could someone explain this to me please?

Taking the concept of a christian god (jesus included) to be true (basic principles ignore fine detail) then god made me, he came up with the specifications and design and made me accordingly, he also made the universe and all laws of physics, he created the situations i was born into (povert/riches etc) he gave me my humanity and my reasoning powers and intellect etc all subject to his design.

then why am i punished if i end up evil?

If you made a robot programed to destroy people, would you punish it if it carried out those instyructions?


are you going to play the "I have free will card"?

Welcome CROR, I always thought that our parents(creators) gave us our specifications and design. They also gave us the situations we were born into. They gave us our humanity & reasoning powers. Our intelect comes from what we take in and understand throughout life. If you believe anyone when they tell you you're evil for being human then that would be a problem that you should have checked.

thank you for the response.

however the biology and random chance plays the only parts of influencing somebodies life, both natutre and nurture are not within my control so why would i be punished by a god if my thought process stemed from these circumstances as all our thoughts/feelings come from (in most peoples opinions).

the parents being responsible is true but it all stems back to god becuse if its my parents fault then who created them, answer: their parents etc etc all back to god!

do you see?

One possible interpretation of the Garden of Eden story is that, initially, man was totally subservient to God.

Then the serpent tempted Eve, and man developed free will.

So God punished man for having the audacity to think for himself.

So, God didn't make us how we are - he made us to be different. But the Serpent interferred and changed us. Now, is that our fault? Or the serpent's?

the serpant is the symbolism for our evolution. that is why 'evolution' is so disliked by the religious.

Yes Essan a good point

if we were mislead, why is that our fault, why am i punished and if we had free will then why am i being punished for adam mistake not my mistake.

CROR, I just wonder how many times you've screwed up today and done something you know God is against and says is wrong. Adam was the first to screw-up, but we've continued to pass on the torch and mess up...on a daily basis. I don't know why people think they're perfect and right and true, when we've all screwed up and we all deserve hell.

According to being born in different situations...well, people don't like to hear this, but God cares more about growing people in character and doesn't care as much about comfort. Just because someone is born into riches doesn't make their life perfect and good. If you ask me, I know more miserable and depressed rich people than poor people. I grew up in poverty and it made me into a humble, caring, loving person. I now know that I can survive any situation thrown at me. Rich people, though they are miserable, are snobby jerks. I'd rather be born into poverty than money if that's the case. I cannot learn life's lessons if I'm comfortable; only when I'm in discomfort.

Who's fault is it? The serpent or ours? The serpent is Satan. It's not a symbol of our evolution. It's the very beginning of what would become Satan's attempt to destory mankind, but all he can do is tempt. He can dangle that fruit in front of you all he wants, but it's only up to you to take it. Am I going to pull the free will card? Yes. Satan can't make you do anything. He can only tempt you. You choose whether or not to do good or bad and when you choose to do bad, that makes you qualify for what we call eternal punishment. We all deserve it.

thanks for the preaching, but i would prefer if you answered the question.

right or wrong is matter of judgement

with no god to answer to nothing i do can be classed as universally wrong from shoplifting to mass genocide!

please tell me why i would be punished if i did bad things as a result of nature and nurture both of these are not within my power to chaneg so why am i held responsible under your supposed god?

Not within your power? It is not within your power not to lie? Not to steal? Not to commit mass genocide? Everything you do in your life is within your power. If you believe it's okay to steal and murder and lie, etc...because it's a matter of judgment, then you are truly messed up. Everyone has a conscience that tells us, "Hey, this is wrong!"

According to my God, he cited out a long time ago what is right and what is wrong. Most of His laws became laws for society.

under your reasoning do you think then that teh criminally insane are just "evil" and should be punished as their conscience should stop them?

and people with tourettes (however the hell you spell it) should be punished too?

of course things are within our power. we have the power of our minds, unfortunately, many still allow the primative aspects of our minds to take control and confuse them. the voice in the head is not of a 'god' but of you. the 'god' is in the head, but it only has as much power as you allow yourself to surrender to it. the 'god' is in the biology of the brain, where the potential of humanity is in the functioning of the brain.

but some aspects of somepeoples minds are not within their power to change (mental people). they have chemical inbalances and have no control over certain reflex actions and activities.

Why would we be made with the POTENTIAL for free will if we weren't meant to exercise it? If God created us with the ability to exercise freedom of choice, why would it be wrong to do so? Is the cat that kills the mouse for sport going to go to hell? Or is the evil of free will only relevant for humans? What of all the thousands of Catthars and Bogomils that were slaughtered by the Catholic Chruch? Is the Catholic Church not evil for such persecuation? Will those murderers not all go to hell?

many questions I would very much like answered and not just with the typical 'animals don't count' or 'it's up to you what you do with your free will' remarks

i personally think given the right upbringing (or wrong one in this case) we are all potentially nasty pieces of work.

im sure if i took a child from birth and fed him lies in a controlled enviroment and maybe even drugged him/her i could get him/her to do all sorts of evil but it wouldnt be his fault

indeed.

it is all in the programming. (yes, we are all programmed)

no I do not see. No one is at fault for creating another being. You and every other being in this planet are created by a genetic code put together by the genetic code our our parents sperm and egg. Us godless people place blame and credit upon ourselves when we do what we feel is right or wrong. Right and wrong are left up to ones own interpretation. What you may see one way I may see another. Every person DOES have free will or should have. You need to take responability for your own thoughts and actions.

And maybe many of the laws of society were created before man created your god.

curiosity, you are correct about the order of events wrt the formation of laws and the formation of the monotheistic god.

our laws all orginially derive from those processes that best suit our biological needs (survival).

"no I do not see. No one is at fault for creating another being. You and every other being in this planet are created by a genetic code put together by the genetic code our our parents sperm and egg. Us godless people place blame and credit upon ourselves when we do what we feel is right or wrong. Right and wrong are left up to ones own interpretation. What you may see one way I may see another. Every person DOES have free will or should have. You need to take responability for your own thoughts and actions"


the point was arguing from the position of somebody who adamantly believes in god not my view!

my view is similar to:

that we are a combination of chemicals and matter and i have therefore renounced any morals or codes of conduct restraining my behaviour i therfore do not see right or wrong but just existence of matter

i therfore in theory do not have a problem with genocide, racism, torture, sex trafficing, murder, slavery as wrong as there is no wrong but also there is no right! so i see no point in charity, courtesy, or empathy.

but i am not completely decided yet im still reasoning my belief!

sorry CROR I went back over your previous statements and I now see where you are not coming from. I guess I must have been on a purge.

Are you arguing on a purely intellectual level? Or are you (or someone you know) actually in this situation?

The simple answer is that God would not hold it against a person if they are physically incapable of controlling their own actions. In a case like this, it is up to those in society who can control their actions to make sure that these people do not do harm to either themselves, or others.

But unless i miss my guess, you are not one of these people, and at the risk of going into preaching mode, God will still hold those who do have the capacity to make moral choices accountable.

We were created with free-will because God did not want mindless zombies worshipping him. He wanted people who would willingly and freely do so.

As for the evils commited by those in the Catholic church (genocide, more recently homosexuality and paedophillia), to this all I can say is that not all those that claim to be Christian are really Christian. If a person/s belief is not reflected in the way they live their life, are they really what they claim to be, or just a fraud?

No, it wouldn't. It would be yours for doing it. Do you know anyone who has done this? Or is this another intellectual debate concerning issues that will more than likely never happen in real life and have certainly never happened to you

Again your perfect god would have created homosexuals since we now know that a person is genetically predetermined when they are born. Are you saying that he made mistakes? Is he infalable like a human? As for genocide, Christians have done this in the past as well. Child molesters have been around for thousands of years. Men were and in some places still are marrying young girls all in the name of your god.

ANd again I say that not all who claim to be Christian are really Christian. If I say one thing, and do another, then that just makes me a hypocrite.

As for homosexuality, that is simply another thing that can draw us away from God. Perhaps homosexual's cannot help feeling the way that they do. But God doesn't hate the people. He hates the actions. But no more than if I were to engage in pre-marital sex. It's all the same sin to God - sexual immorality. There is no distinction between heterosexual sex outside of marriage and homosexual relations (and Jesus even mentions lustful desires as being exactly the same as adultery).

You know that is just the problem with certain christians, they think their way of thinking is the only way. I have many friends that are gay and they ARE christian. But yet the church seems to shun or neglect their ways, so many of them feel they have to hide in order to have their faith. You know it puzzles me as to how some of you people think you're so perfect and moral. You are human too you know and if premarital sex isn't your thing then it isn't your thing but what if you're wrong and we are all supposed to be Asexual and there isn't any such thing as heteral or homosexual but just sexual? Also, you never answered my question, Does your god make mistakes? Also, what about the ministers and priests that commit adultery and pedophilia every day? They are supposed to be in the top echelon of christianity?

You have gay friends who are Christian, good for them. I never said God hated gays. If you bother to actually read my posts, you'd see that I was saying it is the act that is wrong. Just like the act of extra-marital sex is wrong. You can still be gay without practicing the act.



I have never claimed the moral high-ground. Since the first step in Christianity is acknowledging that you are a sinner, I cannot see how any Christian can claim to be perfect.



Christians believe in the Bible and what it says. If I am wrong, then the BIble is wrong (if your gay Christian friends believe the Bible also, they should acknowledge this).



Oh, didn't I? In that case, I'll make it perfectly clear - God is perfect. He does not make mistakes.



Ok, listen very carefully, i'm only going to say this one more time - NOT ALL WHO CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN ARE REALLY CHRISTIAN! Read my posts again.

You have no idea how many times I've braught that up.



Most certainly... although most of the ones who actually decide to attempt to argue this end up repeating "You have free will" in a chant that makes you think they're trying to convince themselves more than they're trying to convince you.



But god created man will the capacity for that free will, created the serpent entirely (meaning god tailored how the serpent would act since god supposedly knows the future) meaning god knew the serpent would tempt Eve, meaning god knew Eve would give in to temptation, meaning god made Eve give in to that temptation.



Gods, because, as I pointed out above, he custom tailored all those events. Lets say I'm a programmer. I make a program involving a spider and a mouse. I program the spider a certain way, and through studying that programming, I know that, faced with a situation such as encountering a mouse, the spider will attack it. I then go on to program the mouse... I place the mouse in the are with the spider, and that programming clearly makes the mouse unable to escape that spiders attack. Is it then solely the spiders fault for attacking the mouse?



I disagree with you there... your actions can still be classified as good or bad, even without god.



Nope. Hypothetically, everything you do is up to how god made you and the environment. You're just reacting to how he made you and it.

If I'm walking down the road and i see someone traveling at 30km over the speed limit and exclaim "He's going to have an accident one day", is it my fault if he ever does?



We are not "programmed" to act a certain way. You make it sounds as if God is to blame for our own actions. The Bible is clear that this is not the case.

@bfg: we are more programmed than you realize. it is just a matter of what you accredit the programming to.

Mmm that is a good question.

As many of you know i have an illness that affects my brain. You push the right buttens I will blow up all over you, it is called " emotional release". I have to tell new friends about this so they understand it is nothing personal. So you might say the programing in my brain has a clitch. If someone catches me on a bad MS day and does some little thing to push me over the edge and I take my cane and pound them into the ground like a fence post, would the christian god forgive me: I will be nice and forget his old testment track record isn't really good on this and say he would. I have seen mentally ill people get away with hurting people and the state do nothing.
BUT if you have a normal intelligent mind there is no reason for you not to put it to the best use. Just because you are born in poverty or wealth is no reason to act like a horses butt. So I don't suppose you would be forgiven for that. My Gods would send you back for more learning.

Lets say you do something evil (like beat up an old lady), does God come down from heaven and smack you? No, God lets us do as we please. However, he still enforces the law, meaning when we die we will be judged accordingly. He won't punish you now, but he may later.


Thats just the thing, we arent robots. If God wanted us not to do as we pleased then he would have made us mindless robots that followed his rules without thought. He didnt want this. He made humans to express love. If he made "mindless robots" we could not express natural love. Its almost like having a blow up doll and a real woman. Which would you rather have?


Even if I were........whats the big deal about saying "we have free will?"

Is that some kind of blasphemy to say that?

[QUOTE]Thats just the thing, we arent robots. If God wanted us not to do as we pleased then he would have made us mindless robots that followed his rules without thought. He didnt want this. He made humans to express love. If he made "mindless robots" we could not express natural love. Its almost like having a blow up doll and a real woman. Which would you rather have?[QUOTE]

Well, according to the bible, he did.

Either way, the only two things that matter in this world are genes and luck, and when you think about it, even your genes are luck, what i'm trying to say is, everything is chance, and spontaneous. Heaven and hell are just places made up to trick the masses into doing what people tell you. This question is just one of the many rethorical statements that cannot be answered without making somebody mad.

He did? Where?

Many people say this....I think its a common misconception.

it is so funny to listen the christian folk go on about their supposed free will, in so many ways.

without getting into the age old topic of "if god knows everything, then he already has preplanned your existance thus you are just a script running along with no input".....

the reality is that free will is an illusion, and it is NOT becuase of the biblegod or any other creation of the mind.

the irony of it all.....


edit: amal... the genesis story reflects the biblegod making mindless toy adam to play in the garden with. along came the snake, who gave adam and eve a break....

The snake gave them a break?!

the snake is a metaphore for our evolution.

the unaware, unthinking man was awoken and when he was, he saw how the creations of his mind were just creations.

the snake gave man the break from living in unawareness. (unawareness is the equivilant of living beneath a "god" that provides everything.)

A metaphor, eh? Then why is it considered good now, but according to the Genesis account, God punished man for it.

I know it'd be far easier to use this account as a metaphor for something else, but it just can't be done.

because if mr biblegod really goes on to like his chosen tribes, then he planned for it all to happen.

the people of the time understood the tales of a big-bad well. it kept them in line.

remember all this stuff was written well after any evolution of man. it is just a story. a story designed to set the living structure for a group of people.

the real immorality of mr biblegod comes out much later in the grand tales of monotheism. he was a mean, nasty, SOB in the first book, and he had his reasons (which as evidenced by the survival of the jewish faith, the tales worked).

it is when he puts on his great deceiver mask for the second book (the dark book) we start to see the true level of depravity of the biblegod.

but all is not lost, eventually someone had to write a third book giving mr biblegod a nicer face again.

overall though, it is as plain as day that mr biblegod is the most definative construct of what "evil" is ever created by the human species!

You're not god, the one that made him that way, are you?



Then the biblical writers dont understand where I'm comming from much like yourself. Lets see if I can start small...

Do you agree that, in the end, its our genetic make up that controles exactly how we will act and react to events in the real world? It doesnt really matter if you believe this is correct or not, because "genetic make up" can be changed to whatever you do think controles us... its just tat using "genetic make up" to explain it, I find, makes it easier to understand where we're comming from and so on.



Dont pick on the word. He used that to try and explain himself, he could just have easily not used examples, but you're already having a hard enough time understanding. So what we've got, according to religion is:

1. God is all knowing.
2. God created man.
3. God, since he is all knowing, knew exactly how every single man and women would react (due to the way they were made) to every single possible event in the environment around them.
4. God then created an environment that made humans sin, knowingly.

Hence, god made Eve in a certain way, and that way was that she'd give in to temptation when faced with the snake. He knew that, and then put her in the situation to be tempted by the snake. She cant escape it, its how he made her...

No, I understand completely what you people are trying to say. My comment was an example (that you're having a tough time understanding) in itself.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes, but they had a choice. And they chose (willingly) to disobey God..

I'm assuming he knew. However, God did not hold a gun to her head to eat the fruit. She was a big girl, she did it all by herself. She is responsible for her actions. God probably knew these things would happen, however regardless of him knowing, they chose to eat the fruit.

Obviously not, but God does not force anyone to act the way they do.



Nothing controls our choices except ourselves. What's your point???

Care to explain it to me then, because I'm quite sure you dont understand.



Refer to number 3. What does it say? It says that god, since he is all knowing, knew exactly how every single man and women would react (due to the way they were made) to every single possible event in the environment around them. That means that he made them so that when they are faced with that choice in number 4, they chose the disobey god...

See? This is why Im quite sure you dont understand. The whole point was that their offering of a choice means nothing, because god preprogrammed which choice they would chose.



He didnt need to, because he *made* her to eat the fruit. Just like a computer... you dont have to hold a gun to the CPU to get it to open up a program... it see's that you've double clicked on a short cut and it reacts to that by opening up the program.

Once again, I'll break my argument down into easier steps. Do you agree that, in the end, it is our genetic make up that guides which choices we'll make when faced with certain decisions?



She did it all by herself because she was made by god to do it by herself.



But they chose to eat the fruit because god decided when making them to make them so that they would inevitably eat that fruit when faced with that decision... they are only subordinates to how they were made.



Depends on how you would define "force". In this situation, god made everyone to act a certain way.

Lets try putting it this way. There are infinite versions of Eve. All of them are different in behaviour and how they would react to certain situations. God, fully informed on their behaviour and how they would react to the snake chooses the one who would defy him.



Assuming theres a god who's all he's said to be, he made all those choices for us already.

Ummm..how you are trying to discredit the possibility of a God due to him "setting up" Adam and Eve and that God made us as robots and unable to chose for ourselves. Like I said before, I don't think you understand what I am trying to say.

He probably knew this yes. But my point is that they did it with their hearts content. God had nothing to do with their own accord. He let them do what they wanted. He could have randomized their creation a billion times, and they still would have eaten the fruit.

Regardless how he "programmed" them, they still had the choice. Whether they chose to eat or not was known by God to begin with. Whatever their choice would have been, God would have known. The outcome of their actions was not made by God, it was made by man. He created, they engaged. God probably knew all along. But he gave them the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

No, she *made* herself eat it due to temptation.

Yes, but a computer does what you tell it to do. God tells/told people what to do, however many do not/did not do what God says/said. Therefore, they are not programs.

Somewhat yes. However you can have two humans cloned the same exact way, and spread them out over the earth and let time pass and and they will both act differently. One could be a priest, the other a murderer. Genetics alone do not determine the behavior of a person. There are many varibles that effect the overall outcome of a human being.

She was made by God, but God gave her the ability to rationalize by herself.

This is a very hard concept to grasp. I can understand it, but it's very difficult to explain. God made them yes, and he probably knew their outcome. However, he did not "program" them to eat the fruit. He created them to live their lives as they wanted. Now, this does not mean that God didnt know what was going to happen but either way had he intentionally programmed them not to eat the fruit, then this would take away their free will and their ability to chose. Had he done this, they would be robots and not free spirited humans to give him true love. (Which is the reason why humans were created, in my opinion.)

This was a matter of choice. The only way to accept God is through your own choice. It cannot be "programmed," because this would be false, fake and artificial. You would not be a human.

Sounds to me like the apple is a metaphor for oral sex. (Just kidding or not). Every one who's evolved away from religion knows that it is really free will that we're talking about.

Guys please! we could argue over metaphores and writings for ever (it wouldnt be a wasted debate).

what i wanted to demonstrate is the principles/concepts (core), forget the fine details but lets discuss the key principles and concepts in what makes you do good/bad

regarding right and wrong (a key principle) in the absence of any god or spiritulism, the concept of good/bad is purely a reaction of man and has no universal weighting (e.g if you think i'm evil it isn't a universal truth)

Another interesting point:

if god is all powerful and governed all rules for all things then why did he create the physics of freewill having to result in able to "fall from grace" i.e why cant we all be robots that get a constant high with a free will also, think about it... if you say it cant be done. why not? if god is all powerful he can make it so as he governs the rules of all phenomenon (all principles).

I think we must accept, that if god is totally all powerful he has then deliberately created a concept that can (and does) result in pain and suffering. does that lift your spirits in god?

*sigh* I ask you to explain to me what you think we're trying to explain to you... and you come up with this. First of all, I'm not even trying to discredit the possibility of a god. Second of all, you havent even replied to what I asked.



Whoah, wait... probably? You do mean definitly, dont you?



Yes... because they were made to have their hearts content after god made them to defy him.



He made them to eat the fruit though, its not their fault they did what god made them to do.



Yes... God, when he was deciding how to make them, tailored exactly who and what they'd be. He knows everything and as such tailored them and knew exactly what they'd be like. Its as if there was a "Yes" and "No" switch in them. He created them and flicked the "Yes" switch on, and as such, when asked to defy god, Eve said "Yes" because thats what the switch did.



But god made man, god made everything else, hence man is just a pawn in what god designed... the outcome WAS made by god in that case.



Again with probably...?



Yes, god made them to think about their decisions... just as god made them to choose which choice to take after thinking about it.



No... god designed her, and as such, he designed her to choose to eat the fruit when faced with that temptation.



A computer does what it is programmed to do, just as a human does what its genes dictate it will. In this situation we're discussing, god created humans with a specific set of genes. With a very simplistic view I hope I can show you exactly what I mean. Basically, in our genetic make up there is something like this:

"When faced with a snake tempting you to defy god by eating a certain fruit, what should this being do? Take the fruit."

This is what god put into Eve basically, except not in the form of words, but in the form of genes which then determin how the organs work and answer that question (that answer being the choice taken and the question being the event).



You really are misunderstanding all of this. The two humans will both act differently because of the way the genetic make up "reacts" (not a good word) to the environment around them. If you have the exact same environment (and I do mean *exact*) then they would be the same. If you were all knowing, you'd know exactly how their genetic make up would make them "react" to the environment around them.



But the result of that rationalization was also determined by god.



He also "programmed" what that "want" would be.



So instead, programming them to eat the fruit gives them freewill?

firstly, it is a falacy that this bbiblegod is all powerful. this has been discussed ad nausium before.

secondly, good and evil are merely human constructs and do not really exist. this as well has been discussed ad nausium.

welcome to the playpen is the best i can offer right now. sit back and watch the children quabble!

"my daddy says..."
"no my daddy says..."
"but my daddy is bigger than your daddy..."

and on and on and on it goes.....

Here's another misconception. All of mankind is judged as a whole. We all have the curse of sin and deserve hell. Each of us. You're no worse than I am and vice versa. According to God, sin is sin. What saves us? Grace. God's grace saves us. I have chosen to accept that grace, so I am saved. That's the only difference between you and me. I'm not better than anyone else.

the grace of a tyrant is no grace at all.

nobody is cursed, and nobody deserves hell.