modern science sees the universe as a dynamic structure.

but.

it was not too long ago the predominant view was that of a static (speaking of forces) universe.

under such a universe, eventually all the "fuel" would be spent and the universe would "die", and no "god" could come along to restart the process....

under more current thought, the universe evolves. under this structure it does not eventually reach burn-out.

now the quandry i see for the believers is that if they reject the universe as a dynamic evolving entity onto itself, they doom it beyond any control any god could ever have. thus they render their own gods to be contrary to what these gods are defined to be. a false arguement is made, and thus gods can not exist.

now if the beleivers accept the universe as a dynamic evolving entity onto itself, then again gods are rendered as pointless extranious concepts added after the fact. since such a universe requires no god, nor could a god realistically fit into such a system, we reach the conclusion that gods are dunsels.

now, if one wishes to label one of the lower binding forces (or all of them) as gods... that is as accurate as one could possibly get to a god-force, but still fails to demonstrate any natures of a god and is extranious to the realities.

man may want gods, the universe does not.

There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
Douglas Adams RIP


The Universe is God. People seem to see God as a separate form the Universe. The evolving Universe is a being all its own. We are apart of its being as our atoms, cells, etc... are a part of us. I have heard people say that we are part of His/Her/Its brain. But I have often wondered if we are different body part. Maybe we are a part of Its ass. I mean does a cell in our ass know it is in our ass. I would hope not; it would be too cruel.

This Universe is not the only one. We live with many dimensions of Universes overlapping each other. That would indicate that there is more than one God. It is possible that there is a whole community of Universe/God beings.

It is late I am tired and must go to bed. Great post, hyper, very logical.

while the construct of "god is the universe" is the most "logical" and "complete" of any god-theories, let me point out to you how it reflects the supersticious/anecdotal thinking process with an example.

we don't fully understand the forces of the universe, so some would now call the universe gods.
we once did not understand the forces of the ocean, and refered to the ocean as a god.
we once did not understand the forces of the sun, and refered to the sun-forces as a god.
....

there is no logical reason to deify the universe(s).

Is not the ocean filled with Life from microbes to great whales, as is the Air, Earth? Life is everywhere. They have found it deep in the rock of the Earth and that is Life in our current concept of Life. There may be forms of Life that are hidden from us because we don't know it as Life at this time. The entire Earth is a living eco sphere that functions as an interconnected living entity. Who are we to say that it does not have a conscious? If it is senescent would that not be a God/dess. Sometimes things as large as the Universe that can not be seen as whole, so its true nature and overall form is hidden from us because we only see a small part of it. We are as the blind men trying to figure out an elephant.
My theory is that God/dess/It is a senescent sum of the interconnection of Life that permeates the Universe. It is therefore Life that creates the God.

We must define God.

yes... the universe may have a consciousness we do not know about. i have tackled that question myself.

yes... there is a great deal we do not know wrt life, the unvierse, and everything.

yes.. all life is interconnected in a system (which contains subsystems)

no... none of that makes anything a god except in the mind of men. false deification is one of the great errors of the mind. understanding, respecting, recognizing your part in,.... are all important. worshipping is silliness. deification is to detract from the very concepts you deify.

Is there a name to this theory or something online that discusses it? It sounds fascinating.

if you like the sound of that, also look up the anthropic principle and its deriviatives

Link to the official Douglas Adams Website (* Located somewhere in hyperspace, we're not sure where )

I think,perhaps the closest theory that relates to the Douglas Adam's universal model (As depicted in his masterpiece "Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" (Imho), is "Chaos Theory". Hope that helps your search.

*edit* Excellent reference Hyper. Here's a link that might assist your research Ausaria; Anthropic Principle (Aka The Goldilocks Story)

I've always been very interested in the Chaos Theory. It explains very easily a concept we often overlook, and perhaps everyone should be educated on the topic - it might make people act more responsibly.

In fact the Theory is effing brilliant.

Good post hyperactive.



Interesting thought.

To me the universe seems like a giant perpetual motion machine. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. So its not even really possible that the universe could burnout.

I like your thoughts on the universe being a constant evolving entity, possibly with a conciousness. I wonder if theres a central point where the conciousness resides that could in a way be called God? Where conciousness is more dense than in other areas of the universe.
Or if 'God conciousness' permeates the entire universe evenly?

Well, I just beleive God does not exist in any deminsions, and does not operate in our universe, therefore he cant be restricted to the physics of our universe and is capable of basically doing anything.

www.godandscience.org

If God was the universe, that would explain how he can see everything XD.

the energy in the universe is concentrated in reletively few places, stars, other hot things, planets. according to the 2nd (IIRC) law of thermodynamics, that energy will eventually be more or less evenly distruibited throughout the universe. so the universe will not burnout, there will just be very little energy availiable to do work with. the universe will still be here, but it will be very cold and lifeless. that is until it rips itself apart.

hyper: just curious, what in what way the universe is evolving? i hope the fundamental forces arent changing. i dont want to wake up one morning and find that my atoms decided to fuse or split apart.

Thats not exactly true, allthough it may appear to be that way. You still have to contend with Zero Point energy. In fact what is considered to be empty space, is actually a seething field of virtually infinite energy. It is said that the volume conatianed within an empty coffee cup in outerspace contains enough energy to boil the earths oceans 7x over!!! So in reality energy is everywhere, and there is a whole heck alot of it, its just not as perceivable as condensed energy, ie.matter. And currently theres no evidence to support the notion that this quantum field of zero point energy is spreading itself out thin, because it seems to exist everywhere in equal abundance.

check out here for more info
The California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics

It is my belief that we are here to experience the perception of separation from GOD.(even though my NDE showed we are not).
My NDE experience showed me the harmony that exists in all things, and how the true essence of God is love. This principle tends for ME to think that our thinking is assed backwards.
I experienced the total sense of love, that surrounded me during my NDE. It was wonderful, beautiful. The connection I felt with everything and everyone was, and still is, indescribable with words. No wonder their are so many different types of religion, each trying to describe what truly is indescribable. There was no opposites, no time, just unbridled love.
Yet I can not shake this thought that this existance too would become boring and mundane.
How will we be challenged and therefore become aware of our own potential?
We all have a need to experience ourselves and to test ourselves. This to me is why we are here, in order to experience the perception of individuality. For me, there is a big difference between sensing our potential and experiencing it.

In the book "Understanding the Grand Design" by Joachim Wolf, he writes:

"Throughout this process, we never cease to be an aspect of God. We have forgotten our real identity, by design, so that we can experience the whole truth when we remember it. Without this cycle of knowing, through seeming separation back to awakening, we would not be able to truly experience our ultimate essence, and neither would God because we are all ONE.
God is driven to create. God must create to experience his own potential. If he did not, God would be just like anyone else with a abundant capability but never uses it. We are helping God to experience self-realization."

This concept is supported in the writings of Kahlil Gibran when he writes:

"And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt that building your city and fashioned all there is in it?
Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else,
And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound.
But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well.
The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it,
And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it.
And you shall see
And you shall hear.
Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf.
For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things"

Having read your posts, and others, shows me what I am doing wrong. I keep believing that I am separate from God, knowing full well that I am not, and that all my experiences here are created by a dream that I do not remember having. This is what drives me to live for life does not dally with yesterday's. I am who I am today, because of my experiences.

Only after experiencing our presumed separation can we experience the magnificence of being one with God.
The spoiled child does not experience life as good because it takes his fortunate circumstances for granted. We are all exposed to the adversities on human existance so we may grow beyond them.

i was talking mainly about heat energy. nothing can use that Zero Point energy to do work with.

Zero point energy seems to be the fundamental energy of all things in material existence. It is the bases of matter, its where matter comes from. It also is the basis of work, because Inertia can be derived from the zero point energy field. Also things like electromagnetic fields, and possibly even gravitaional fields are only possible if this massive energy field exists.

And I quote from the site


This means we can extract energy from the zero point field, and we can do work with that energy. From other sources I have read, things in nature also have the ability to extract energy from the quantum Zero point field. Also certain chemical reaction release an enormous amount of heat energy that cannot be explained by conventional chemistry alone, and is somehow drawing energy out of the zero point energy field. Very cool stuff.

Great post by the way turtle, the illusion of seperation is crucial for experience so that God can come to know itself. And this illusion of seperation, is also one of the primary mechanisms for how the whole universe evolves. It is through polarity and duality that experience is created. This relative framework we live in has been setup so that we can continue to evolve and grow. These same principals apply to the universe and all realities as a whole.