rummy - from this link....Picnic Knives are WMD's!
Donald Rumsfeld told Fox News on September 16th, that the hijackers used weapons that are distinctively different - - plastic knives." On October 9th, he suggested to Dan Rather on CBS News "plastic knives and the use of a U.S. airliner filled with American people as a missile [were used] to destroy a World Trade Center." On November 7th, he described to Jim Lehrer on PBS " One of our planes is used as a missile to fly into our building and into the World Trade Center. It was beyond one's imagination that plastic knives and our own commercial aircraft filled with our own people would be used as the implement of war."

To the best of my recollection, Rummy won an Academy Award that year for not even letting a smirk cross his face, let alone a huge guffaw!!

hah

firstly it was mostly the Reagan Administration
secondly Osama arrived late in the Afghan/Soviet war, the US train and supplied the mujahadeen fighters, just not Osama and his chronies, i think you'll be hard pressed to find any actual evidence of that. Of course it was indeed a bad thing to help the Afghan forces to stop the Soviet Invasion wasn't it?



you'd be surprised but people don't normally do that, basvally our behviour is often dictated by the others around us. People would be looking around to see how others are reacting to the situation and in turn will react in a similar manner. Everyone thinks they would act the hero but when the moment comes thongs end up a little different.

Donald Rumsfeld told Fox News on September 16th, that the hijackers used weapons that are distinctively different - - plastic knives."

Or, it could be everyone else though they were disgruntled because they ordered Salmon, but got the BBQ Chicken instead!!

whats your point? people in groups act irrationally

although i do find it difficult to believe they had just plastic knives (or maybe the knives were actually sharp) because didn't they kill the pilots?

Can't you distinguigh joking from serious?

Text can make it somewhat difficult

Panther, do you mind telling me were you got this info? I just need to know.

maybe they were all planes that did hit but each plane had a hidden bomb on them to help take town the towers and such

he made it up--its disinfo--heres a good reference detailing the source for the 9/11 plan
*****************************************************************
The Perfect Terrorist Plan
To Level The Twin Towers
Created In 1976
By Greg Szymanski

Our own U.S. Army devised a plan commissioned by Congress to bring down the WTC using commercial airliners and box cutters as weapons.

The laundry list of terrorist warnings handed to the Bush administration prior to 9/11 makes the President and others look like "bumbling idiots or a bunch of conniving criminals" responsible for the mass murders at the Twin Towers and in Afghanistan and Iraq.

These are the harsh words of Timothy McNiven, an outspoken critic of the President's handling of 9/11 and a 29-year U.S. Defense Department operative still under contract with the government.

He says not only did the Bush administration purposely ignore Al Q'aida in the months preceding the WTC attacks, but the situation is even more disturbing, considering his military unit way back in 1976 devised a mock terrorist attack of the Twin Towers exactly like what occurred on 9/11.

McNiven, who first went public in an affidavit included in a 9/11-related federal conspiracy (RICO) lawsuit filed against Bush and others in 2004, claims his unit was ordered to create the "perfect terrorist plan" using commercial airliners as weapons and the Twin Towers as their target.

The publicized version of the study, commissioned by Congress, was to identify security lapses and submit corrective measures to lawmakers. However, McNiven claims the real purpose of the study was to brainstorm how to pull off the perfect terrorist attack using the exact same 9/11 scenario.

The study, commissioned to C-Battery 2/81st Field Artillery, U.S. Army, stationed in Strassburg, Germany in 1976, specifically devised the scenario of the Twin Towers being leveled by Middle Eastern terrorists using commercial airliners and even plastic box cutters to bypass security.

To silence critics, McNiven has successfully passed a credible lie detector test regarding his participation in the study as well as other specific orders given to him by his superiors in case of a real attack on the Twin Towers.

The head of the 1976 mock terrorist plan was Lt. Michael Teague of Long Island, who McNiven says was given specific orders by higher-ups in the military to use the Twin Towers as the terrorist target.

McNiven said he has been unable to contact Lt. Teague, but was interested in his opinion now that "the 9/11 attacks happened the way we planned them in 1976."

"I remember Lt. Teague changed the scenario of the supposed study from a 100 story building to the Twin Towers," recalled McNiven, emphasizing that Lt. Teague was acting on specific orders from unknown superiors.

"He then said he thought it was very strange to be asked to devise a plan to blow up your own home town. But as I watched the Twin Towers really collapse on the morning of September 11th, I realized I was watching the very same thing we devised in the 1976."

Since that ominous realization, McNiven has devoted his entire life to alerting the American public about the similarities between 9/11 and the 1976 study without much success, his story basically being ignored by politicians and the mainstream media.

"Why am I doing this? Why have I spent every waking hour trying to bring this story to the American people?" asked McNiven, claiming he still is following a strange direct military order given to him more than 25 years ago.

"During the course of the terrorist plan we were devising, I made the statement to Lt. Teague that if the WTC was ever attacked like we planned, I'd go public. I was then physically assaulted and told never to reveal anything we were doing regarding the Twin Towers."

However, about a week later a strange turn of events occurred. For no apparent reason, McNiven claims his superiors completely changed their minds.

"I was given the direct order that if the Twin Towers were ever attacked the way we discussed in the 1976 study, I was to do everything in my power to bring the similarities to the attention of the American people.

"I have no idea why they changed their minds, but I was then emphatically told that this order was never to be rescinded - never - because those who would rescind it, would be the very same people who turned against the American people[B]."

Besides taking a lie detector to verify his story, McNiven has made public a detailed list of about 40 names[/B] of those individuals who took part in the mock terrorist plan, including Col. Robert Morrison, Maj. Joe Dipiero, Sgt. Middleton, Sgt. Arroyo and many others.

"There were also people from the Defense Department and the CIA who were monitoring the study, but I wasn't able to get their names," he added.

Some of McNiven's most recent assignments with the Defense Department include work on the Northwest Drug Task Force and various other drug smuggling and weapons trafficking cases.

March 9, 2005
http://www.rense.com/general63/TWIN.HTM

The plans came from an FBI raid about a year before attack and because FBI and CIA did not share info this was forgotten. All this came out shortly after 911

not supporting the claim, just pointing out that the CIA and FBI were legally not allowed to collaborate, some silly law put in place by the clinton admin.

i'm convinced the fbi could'nt find a hooker in a whorehouse!i do'nt think they alone are the only ones to blame about the 911 attacks,but they damn sure carry a lot of the burden.fbi directo freidman should have listened to fbi terrorist expert john o'neil when he showed him how vulnerable we were to an attack.john o'neil
died in the world trade center on 911 which if louie would have listened,maybe the
whole damn thing would not have happened!!!

I don't think they WANTED to listen to O'Neil - that's why they set him up on 9/11 to die in the towers. Another witness bites the dust!!

Can you enligthen us some more, I want to hear your side of the story. Especially about that bit that they found the plan in the Philippines (in an FBI raid?).

It would be helpful if you can put up a link about it as well. Cheers.

The guys who found the plans were brilliant. I have heard they were also the guys who found the Koran in the trunk of Atta's rental car, and his pristine condition passport, that had flown out of the plane, through a window of the WTC tower, and fluttered harmlessly to the ground a few blocks away!!

I'm sorry - links cannot be supplied. But take my word for it, that's what happened!!

i know a guy who was in a motel near wtc 1 when the second plane flew into it.his
wife told me that there was a sudden burst of blood/body parts that covered up a lot of folks on the ground.there is just no telling how many people were killed by bodies and body parts.