I agree with you. However, none of these fit the description.

People want the end times to come because they want to go to a better place. The end of days subject is exciting to talk about.

As for a "double secret" I would hardly call it a secret. The bible tells us many things of this time. There are seven letters to the churches. The last letter of the churches in the one in this time (the bible states the others have passed.)

Now, this "letter of the church" could last 1 year, or 1,000 years from now. There is really no way to tell.

Now let me get this straight, God the Son said that some of those standing with him would still be alive when he returned - then God the Father (the all knowing, all seeing) came along and said something else....isn't this supposed to be the never changing God? Something here doesn't add up! - Mako

I like that quote at the end! Very fitting! lol We as a whole ARE hard to handle lol I'm just glad my God can control it all- if He couldn't, He wouldn't be a God, right?
I would have to disagree, though, on the fact that the more violence is because of th emore people. I think we have more violence just because society as a whole is more "all about me" and "what can you do for me" and all about material things. Not everyone, but as a whole. People need to be constantly entertained, parents arent disciplining their kids, kids are having kids, adults are acting like kids, kids are trying to be adults, money can buy anything, we want everything. Disasters are more now than ever. Man, I could go on but I dont want to get depressed lol

The 10 commandments were more less rules of that time period. God gave Moses rules to tell the Jewish people.

I must say that I came in early yesterday and voted.

It has always been a personal opinon of mine that any end of time prophecies are not only threatening and unsettling but they can cause unnescisary panic and have been known to actually result in the deaths of many gullible yet innocent people.

Over the years I have been left with lots of questions about this subject....

How is there a good side to revelations and the end times?
Why would any one make so many sacrifices for a God who cannot even guarantee them safe passage?

and most importantly...

Why did God wait until the population had increased to such a size before saying , "righty-ho- you 140,000. Your in.. The other 800,000,000,000. Oops sorry about that." ? When God could have easily destroyed Earth a thousand years ago when only 300,000,000,000, souls would have been lost.

It makes a person teary just to think about that last one.

The entire earth gets redeemed. Revelation is the process to end all evil.

Not sure what you mean here...

Not sure what you mean here.....are you saying that you think only 140,000 people are saved during the tribulation?

And I'm not sure what you mean by 800 billion? and then again 300 billion? Sorry, im confused here.

yes, I noticed that you often become confused when a statement is given that conflicts with you dogma.

Didn't we have this discussion recently, where I asked about the 144,000 to be swept up in the rapture? Your answer was that those were hebrews.

I'll find the post and C&P.

no i don't think so..... it will be a long time until we all die...... Bush is only here for 4 more years anyway..... then we'll survive......

Amalgumut,
Allright I admit I pulled the numbers out of thin air, I actually don't know what the population statisics where one thousand years ago, but I do know that there where significantly less people alive than there are today.

The jehovas witness's believe that there is only a certain amount of room for souls in heaven. Only so many will be accepted the number is something like 140,000 but the actual number is irrelivant. The relevant part is that there are a limited number of seats for worshippers not every-one is going to make it in.

What I want to know is why is God waiting? If the room is limited and god loves all his people why is he waiting, when he could have saved a larger percentage of souls if he had of caused the end of times earlier in history?
..........................
thank-you JMPD the number was 144,000, darn it 4000 out, but as you state they're the hebrews. So if the hebrews get their own end times, that means there is still hope there might be a small room labeled 'pagans' in heaven yet.

Yes, thats why I'm confused as to what she means, hence me asking.

well then Amalgumut, may I ask what your opinon is then?

I love that. I couldn't have answered it any better myownself!

i guess ill add my answer to the question in the OP.
as a preterist (the partial kind), i think that Jesus returned in 70 during the destruction of Jeruselem and much of the prophecy in about the first half Revelations was fufilled then. what lies ahead of us, i do not know.

Of course you may. But what opinion are you referring to exactly?

If it was concerning the end of days I say within 100 years. Now, I could be 100% wrong. In a way, I almost hope I am. Because I know the destruction talked about in revelation is going to be terrible for humanity.

The bible speaks of infinite room in heaven. Heaven itself is basically endless.

I understand why you are asking this question. And it is a good question indeed.

First of all, God has infinite patients. He wants His word to be spread to its maximum potential.

Secondly, God set a time in stone when He will initiate the Rapture. After this, it will trigger the end of times. You will see a mass disapearance of people. The Christian religion is around (im guessing) 1 billion. You will see roughly 75% of these people disapear from the face of the earth (Rapture).

Some will stay, but more than likely they will repent. They will come to means with the Lord.

Thirdly, there is no "maximum number of souls" that may be allowed in heaven. Heaven is eternal and endless. There is room for an infinite number of people.

Regardless of the number of people on earth, all will have a chance for salvation. Billions of people we be preached the word of God during the time of tribulation. Millions (or perhaps billions) will be saved by the blood of Christ. These people who are saved will reign with God forever. The people that worship the beast (antichrist) will not.


God loves the Jews. I like the Jews. They are my brothers. All will have a chance for salvation through the blood of Christ. More Jews will be saved during revelation, however 144,000 signifies the number that will be around that are saved when Christ returns.

Christ will return as "King of the Jews."

During times of tribulation, Antichrist will kill millions of Christians and Jews.

The 144,000 are the Jews that remain alive when Christ returns (7 years after the Rapture).

According to the bible no man will know when the end has come and when Jesus will return. As much as some christians think they know when the end of times has come, they DO NOT know anything. They say the bible is always right and then go against it. They make no sense.

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:18)

Yes...and where exactly does it mention this? Or even lead you to believe this?

Yah, but they are all throughout the Bible and meant for us to follow.......but we (and God) know that many are impossible for us to follow, but, God says that is is the same then, as he is now, and always will be...therefore so is His Word. Just because time changes, dosnt mean right from wrong changes. Like I mentioned before, we have conditioned ourselves to what is ok and what is not...we are too accepting of things we shouldn't be, I think.
Like, 10 years ago, I remember when they played George Michael's "I Want Your Sex" on the radio...they replaced the word "sex" with "love" because they thought it was bad. Nowadays, you can say words that are 10x worse....Back in the 80's, they didnt have commercials for condoms, or would show a certain woman's body parts...now, so much is allowed. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with all that, I am just giving examples of how things have changed. Maybe someday we will accept that women can kill their rapists...or that it will be ok that 12 year olds can have sex with men and have babies...who knows what radicals can come up with and give righteous reason. Just examples here, to extremes for concepts, not reality. lol

In your opinoin does this include Pagans? Or do you believe there are any religions who may not be saved?

Every person on the face of the earth will have a chance to be saved. They will see various signs and wonders from both antichrist and God.

The "144,000" is just the number of the Jews that will be saved when Christ comes to fight armageddon. This is the number that will be alive (physically), and alive (in christ) when he returns. (144,000 is not the total number of people saved during tribulation, it will be much more.)

There will be millions and billions of people that are saved from the point of the rapture till the return of Christ. However, after the Rapture, antichrist will be Satan incarnate, and his forces will kill of anyone that does not take his mark, or worships Christ. Billions of people will be killed. He will not kill everyone, but many will die.

Regardless, all will have the chance to be saved by God (including Pagans) after the rapture. Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Hinduists, Buddists...etc..can all be saved, but they must accept Christ.

this goes back to a comment i made some time ago....

all you have to do to be saved by the christ-god is sell him your soul! it is like a giant bartering game where the only losers are the ones with souls to pawn.

The BIBLE says that even the angles do not know when god will come back so how in the world are we to know if you look back in history these things have been going on forever on in the age of internet and cell phones we have more change of hearing about these things! it is also away for T.V. preachers to get your money

there are these things called punctuation and sentences. you might try using them. they make what you write so much more readable by others.

The rapture comes before tribulation when christians disappear from earth. I thought after that no one on earth will have a chance to go to heaven?

ISLAMIC VIEW OF THE END TIMES

The appointed time when the universe and every creature in it, from microorganisms to human beings, including stars and galaxies, will come to an end, is called the "Hour" in the Qur'an.

"… Knowledge of it rests with my Lord alone..." (Surat al-A'raf: 187), meaning that only He knows the date of the Hour.

There must be a divine reason why our Lord keeps the time of the Hour a secret. For example, it is good for all people, whatever century they live in, to be "… apprehensive about the Hour" (Surat al-Anbiya': 49), and to consider the greatness and unbounded power of Allah. Before that day of horrible anguish overtakes them all of a sudden, they should understand that, apart from Allah, there is no place of refuge. If the time of the Hour were known, people living before the present era would not have felt compelled to think seriously about the end of the world; they would have been unmindful of the final events described in the Qur'an.

Jesus(pbuh) is a sign of the Hour(Surat az-Zukhruf: 61)Just as all the other prophets, Jesus (pbuh) is a chosen slave of Allah whom Allah assigned to summon people to the true path. However, there are some attributes of Jesus distinguishing him from other prophets, the most important one being that he was raised up to Allah and that he will come back to earth again.

The "end times" refers to the period of time close to the end of the world. According to Islam, in this time, there will be the terrible trials of the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), many earthquakes and the emergence of Yajuj and Majuj (Gog and Magog) after which the ways of the Qur'an will prevail and people will extensively adhere to the values it introduces.

This is what tribulation is. Its a chance for everyone to get saved. People living on the earth will have a first hand account of who God is (as well as Satan.) After the Rapture all will have a chance to be saved.

Basically, the people on earth will get an ultimatum. They will see things that have never happend before on the earth in all of history. There will be a man known as the anitchrist, and he will bring as much destruction as he can to believers. This man will basically be satan incarnate. This man will be killed, and satan will resurrect his body and enter it. Satan tries to copy the resurrection of Christ.

Many people will be deceieved in believing that this "antichrist" is the Christ. However, after the Rapture antichrist will go into a destructive killing mode. It will be quite apparent after the Rapture who the antichrist actually is. He will lead a government at the time that the soul purpose of this government is killing christians and Jews alike.

The Rapture is initiated to get God's people out of harms way. After the Rapture, the earth will slowly start to end. There will be terrible plauges, comets falling from the sky, earthquakes, fire, you name it. People living on the earth will be preached Gods word through the first horsemen. All will have a decision. The people who chose to worship the beast (antichrist) will receive a mark. Once this mark is received, there is no turning back. You cannot be saved after taking this mark.

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:18)

This means "If anyone has the wisdom, let him figure out who "antichrist" is. He will be a man, and his mark is 666."

6 is the number for evil in revelation. Now, if you have "666" it signifies a mark made by...

The Dragon (Satan)
The Beast (Antichrist)
The False Prophet (The man who will be antichrist)

Satan will attempt to counterfeit the Holy Trinity. Three forces in one. Satan has always tried to counterfeit Christianity. Namely with other religions.

So, yes, everyone will have a chance to be saved. They will have the choice. But the people who take the mark will not be saved.

"And he caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, on in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:16-17)

Sorry, I am not sure of what you meant/are asking...but to reply to this...
In an easy way to explain the end times...(now try to understand that Revelations is very deep and complicated, with a lot of references...I took a 6 wk course and still just got only the tip of it). So forgive me if I am not real descriptive....
People who are right with God will just suddenly disappear- men, women, children...all who were right with Him. They will be put at rest, so they will not see a lot of what goes on, as described- the anti Christ will reign, etc...But stil many Christians will suffer- not all Christians are right with God (I think we all know that).
There will be some that have not made up their mind, or who hasnt given up on God, or who God hasnt given up on ...and things will happen to make them choose one way or another...
the anti-christ will reign, and then Jesus will come again, with those who have died who were right with Him...and battle...good vs. evil...and then, Satan wil be bound for 1000 years, and no evil will be on thiis earth that is him, so any sin, etc...will be strictly from people.
The dead and the living will be judged.
Then there is another part to all this, with Gog and Magog, which I am not 100% eductaed on...but THAT will indeed be the end of the world and heaven will be here.
It sounds outrageous and crazy, I know, and the Bible says we will see and feel things that we cant even comprehend....but, the Bible and God has proven themselves to me time and time again, so I dont doubt what it said.

Luckily peple are panicing (yet! lol)
but those who know the Bible, and know the truth, and live for God, are not afraid at all. They just want to help those who dont know the truth, to learn it, so they can be saved as well. When someone knows truth, they have such a desire to help. Its not like we THINK this, we BELIEVE it.
If I knew that a train was going to run off the track and kill people, I would want to try and stop the people from getting on, or even go to the train co and have them cease the train altogether.
God says that He will make sure ALL people are given the knowledge and opportunity to know Him, so no one will be w/ an excuse. How He jusges them, is obviously up to Him. God will not kill innocent people...and if they do die, them they will be in a better place with Him, rather than here. So, either way, it is a good thing.
The good side to Revelations is that to the believers, they follow what God would want best they can, with a sincere heart- not a sinless life (that is impossible for us). And that is what we are judged on. So, to those who refuse to believe, they will meet their fate. It also states in the Bible that those who go with God, will have no recollection of pain, suffering, or of this earth. A lot of what God is and says is incomprehensable...but that is faith, and that is what God is- incomprehensable. He wouldnt be a God if He was like us and easy to figure out.
God has a reason for everything. I look back years ago, at some things that happened to me, that I just didnt understand why...but now, I see if that would not have happened, then neither wouyld this...or if I didnt do that, then I nenevr would have met this person....so things always pan out for the better, but it is up to us to trust in everything- good and bad. People never have a hard time on the good- just the bad....so people dont want to answer for who they are or what they do...that is why there are a lot of unbelievers...Life isnt suposed to be easy. Nothing ever is. And there are consequences to everything we do- why should the way we lived life be any different? When one reads and starts to understand the Bible, seriously, coming from somene who was a wild partier, who was a single mom and just didnt care, who did Tarot and was doing just fine....I found God (or I should say He found me lol) and things ar emuch more clear, much easier for me, and there is a LOT less negativity to and from me because of it. I was healed of some ailments, relationships got better, and God has blessed me many times over. I have no doubt.

Wow...that is very interesting...
Thanks for sharing that!

Not all Christians go against the Bible. I know many who follow it best they can- and no one is sinless. But God does forgive- if we ask Him for it and give Him reasons to answer our prayers for forgiveness.
Christianity is a religion, which is man-made. Sadly, you have fanatics who give us a bad name, and all the crappy people who claim to know and follow God that give us a bad name...I am a Bible-believing person, and I love God and live for Him best I can. If I ever thought I would not go to Him when I die, I would still live for Him. I have no guarantees that I am Saved...but I will live fo rHim because He doesnt ask anything of us that is bad...so why the big deal? I want to be a better person and live a good life...and if I will be rewarded bymy Father, my Creator for that, that makes it even better!
There are so many religions and beliefs and faiths that say the Bible says this, says that, that they know and live for God and dont (hypocricy) and God will deal with them. I just take care of my own yard, so to speak.

So many things about that 666. I wonder what it means...some say a birthdate, some say a SSN, some say it is to do with the web (the Greek letter W is connected to the number 6)....
I just say this: watch for the signs...they are in the Bible.
One to watch for is common currency between the nations...another is a common mark on our wrist or forhead, that w/o it we wont be able to trade, buy or sell...
2 pretty easy ones to watch for. We can debate on this all we want, but since it is prophesy, we will just have to wait and see- until time brings it or we die- whatever comes first lol Just dont discount it, because if I had the choice of eternal life or ignorance (and caring about lfe and taking a stand against the Bible or the end times w/o full knowledge/ studying the Bible is ignornace to me), I will take eternal life.

No, we dont know the exact date...but we are to read the Bible and watch for signs, etc...so that we can save ourselves....

But our soul isnt ours...it is God's...we are made in His image...He created us and we are His children...
We cant claim what we didnt create...we are us, but who MADE us? Ok, our mom and dad, nature...but who created THEM? The debate can go on and on....
Is it too much to ask someone to admit we are not in control? That there is a higher power? I dont understand why?

why what? there is a god who made us because he's nice?

No...I dont understand why it is too much to ask some people to admit we are not in control and that it is He who is in control and has the power- not us....

...and just an tid bit...God says when we are right with Him, we have the power and authority over evil and bad things....its just a concept many cant grasp. Even believers. It is something we are conditioned to think/feel.

I agree there is a higher power, I just have seen no evidence that it is the Judeo-
Christian God! - CD

sorry, but the only ownership is in that everything is a part of the grand system called the universe. there are forces that act over us, but they are lower forces, not higher forces. we are made from what is beneath us, not anything above us.

who ever claimed we are in control? not i! one reason for the belief in gods is to give the artificial comfort that someone is in control. i do not buy into such things. i accept there is no homunculus of the universe.

Yes but my question is now: After the rapture the antichrist begins to kill christians... where would he find any if all have disappeared since the rapture?

And AFTER the rapture can people still get to heaven or are the gates closed after the rapture?

i voted within the next 100 years

There will be people of the church (semi-Christians) that will stay on the earth. There are some so called Christians that lack certain qualities that God wants them to have. They will stay on the earth and will repent. God protects these people of his church for three and a half years. The antichrist will try and kill these people after the rapture (the people of the church) however, somehow he is hindered for a certain amount of time. The "christians" that are left on the earth are mainly the people that make up the "Church of Laodecia" in Revelation. These are people of the church who say one thing, but mean the other. Technically, they arent even Christians. Because a christian would not act the way they do. Now, for some reason, God may leave some people on the face of the earth. This is a possiblity, possibly to preach the word to other people. However, I predict that at least 75% of the Christian population to disappear off the face of the earth (the Rapture.) Women will miscarry, children will disappear. It will be one of the strangest things the earth has ever seen.

Yes. Thats the point of tribulation (to give time for people to come to means with the Lord.) The gate of heaven shall be open untill the last soul is judged.

This is a good point Consumate Deist.

For Amalgumut or any-one else who might wish to answer it. I would like to know if people who feel this way will be forced to give up their belief or perish, in the end days?

and I still personely feel that any end of times prophecy is an atrocity.

to play along:

what of the injured animal you would take to the vet to save its life, but the animal does not know what is happening, so it merely responds in defense of itself?

of course:

what of the animal that you would lead to the slaugherhouse, but the animal does not know what is happening and because it is conditioned to "follow", it freely walks to its doom?


all religions are the work of man, all relfecting on some supposed things that are beyond our perception. as such, either they are all false because they all are failing to catch even a glimmer of what this "otherness" is, or they are all correct in the little glimmer they have captured. i say all or nothing because of the strong commonalities across all religions (which i attribute to what i see as the real source of all these "gods" - the human brian").

imagine if we are but a cattle species, and our "ultimate" is to be used as "material" for some other beings. we "feed" on that deemed be low us, and the extention of that is that "above us" feeds on us!

to use the popular term "soul", then the "gods" are but souleaters, harvesting their crops.

Well, that is your belief, and it happens to just differ from mine. I strongly disagree with there not being higher forces...nature itself is a higher force. We cant contrl it, and it seems to comtrol us.
It was said "all you have to do to be saved by the christ-god is sell him your soul", but, since I believe that we are made BY Him, in His image, then that statement doesnt make sense...because we are not in full ownership of our soul. We have free will, and a right to it, but it isnt ours.
And thats ok if that's what you believe...thats you. I am me, and I am sure of who I am and where I will be when I pass on....

a "force" does not have to be "higher" to avoid our control of it.

it is a fallacy of the human mind that things exist in such a hierachial order.

GRO J1655-40 a black hole is heading to earth and will be here in about 1.5Mill years

Just a quick correction- the anti Christ wil not kill Christians. He will be an normal person, who will be in some sort of earthly control (government perhaps?), and he will gain control and earn the love and trust of many, thinking he is some sort of great man.....and after he gets a following, he will then claim to be Christ, Himself. Thgen times will get tough for all- if you do not follow this man, in what he expects, calls for, then times will get tough...those who know God will know this man isnt right, and wont follow him. I cant say exactly what will be, but, the Bible talks about tough times for believrs of God.

God wont killl Christians, He will take those who are true believers and lived right with and for Him, and they will just "disappear" one day. They will lay at rest, in peace until Jesus returns and brings forth a special army of Hs chosen people (that have left this plain) and they will fight with anf for Him. They will be invincible and will not be able to be beaten. After this, wil all be judged- those who are dead and alive. It willbe up to God who stays and who comes up with Him. Then Satan will be bound for 1000 years and people will live in a wonderful earth, and the only sin will be theirs, and they will have no choice but to live right by God, or not. Those that dont, THAT is when, after the 1000 years.
There wil be:
- human life extended (like in the day of Noah, people lived 100's of years)
- one language for all
- one religion for all
-Satant/evil bound
- a world like the garden of eden, where people live in harmony and peace
- health will be restored
- a headquarters for Christ in Jeruselum

It is after that 1000 years of choice and living in peace, that Satan is unleashed (Rev 20:7-8), and peoplewill make a choice again, and it is at that time the end of the world will be- so people have plenty of time and choices- how easy it is, is up to us. We have to work for it, and once we are on the right path, it is a good life and we view it as good.
God says in Rev 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne...."

I didnt get it from my mind, but from the Bible, speaking about God, His angels, Satan, humankind, who has authority, etc...

We can't control all of nature, yet. But we will... You see, I don't fall to our knees and worship something just because we don't understand or is powerful.

The ironic thing is. When you pass on you simply will not exist to even know you were wrong. You can't just go " oops, I was wrong " You will just not exist at all. Like before you were born.

The man that will eventually be known as the anitchrist will first be man of peace. Nobody would think that this man would actually be the antichrist. He will be a man of peace up till the rapture.

After the rapture the antichrist will go after christians, and people from the church. We see this in this scripture...

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 12:17)

"And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea..." (Revelation 13:1)

The dragon is indeed Satan, however we see in the next chapter that the dragon gives power to the beast (antichrist). It also says that anyone who does not worship the beast will be killed. Christians, or anyone who has been saved, will not worship the beast, so the beast will pursue them.

"He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed."
(Revelation 13:15)