If God came down from heaven and said he was the creator of the universe, and performed all kinds of miracles, would you believe it?
This is mainly for skeptics, but all are welcomed to post any thoughts.
EDIT// Rearranged question a bit.
EDIT// This is the definition of "miracle."
mir·a·cle [mírrək’l]
(plural mir·a·cles)
n
1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is totally amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
It’ll be a miracle if we get there on time.
3. marvelous example of skill: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Full Version: Would you believe?
It would depend. Any nut job could try to decieve people and claim they are 'God', or to be a chosen one, blah blah blah. Happens all the time. So it would take a lot to convince me.
Miracles?
What miracles?
Ok, when I say "miracles" I mean like changing rocks into gold, or chickens into horses.
I'm not talking about cards tricks that magicians do. These types of "miracles" would be the most awesome you have ever seen.
I'm not talking about cards tricks that magicians do. These types of "miracles" would be the most awesome you have ever seen.
mir·a·cle [mírrək’l]
(plural mir·a·cles)
n
1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is totally amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
It’ll be a miracle if we get there on time.
3. marvelous example of skill: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
(plural mir·a·cles)
n
1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is totally amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
It’ll be a miracle if we get there on time.
3. marvelous example of skill: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Skeptics seek truth with evidence and proof, rather than believe completely blindly in whatever story they are told.
If solid undeniable real evidence and proof was presented,ie if god prooved who he was without a shadow of doubt, all real skeptics would believe, no question. Because the truth would be revealed.
Only someone completely closed off would not, and that person would not be a skeptic, he would be a believer, since he believes firmly in his own beliefs and denies all other possible truths, as all believers do.
So, there is little point to this poll.
If solid undeniable real evidence and proof was presented,ie if god prooved who he was without a shadow of doubt, all real skeptics would believe, no question. Because the truth would be revealed.
Only someone completely closed off would not, and that person would not be a skeptic, he would be a believer, since he believes firmly in his own beliefs and denies all other possible truths, as all believers do.
So, there is little point to this poll.
Who was it....(Blackstone maybe?) made a whole island disappear or was it moved? Is that a miracle?
@burnside: correct!
@amalgamut: your encarta defs all could be acts of the mondain.
@amalgamut: your encarta defs all could be acts of the mondain.
I wouldn't believe... If he exists, then so do the others.. the ones who are older then he...
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 01:52 PM)
If solid undeniable real evidence and proof was presented,ie if god prooved who he was without a shadow of doubt, all real skeptics would believe, no question. Because the truth would be revealed.
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Don't you think thats more of your personal opinion?
I might believe....... I just have to see it for myself.....
My God people, I didn't realize this would be that difficult of a question to answer, much less understand.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:57 PM)
Don't you think thats more of your personal opinion?
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No. That is a definition of a skeptic, one who seeks truth rather than accepts whatever story is told to him without proof or evidence. Only blind believers who have their own beliefs and will not consider any others, would not believe.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:58 PM)
My God people, I didn't realize this would be that difficult of a question to answer, much less understand.
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The unforgivable sin. Taking thy Lords name in vain.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 01:59 PM)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:57 PM)
Don't you think thats more of your personal opinion?
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No. That is a definition of a skeptic, one who seeks truth rather than accepts whatever story is told to him without proof or evidence. Only blind believers who have their own beliefs and will not consider any others, would not believe.
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So, basically you are saying that if God did come down and performed all sorts of miracles and said he is God and yadda yadda, all the skeptics would believe it?
QUOTE(zandore @ May 26 2005, 02:00 PM)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:58 PM)
My God people, I didn't realize this would be that difficult of a question to answer, much less understand.
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The unforgivable sin. Taking thy Lords name in vain.
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I know, I know....I'm going to hell.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 12:05 PM)
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 01:59 PM)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:57 PM)
Don't you think thats more of your personal opinion?
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No. That is a definition of a skeptic, one who seeks truth rather than accepts whatever story is told to him without proof or evidence. Only blind believers who have their own beliefs and will not consider any others, would not believe.
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So, basically you are saying that if God did come down and performed all sorts of miracles and say he is God and yadda yadda, all the skeptics would believe it?
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a real god would not proclaim itself a god!
a real god would be self-evident without proclamation!
Skeptics would believe anything if there was concrete undeniable proof of it's existance Amalgamut. They are skeptics of a certain thing because there is no concrete proof.
Present proof that cannot be denied, and a Skeptic will believe.
Present proof that cannot be denied, and a Skeptic will believe.
If this ever happened then I probably would believe it...What other explanation would there be?
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 02:07 PM)
a real god would not proclaim itself a god!
a real god would be self-evident without proclamation!
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Is this question really that hard for you to answer? Tell me, would you answer "yes", "no" or "maybe?"
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 12:08 PM)
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 02:07 PM)
a real god would not proclaim itself a god!
a real god would be self-evident without proclamation!
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Is this question really that hard for you to answer? Tell me, would you answer "yes", "no" or "maybe?"
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if it were self evident, then the answer would be self evident!
QUOTE
If God came down from heaven and said he was the creator of the universe, and performed all kinds of miracles, would you believe it?
1.) If it was a male, claiming to be "god", no I would not believe. The first evidence of Deity discovered alluded to the female icon. If it wasn't a she I wouldn't believe.
If you therefore amended the question and asked, "If the Goddess came down....."
I'd ask; which one?
And then that chic would have some serious explaining to do!
whatever its gender, if a being appeared and claimed to be "THE" creator of everything, it would have to present unimpeachable evidence of its divinity. Then I would believe.
Some people seem to think that skeptics are non believers for the sheer hell of it. That is not the case, for me at any rate.
'Tell a man that there are a hundred billion stars in the universe, and he will nod his head and believe. Show that same man a "wet paint" sign, and he just has to reach out and touch for himself.'
Some people seem to think that skeptics are non believers for the sheer hell of it. That is not the case, for me at any rate.
'Tell a man that there are a hundred billion stars in the universe, and he will nod his head and believe. Show that same man a "wet paint" sign, and he just has to reach out and touch for himself.'
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 08:05 PM)
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 01:59 PM)
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 03:57 PM)
Don't you think thats more of your personal opinion?
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No. That is a definition of a skeptic, one who seeks truth rather than accepts whatever story is told to him without proof or evidence. Only blind believers who have their own beliefs and will not consider any others, would not believe.
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So, basically you are saying that if God did come down and performed all sorts of miracles and said he is God and yadda yadda, all the skeptics would believe it?
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Of course the majority of skeptics would believe it. Skeptics don't just believe stuff because somebody said so. They look at likelyhood and/or evidence.
If god sat on a cloud and started to talk to the whole world with his unlimited vocal abilities then who would not believe that it was god?
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 07:49 PM)
Ok, when I say "miracles" I mean like changing rocks into gold, or chickens into horses.
I'm not talking about cards tricks that magicians do. These types of "miracles" would be the most awesome you have ever seen.
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I'm not talking about cards tricks that magicians do. These types of "miracles" would be the most awesome you have ever seen.
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well changing objects into other objects, creating diamonds out of thin air, changing a banana into an apple and more is all theoretically possible by changing the atoms around (molecular manufacturing). So does that mean humans are becoming god because these seem like miracles?
Evidently whoa, Amalgamut was under the impression that skeptics are people that don't believe in certain things because they have their own belief system and simply dismiss anything else.
Unaware, of course, that that is the full definition of a religious believer, who denies evidence over blind faith.
Hope we cleared that up.
Unaware, of course, that that is the full definition of a religious believer, who denies evidence over blind faith.
Hope we cleared that up.
QUOTE(whoa182 @ May 26 2005, 03:38 PM)
well changing objects into other objects, creating diamonds out of thin air, changing a banana into an apple and more is all theoretically possible by changing the atoms around (molecular manufacturing). So does that mean humans are becoming god because these seem like miracles?
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Can a human point his finger and make gold out of thin air?
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 03:48 PM)
Evidently whoa, Amalgamut was under the impression that skeptics are people that don't believe in certain things because they have their own belief system and simply dismiss anything else.
Unaware, of course, that that is the full definition of a religious believer, who denies evidence over blind faith.
Hope we cleared that up.
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Unaware, of course, that that is the full definition of a religious believer, who denies evidence over blind faith.
Hope we cleared that up.
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There is no "evidence" to suggest that God does not exist.
There is no evidence to suggest he does either.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 01:48 PM)
QUOTE(whoa182 @ May 26 2005, 03:38 PM)
well changing objects into other objects, creating diamonds out of thin air, changing a banana into an apple and more is all theoretically possible by changing the atoms around (molecular manufacturing). So does that mean humans are becoming god because these seem like miracles?
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Can a human point his finger and make gold out of thin air?
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can this god show himself?
lets first see if your god can appear before we worry about anything else he can do.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 03:50 PM)
There is no evidence to suggest he does either.
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QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 03:50 PM)
Unaware, of course, that that is the full definition of a religious believer, who denies evidence over blind faith.
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You said a believer denies evidence.
Tell me, where is the evidence that suggests otherwise?
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 03:50 PM)
can this god show himself?
lets first see if your god can appear before we worry about anything else he can do.
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Thats why in the question I said "If God came down and...."
Did I say he was here right now? No. I'm asking a question.
And you still haven't answered it.
If there is no evidence to suggest he exists, why would i need to show you evidence to suggest otherwise?
Things that have no evidence shown to exist, need proving to actually exist before evidence is needed to show it does not. if there is not a scrap of evidence of a certain thing existing, then it does not exist. Why would i need to present evidence to show something with no evidence of existing, actually existing?
If you wanted to believe in things that have no evidence supporting their existance, why don't you just go ahead and believe in faries and goblins and flying horses and 50 foot women.
I don't need to prove they don't exist, because their is no evidence to support their existance.
Things that have no evidence shown to exist, need proving to actually exist before evidence is needed to show it does not. if there is not a scrap of evidence of a certain thing existing, then it does not exist. Why would i need to present evidence to show something with no evidence of existing, actually existing?
If you wanted to believe in things that have no evidence supporting their existance, why don't you just go ahead and believe in faries and goblins and flying horses and 50 foot women.
I don't need to prove they don't exist, because their is no evidence to support their existance.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 04:03 PM)
If there is no evidence to suggest he exists, why would i need to show you evidence to suggest otherwise?
Things that have no evidence shown to exist, need proving to actually exist before evidence is needed to show it does not. if there is not a scrap of evidence of a certain thing existing, then it does not exist. Why would i need to present evidence to show something with no evidence of existing, actually existing?
If you wanted to believe in things that have no evidence supporting their existance, why don't you just go ahead and believe in faries and goblins and flying horses and 50 foot women.
I don't need to prove they don't exist, because their is no evidence to support their existance.
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Things that have no evidence shown to exist, need proving to actually exist before evidence is needed to show it does not. if there is not a scrap of evidence of a certain thing existing, then it does not exist. Why would i need to present evidence to show something with no evidence of existing, actually existing?
If you wanted to believe in things that have no evidence supporting their existance, why don't you just go ahead and believe in faries and goblins and flying horses and 50 foot women.
I don't need to prove they don't exist, because their is no evidence to support their existance.
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You said that a believer denies evidence.
and believers do deny evidence that goes against their belief structure.
lets just look at christianity for example: how many ways has it adapted itself to avoid irrelevency? how many ways do christians come up with to explain away things like errors and contradictions in the bible?
lets just look at christianity for example: how many ways has it adapted itself to avoid irrelevency? how many ways do christians come up with to explain away things like errors and contradictions in the bible?
QUOTE(whoa182 @ May 26 2005, 04:37 PM)
Of course the majority of skeptics would believe it. Skeptics don't just believe stuff because somebody said so. They look at likelyhood and/or evidence.
If god sat on a cloud and started to talk to the whole world with his unlimited vocal abilities then who would not believe that it was god?
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If god sat on a cloud and started to talk to the whole world with his unlimited vocal abilities then who would not believe that it was god?
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I will be the ultra skeptic!
Hell no it would take more than that for me to believe, what if this so called God is just another being with super natural abilities (a human concept) it most likely can be within the laws of physics, chemistry and biology of the universe for a being to be out of the ordinary.
How would we know for sure it is THE God and not just a God. What evidence could there be for somebody to prove their the God that created the universe. It would be your definition or your religious definition however, if you think a being performing miracles like turning water into wine or moving mountains is your God, so be it!
It does not mean this god or being created the universe no matter what miracle it can perform, even if it can give me paradise, hell, or create a universe in front of me, it just means this being is a God not necessarily my God.
I think it would be impossible to convince me that your are my god if you came up to me and said behold by powers, cool fire works but big deal, what do want from me, a dollar for the show!
QUOTE
You said that a believer denies evidence.
Yes i did, and i don't see how that has anything to do at all with what i said.
If there is no evidence in the first place, there is nothing to deny, and it is up to those who put their faith blindly in something that has no evidence of existing to prove it's existance. Try reading what i said, because if you're trying to trap me, you've got to try alot harder than that. At least SHOW the evidence if you have any.
Anyway, evidence of god is disputed all over this board, i myself have gone over it countless times, and it is not the topic of this thread.
So let's get back on topic, to the question at hand.
So let's get back on topic, to the question at hand.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 04:15 PM)
At least SHOW the evidence if you have any.
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I NEVER claimed to have any evidence.
Well then, thank you for proving my point.
To bring the topic back on track, incase i was too vague for you, i voted yes.
To bring the topic back on track, incase i was too vague for you, i voted yes.
QUOTE(Super Pancake @ May 26 2005, 04:14 PM)
I will be the ultra skeptic!
Hell no it would take more than that for me to believe, what if this so called God is just another being with super natural abilities (a human concept) it most likely can be within the laws of physics, chemistry and biology of the universe for a being to be out of the ordinary.
How would we know for sure it is THE God and not just a God. What evidence could there be for somebody to prove their the God that created the universe. It would be your definition or your religious definition however, if you think a being performing miracles like turning water into wine or moving mountains is your God, so be it!
It does not mean this god or being created the universe no matter what miracle it can perform, even if it can give me paradise, hell, or create a universe in front of me, it just means this being is a God not necessarily my God.
I think it would be impossible to convince me that your are my god if you came up to me and said behold by powers, cool fire works but big deal, what do want from me, a dollar for the show!
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Yes, even if he came himself, many would still not believe.
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 04:10 PM)
and believers do deny evidence that goes against their belief structure.
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Like what?
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 04:10 PM)
lets just look at christianity for example: how many ways has it adapted itself to avoid irrelevency?
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Like?
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 26 2005, 04:10 PM)
how many ways do christians come up with to explain away things like errors and contradictions in the bible?
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There are no contradictions. People just arent fully reading the scriptures (much less comprehending them).
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 04:33 PM)
Well then, thank you for proving my point.
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Hey no problem. I like to help out in anyway I can.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 04:33 PM)
To bring the topic back on track, incase i was too vague for you, i voted yes.
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Ok, thank you.
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ May 26 2005, 05:34 PM)
Yes, even if he came himself, many would still not believe.
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edit: must rephrase my question.
If you saw what was God to you, how do you know it really is your God, and not just some other being acting like your God?
@amul: lets not hyjack another thread! all i will say is it was not until science had profound evidence of evo that bible followers started talking of the bible fitting evo! if it was evident from the beginning, christians should have been preaching evo for 2000 years! on the other topics, you yourself are a master wordsmith. when somthing has thousands of interpertations there is a chance one of them will fit the bill.
and back on topic as well:
i answered your question:
if a being capable of being a "god" outside of the mind by my def of a god appeared, i would know it to be so based on my def and therefore it would be self evident. it would not nor would it need to announce itself as such! just like if i go outside and see a bear, the bear is self evident. i don't need the bear to say "hey, i am a bear" for me to know it as such!
and back on topic as well:
i answered your question:
if a being capable of being a "god" outside of the mind by my def of a god appeared, i would know it to be so based on my def and therefore it would be self evident. it would not nor would it need to announce itself as such! just like if i go outside and see a bear, the bear is self evident. i don't need the bear to say "hey, i am a bear" for me to know it as such!
Funny thing. What if God (Whatever our definition of him/her/it is), appeared, undisputed, but was totally unlike what believers are expecting, and refuted the organized belief systems. Would you Believers believe then?
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ May 26 2005, 05:19 PM)
Funny thing. What if God (Whatever our definition of him/her/it is), appeared, undisputed, but was totally unlike what believers are expecting, and refurted the organized belief systems. Would you Believers believe then?
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No. I wouldn't believe its the actual God. Why? you ask? Because the only time God will come down again is to fight the battle of armageddon.
This will be the only time he comes.
The topic of this thread is just hypothetical.
Why would god need to fight?
Couldn't he just wave his hand and make any kind of armageddon start or dissapear in the blink of an eye?
Couldn't he just wave his hand and make any kind of armageddon start or dissapear in the blink of an eye?
QUOTE(BurnSide @ May 26 2005, 05:58 PM)
Why would god need to fight?
Couldn't he just wave his hand and make any kind of armageddon start or dissapear in the blink of an eye?
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Couldn't he just wave his hand and make any kind of armageddon start or dissapear in the blink of an eye?
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He did this with the Flood. And the result was the death of many people. In revelation, there is a timespan of 10 1/2 years after the rapture (many think its 7 1/2). This time he uses plagues, and not one huge destructive force. The is the whole process of redemption. He basically gives people a choice. Believe the truth or believe the lie.
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