Quote:

"God may be all merciful, but He is also completely just. He cannot (and when i say cannot i mean will not) allow sin to just slide. As any good parent, He must admonish and punish His children if they have committed a crime against Him (which is essentially what sin is)."

Then what is the point of forgiveness and salvation. Obviously God does allow ones sin to SLIDE into the ocean of His forgetfulness.
Otherwise we would all be destined for hell because the wages of sin is DEATH and all have sinned and fall far short of the glory of God.

And God said "I desire MERCY" not sacrifice, which is what Jesus came to remiind the Jews and all of us.


I hope some day you will get to know this God of MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and stop seeing your heavenly father as a strict, punishing tyrant. Any good parent does not spank a baby that has pottied their diaper. The parent lovingly teaches the child how to use a toilet.

May the love of God be revealed even more to you, in Jesus name I pray. Amen

???????????????????????????????

I believe in a God of MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE. But I also believe in a God of JUSTICE. And a just God does not just let people off for doing the wrong thing. The only thing that can come from that is anarchy.

Jesus took our sin on the cross and when our faith is put in Him, our sin is put on Him. Hence the FORGIVENESS.

God shows us a way back to Him in the first place, hence the MERCY.

And God sent His son to die for us, hence the LOVE.

But there must be JUSTICE, otherwise all that God has done for us is meaningless.

So with this....Are you saying that God is only what we interpret him/it to be?

No this is just how God had to do things then and now.

I do believe that his message(s) are open to individual interpretation, which leads us to so many different branches of the same 'basic' religion. Kind of like, 'Honor thy father and thy mother.' What does that mean to you? Does that mean your parents, does that mean Father as God and Mother as Mother Earth, or does it mean something else to you...

I also believe that, he is what he is...to me he is the almighty creator...to others, he is nothing but a story to maintain order/control over society...

It is all based on each individual's interpretation of the written word...and, for that matter, which written word you are reading...

Jesus Christ....

Actually, I would pose the question why you blindly put your trust into the Bible at all??

"The Bible says...."
So what? Do you even know who wrote the Bible? I know:
many word-of-mouth campfire stories put in together into one singe compendium of books- The Bible. Written by many, many different men over AGES, blending in actual historical happenings and people to "spice it up" and bring more trustworthiness into the whole matter. Who WOULD read the crap if it wasn't for the interesting historical descriptions??

I would trust (and let my life be guided by, apparently) the Bible as much as I would trust the "contents"-text on the back of my cornflakes package.
And I simply cannot understand people who DO let the Bible guide their lives.

God is just a spectre in your mind. Just like muslim minds. And jewish. It's all the same God... same mental sickness.
The Bible says that you're not supposed to worship an another god than the Bible's God, that there is no other God than that God. You want to know why? Because it's a matter of CONTROL. Yes, taste the word. The church, as an grand institution, wants you to belong to THEM and none else. So simple is that.

But who am I to speculate? To question? God exists, right? And The Bible is holy. I'm just a damned poor soul with lunatic thoughts.

The bible is full of many very important CONCEPTS.

Right from the beginning it tries to deal with the creation of the universe and the earth and when you line up it's order of creation, with the theory of evolution I think they did a pretty good job even without the extra thousands of years of knowlege we have behind us.
Then with it's metaphorical story about a tree with a fruit called "the knowledge of good and evil" it does another damn good job of describing how evil\sin came into the world. Man\Adam went against The Golden Rule, instead of doing what we know by empathetic instinct is right, he chose to do what he selfish Adam wanted to do. Where was the point when man the neanderthal beast became man the sentient being?

I earlier pontificated on the God of creation of "our perception of this physical reality of sub atomic particles" and the God of "our belief of what is right and wrong" two absolutes we as limited human beings unable

I have absolutely no interest in the so called "historical" descriptions because 1. I think most of the bible as a story was meant metaphorically.

You trust the back of a box of a food product. Try reading health books on the nutritional value of most of those food products. My doctor said don't eat anything from a box, bottle or can and no fast foods. We are all ODing on Fat Salt and Sugar. Diabetes and Heart Disease are running rampant in spite of all you food box labels. ANd don't even get me started on the conspiracy of not labelling foods as being genetically modified or not.

Yes it is a matter of control. SELF control. The bible tells us to treat other people with respect. The OT's 10 commandments tell us, Don't KILL them or STEAL from them of COMMIT ADULTERY on them or BEAR FALSE WITNESS about them and the NT teachings of Jesus tell us Love The Spirit of Truth and Righteousness and Love Others. These are hardly SPECTRES in our minds. They are very very important concepts in our minds. Try thinking about all those things next time your read the bible.

So then, we should keep the ten commandments, and chuck the rest. The commandments are the ONLY useful thing that I have ever pulled out of that book. Parts of the NT illustrate and explain the 10 C's, but the rest is either exaggerated, distorted history, or fables meant to instill fear and loathing.

As always, your mileage may vary.

I'll address several items here:
Hyperactive, the book of Enouch is a pseudoepigraph (nice word for a forgery) penned sometime in the 2nd century BCE by Maccabean scribes and recognized as such by the ancients (it was never ever considered for including in either the Jewish or Christian holy books) and by scholars (with the exception of Ashley and about 3 other people in the world) of today. It is the ancient equivalent of science fiction.
as for a God of Mercy and Justice, here is a little tidbit: It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward. In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations in Hell forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don’t return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity. Now that is AMAZING GRACE!
As for the validity of the Bible, all you have to do is look at preceding Semitic cultures myths and holy scriptures and you find where the authors of the Jewish scriptures plagiarized their material from.
As for multiple Gods, the originial Yhwhism only recognized Him as the "Head God" and he even had a wife Asherah (equivalent to Astar or Hera).
As for the Ten Commandments, they are a pale copy (with the addition of the ones about being the only god, keep the sabbath, etc) of Hammarabi's code which predated Moses by over 600 years.

Mako, I'm speechless

concepts that are not new or unique to it.

all the concepts come from those actions and thoughts that better enable us, as a social species, to survive. the bible does a wonderful job of mystifying the mondane.

Jesus actually narrowed it down to TWO commandments

1 Love The Spirit of Truth and Righteousness above everything even yourself.
2 Love Others

The problem is that people are so insincere and have this mechanism we call "denial" so they cannot or will not interpret and therefore apply those commandments in a truthful and righteous way.

You know what people are like. We try and use "reason and logic" to prove that what we WANT, although we KNOW it is WRONG ..... is actually RIGHT! TaDa!!!

That is why Jesus said "You must be born again", You must become a person willing to admit to and act upon the TRUE interpretation of those commandments, not find loopholes in them.

The bible says mans wisdom is foolishness to God and Gods wisdom is foolishness to mand because of the above.

The disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables and Jesus said because those who WANT to understand will know the true interpretation of those parables. Those who WANT to do the wrong thing will interpret them in a way that will justify the evil they really want to do.

So love and truth and honor and justice are all mundane to you?

If that is the world you wish to live in then it is yours.

Jesus takes us to a world where love and truth and justice REALLY mean something.

Jesus said God does not judge you, He has given that authority to me..... but I do not judge you either. The son of God came into the world NOT to CONDEMN the world but that the world through Him might be saved.

But there IS a judge. The veru word I spoke will be your judge. In other words the Truth will be our judge.

We reap what we sow. But God is ALWAYS there to forgive us and heal and clean us, NOT to judge us. God loves us. He is constantly begging us to stop running away from him to our own destruction. God is not sending anyone to hell for punishment. God is pleading with EVERYONE to stop going down the road to their own destruction. We are punihsing and destroying ourself. The consequences of our actions will punish us, not God.

love and truth are dynaic constructs. all you are doing is elevating them above something else. this is no different than the materialist that elevates posessions above something else. you are all the same. if you can not see that, then so be it.

Matthew speaking of all the OT Commandments:

When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

If we keep these in mind - love God totally, and love others as ourselves, then we are on the right track.

What I don't see is why you object to elevating Truth and Righteousness and Goodness and Love above other things.

And of course it is different than elevating possesions, silly, it is the complete opposite.

Shalom

= basing the value of your life around these fleeting concepts



= basing the value of your life around these fleeting concepts


i object to placing more "value" in something than there is inherent to it. i agree with you that it is more sensible to "cry over something that can cry back". i am anything but a materialist. however, i will also not elevate another human construct in its place.

These are not fleeting concepts IMHO. Our perceptions of them may be. But think about it.

The story of the boy who cried wolf may or may not have really happened but it holds a very important TRUTH. If you lie , you will lose your credibility and then when you need some one to believe you, will regret lieing.
Ones credibility... the TRUTH is very important.


And if you have ever felt unloved, you should know that love is very valuable. That is why it is on the heirarchy of human needs ... Food, shelter, security, the need to love and be loved, the need for a purpose...

These are not fleeting concepts,. they last a lifetime.

we arn't supposed to debate here so all i will say is look closely at the heirarchy of needs. you will see it is not a heirarchy at all.

I do not like debates. I like discussions. I like sharing my beliefs and feelings.
You are free to disagree with me, without it becoming a debate. Your opinions are just as valid as my opinions.

SO tell me why you feel they are not a heirarchy?

This is one of the defintions of hierarchy

A series in which each element is graded or ranked: put honesty first in her hierarchy of values.

This is Maslow's hierarchy of human needs.

Maslow has set up a hierarchy of five levels of basic needs. Beyond these needs, higher levels of needs exist. These include needs for understanding, esthetic appreciation and purely spiritual needs. In the levels of the five basic needs, the person does not feel the second need until the demands of the first have been satisfied, nor the third until the second has been satisfied, and so on. Maslow's basic needs are as follows:

Physiological Needs
These are biological needs. They consist of needs for oxygen, food, water, and a relatively constant body temperature. They are the strongest needs because if a person were deprived of all needs, the physiological ones would come first in the person's search for satisfaction.

Safety Needs
When all physiological needs are satisfied and are no longer controlling thoughts and behaviors, the needs for security can become active. Adults have little awareness of their security needs except in times of emergency or periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting). Children often display the signs of insecurity and the need to be safe.

Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness
When the needs for safety and for physiological well-being are satisfied, the next class of needs for love, affection and belongingness can emerge. Maslow states that people seek to overcome feelings of loneliness and alienation. This involves both giving and receiving love, affection and the sense of belonging.

Needs for Esteem
When the first three classes of needs are satisfied, the needs for esteem can become dominant. These involve needs for both self-esteem and for the esteem a person gets from others. Humans have a need for a stable, firmly based, high level of self-respect, and respect from others. When these needs are satisfied, the person feels self-confident and valuable as a person in the world. When these needs are frustrated, the person feels inferior, weak, helpless and worthless.

Needs for Self-Actualization
When all of the foregoing needs are satisfied, then and only then are the needs for self-actualization activated. Maslow describes self-actualization as a person's need to be and do that which the person was "born to do." "A musician must make music, an artist must paint, and a poet must write." These needs make themselves felt in signs of restlessness. The person feels on edge, tense, lacking something, in short, restless. If a person is hungry, unsafe, not loved or accepted, or lacking self-esteem, it is very easy to know what the person is restless about. It is not always clear what a person wants when there is a need for self-actualization.
The hierarchic theory is often represented as a pyramid, with the larger, lower levels representing the lower needs, and the upper point representing the need for self-actualization.

So tell me what YOU think in relation to these human needs.

One thing people on this forum will agree on is that we never agree on anything. That things can have multiple meanings.

A character from the show DS9 named Garak derives a different moral out of this story

Never tell the same lie twice!

We all derive our own morals according to our own moral fibre. Also many morals can come from the same story. It never fails to amaze me when I read a scripture passage for maybe the 20th time and I get yet ANOTHER quite different revelation from it. There are as many different revelations of Truth as there are circumstances to which to apply those Truths.

But even with Garaks restriction on lieing, it limits your lies so that after you have told that lie once you can never tell it again, at least giving you some semblamce of credibility.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is what i thought you were referencing in the first post.

simply put, satisfaction of various needs is not dependent on the completion of any prior needs. all the needs are equal, even though some are neccessary to survival (it has been argued that self actualization is not necessary to all people). there is no order to which the needs are fulfilled and are fulfilled independently. yes, you can be self actualized while starving for example.

it is unfortunate that all too often "equals" get mis-grouped into hierarchies.

I agree with you, but I also see the logic to Maslow's thinking. Generally speaking I think Maslow is right but certainly as individuals those needs can be varied in their fuldillment.

When I think of that hierarchy however I think like this.

As an human animal like all animals we need FOOD to survive physically. We need shelter from the elements and we need security from predators. Needs for our physical health and welfare.

After we have secured our physical life, then we can focus on our needs od self actualization.
Those other needs Maslow talks about are needs based on our human sentience, they deal with our emotional health and welfare.


If you have not satisfied your need for food shelter and security you would be DEAD and couold not satisfy your self actualization needs.

The fact that you are alive is testimony that for the present moment you have satisfied those primary physical needs.


Logic paints another picture of those hugher needs as well.

Many humans kill themselves because they feel there is no purpose to their lives.
And what purpose is there in life? Obviously to have a purpose you must be needed. If no one needs you, then you have no purpose in life. Look at Curt Cobain. He had it ALL , Fame,. Fortune, Family! And yet he claimed there was no reason to live because he had attained all his goals. All HIS goals. I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but what a SELFISH attitude. If he cared about OTHERS, he would still be alive today because MILLIONS of people need US all!
Curt Cobain could have used his Fame and Fortune to HELP OTHERS. what a glorious PURPOSE for ones life. Briinging JOY to children, to the lonely, to the sick, to the elderly, to those in hospitals and prisons. All they need is a friend. Someone to love them.
List some "purposes" of life and see how many of them involve OTHERS. Pleasing them, helping them, impressing them, challenging them.

And before you can accomplish something like winning a race, you need to have your nutritional needs met if you expect to have any success, just for one example of why some needs have to be met before others can be.

that still does not make them a hierarchy of needs.

basic needs such as food are a requirement to survive, yes. however, nutrition is independent of the other needs. you can be without shelter and still fulfilling your self-esteem needs, for example.

maslow.... i think too many people stumble on or are presented with (in some undergrad course) this hierarchy. it is great as a simplistic view, but lousy as anything more.

God isn't malevolant Stellar, we've been through this before....Zeus was the Greek version of God, flavored by their culture, they even had an account of the flood wiping out all life by an angry Zeus, and even had hybrid Nephilim equivalents and monsters. The Egyptians believed Orion was the Throne of God in pre-dynsasty times, and since that time period was the same as the influence of these angels, I would say that that possibility is very high in it being true. God IS in space, I've said it before.



Saucy I thought you were some sort of Pastor? Which level of Heaven is God on again? (10th, is case you forgot ). Do some research, please, Genesis isn't the first book, and Job most definantly isn't either. Enoch is.



JPMD1, God is our Father, and as such guards His children jealously. Would you prefer He did not care at all?

GodsMessenger,

1. While I respect your right to believe as you wish, and I'm not picking per se, the 'so-called historical' part of the Bible, when properly examined, and with excluded books is just as much a rival theory as any Evolutionist could ever claim. There are, as I've said in other posts, an outcry of scientists who do NOT accept Evolution because they have tested it (and most aren't religious, and not Creationists). There's more to those historical accounts than people give them credit for. While I dn't agree the Earth is 6000 years old, there ARE alternate theories out there.

2. Jesus actually laid out the 10 Commandments which were taken from the 613 given to Moses, of which Judiasm still follows (those rules are in Exodus, but get ignored) as the rules to follow. Jesus didn't come here to break His father's laws, He came here to change them.



And it was that that Jesus was here to change. You get the idea. The rituals, rules and routines being practiced at the time were distracting from the real meaning of it all. God. Some Christians are also making this same mistake today....

People shouldn't so flagrantly agree with Evolution simply because it's public opinion. Public opinion can be wrong.

If you are frozen to death, you can't fulfill any self esteem needs because you would be dead.

You first have to be physically aive before you can be psychologically alive.
And you first have to be psychologically alive before you can be emotionally alive.

However even after saying all of that. I am brought back to the realization that I also hold a perception of a reality in which the physical world is just smoke and mirrors, an illusion that hides the reality of the sub atomic world of energy fields and nothingness.

The bible's historical validity is irrelevant for me when it comes to the TRUTH that I see in the bible. The metaphorical truths and concepts are more important for me.

Whether the new testament and the character and teachings of Jesus actually happened or not, does not change the validity of those teachings of Jesus. And the spirit of those teachings of the character Jesus, become real when by faith we believe in and act upon them. When we acknowledge the Spirit of Christ by giving It reality with our words and actions. We become one with His Spirit. When we obey the voice of God when he tells us what the right thing to do is in any given situation we become children of God.
And when we hear God tell us to do one thing and we choose to do another, then we are not the children of God.

God is The Spirit of Truth and Rigteousness, and when we choose to do what we believe is wrong, then we are no longer obedient to the Truth but have chosen to be obedient to the LIE!

This has nothing to do with what any other person thinks is right or wrong.
It has to do with being true to oneself or being in self denial.

However having said that, people who are of one accord with the Spirit of Truth will reocgnize each other, whether they are atheist or pagan or jew or christian they will be one in the Spirit of Truth and Righteousness.

Approach this from an unbiased point of view for a moment. Here you are, trying to determin whether god is malevolant or not. Either that, or whether the god your worshiping is actually god or if he's satan in disguise. Its quite possible that what your worshiping is malevolant.



And how does that prove anything?



You fail to realise that what you say really doesnt matter.

Does what YOU say matter?

I would hope that anything any of us has to say should matter.

And how can any of us approach anything from an unbiased point of view. ALL of our views are a product of a lifetime of data input and programming. The best we can do is add new bits of information to our data base and adjust our programming based on the new data.

And that new data comes from all the things that any of us has to say.

Regardless of what God is, or the "character" attributes given, God is God; the Most High.
Something tells me that we should have respect.

Nope. Just because I say something doesnt mean its true.



So if I said that your god is a phoney, my word alone should be enough?

I havent read every post on this subject, so forgive me if I am repeating someone else's thoughts.

I think most of the deities are the same, its just that different people have different views. This in turn forms many religions that are very similar in there view. I know this is probably an obvious reply.

GodsMessenger,

I can respect your reasons for what you find in the Bible. If it works you for you then I have no objections. Not everyone has an interest in, or even cares about the history of the Bible. I personally do though, and I've spent alot of time and effort researching what has been looked over before, and well, it is important to me. And I don't make light of it....The historical evidence I've found is much more interesting than what people commonly hear about today, from either side. The truth is better, and stranger, than fiction.

And Stellar,

I'm not going to argue with you. Satan is an accusing angel, an 'attorney' like prosecution against mankind, and at one point against his own kind, angels. God is God, satanail, is satan.

We have our perceptions of the Truth, how close our perceptions are to the Absolute Truth, I don't think we as humans can really know for sure.

If you are sincere in your desire and efforst to understand teh Truth, then your word although it is not the absolute Truth, is the only think you have to go on.

The key is in at least trying to understand the other persons perception and how it fits into your own. And trying to understand why they believe their perception is true without being condescending by thinking things like it is because they are stupid or ignorant. In other words respecting their opinion even if you do not agree with it or understand it.