I feel we have made a breakthrough, here. I remember when I was in my early twenties, I saw something revealing. btw, there were no hallucinogens involved.I was eating a hard-boiled egg. I broke the shell, and the inner membrane of the egg was intact. I carefully removed the membrand, and broke the egg in half. It came apart in layers, and I had what many would call a mystical experience: it was as if i fell into the egg, and the egg was the entire universe, but at the same time an atom. I "dove" into the core (the center of the yolk), then the vision was over, and I ate the egg. I finally "got" several occult teachings at the same time. It changed my life forever. Do you understand that, hyper? I suspect, for some reason, that you, of all here on the forum, might.

yes, I understand.

proof please?

I wanted this to be posted again, because I think its being ignored or overlooked. Good post Insight.

history.

oh, but wait. you think history is a clever trick of the devil, don't you?

sorry, but before the abrahamics, there were cultures thriving. Before these cultures, there was less advanced tribes thriving.

maybe you should read more than just one book.

this post has been brought to you by the words history and anthropology.

Now the official first standardizing of christian doctrine and therefore which books were ultimataley to be part of the official cannon in the bible was orchestrated under the ROMAN emperor Constantine in 325 AD. So you see there was roman political influence into the editing and standardizing of the cannon 42 years BEFORE Athanasius in 367 AD was making cannon lists. Thus the bible you so dearly now hold as the divine truth CANNOT be trusted.

Take a look at the life of this man Constantine briefly:
"Constantine was also known for being ruthless with his political enemies: Upon Licinius' surrender in 324, Constantine had publicly promised to spare his life, but a year later he accused him of plotting against him and had him executed by strangulation. In 326, Constantine had his eldest son Crispus tried and executed, as he believed accusations that Crispus had an affair with Fausta, Constantine's second wife. A few months later he also had Fausta killed as the appearent source of these false accusations."




If the OT is what the measure of the truth (judging standard) in the new testament is....then you havent talked to many Jews. The Jews are firm believers in the OT and outright reject the NT.Also the Jews know the OT/Torah better than most christians. I suggest you look up Gideon Mage's many posts on the subject.




No, here you are incorrect again. The Romans were the ones who formed the bible. It was under the ROMAN emperor the first official stand was taken to standardize christianity and root out heresies. PLEASE read history. The christians werent battling the romans, the roman elite were adopting christinaity and twisting it to their needs. The result is modern christianity.

I quote:
"The First Council of Nicaea, convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great in AD 325, was the first ecumenical4 conference of bishops of the Christian Church."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

The Roman emperors used the concept of Hell and Heaven to control people, and the corelating 'biblical doctrines' they pushed forth. The roman emperors were in a precarious situation, the empire was falling apart and what better way to control the masses than through their religous beliefs.

what does the existence of other cultures have to do with man creating God? I asked for proof, not a run around. Its easy to assume anything about these ancient cultures, but thats all assumtion. Not proof.

That sounds like an assumption. The books of the Bible don't support this clause not support the claims of the Roman Empire. They don't. What I'm saying is that the books were untampered as far as writing. If the people weren't allowed access to the Bible unless they were a priest, how are they going to know what is actually in it. You are assuming that Constantine had an effect of the doctrines made. The guys didn't even accept Jesus until right before he died. He didn't understand the concept of Baptism because he marched his whole army through a river just so God would be with them when they fought. He saw Jesus, but didn't follow him. He wanted God to be with him, but he didn't want to follow him. The Christians benefited from this only that they weren't being persecuted for the time being. It helped the focus more clearly on the task at hand, and that task was battling heresies. So no, Constantine did not have an influence on Christian doctrine, he didn't even follow it. Its assumed that he could have, but the guy didn't follow Jesus. Thus makes my claim valid. If you knew the Bible well as compared to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, you will see that the Bible stands against those doctrines. If they realized that their doctrines were in trouble, they would root out the obsticle. That would be the Bible verse that stood against them. But so many Bible verses stand against them, its hard to believe they ever changed anything. And there is no proof of any change. Just assumption based on one's own understanding of people. But like I said, they would have changed it if they realized the Bible stood against them.

I've got that album too.

and no matter how much you are presented with......

the answer is these cultures created gods, but before said gods were created men had to evolve enough to make such expressions. The man came before the constuct.

why does it seem you will just wiggle it around to say something like "but what if god put the thought of a god in the fellow's head, he can do anything".

whatever reality you want to create for yourself go right ahead. I don't care so long as you don't try to use your creation to affect anything other than yourself. In other words, I don't care if you worship lion-o and kiss a replica of the sword of omens every night before you go to bed, so long as you don't try to use your sword on anybody or anything.

Why should the books in the bible support this clause???



Oh, he did have an effect on the doctrines being made he was the roman emperor. He was in charge of the process. Are u telling me he was in charge of the process yet had no effect on the process, or any of the decisions that were made??
"
"Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church."3 With the creation of the Nicene Creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general councils to create a statement of belief and canons which was intended to become orthodox for all Christians. It would serve to unify the Church and provide a clear guideline over disputed matters on what it meant to be a practicing Christian, a momentous event in the history of the Church and subsequent history of Europe."
Link
"Only two bishops, along with Arius, refused to sign the creed. Constantine banished them from the empire, while the other bishops went on to celebrate their unity in a great feast at the imperial palace."
link

You see Constantine had absolute control over the process of how the bbile was put together, and its core ideologies, for it was HE who decided which bishops and cardinals were even present for the process! Should ANY of them not agree with constantine ehy faced eternal banishment from the roman empire!



Of course he didnt really care aobut God and Jesus, he was just using his twisted christian doctrines to control the masses.



Going on with the christian persecution complex again are we??
The christians were hardly persecuted at all, only a few years here, and there.The largest and greates persecution only being a scant 10 years long under the rule Diocletian.
Let me quote for you, so you can see with your own two eyes. of Diocletian.
"Contrary to popular imagery, hunting Christians was not the first priority of the Roman Empire. Only under the specific direction of reigning emperors were persecutions enforced."
-wikipedia


Uh, the original christians werent battling heresies, it was Constantine the great who created the first systamatic approach to doing this. And now he wasnt christian was he???

"Constantine also took the opportunity to inaugurate the first systematic government persecution of dissident Christians. He issued an edict against "heretics," calling them "haters and enemies of truth and life, in league with destruction.""
link



Your logic is horrible!!! Just because constantine and his council put together christianity dosent mean they have to follow it! Remember theyre using it to unify and control the masses! A fiction writer who creates a fiction story dosent have to believe its real!!! Your argument is not vaild whatsoever!




Here I can use your own logic agaisnt you. You yourself said the masses couldnt read the bible. It was only the priests and top cardinals that could. Hence there was no real need to edit the bible because the roman emperor controlled quite tightly who could could read the bible, and who wasnt allowed. The roman goverment for centuries kept the masses uneducated and illeterate, just so they could hide their blatant lies!!! What threat is a bible to the roman powers if no one can read it but who they appoint? And should any of the literate bribed and powerful few question the authority they were promptly removed. The roman emperors and his cardinals and priests were lazy and controlled through absolute power of the sword.
Again your logic dosent make sense.

that doesn't answer my logic. You just said that since no common person could read the Bible and that the Roman Catholic Church lied to them. But your earlier argument wasn't solely about how crappy the Church was acting and how much they lied. Your earlier argument was about the trust worthiness of the Bible. I asked for a better logical reason why the Bible shouldn't be trusted, not why the Roman Catholic Church shouldn't be trusted. All you did was help me further prove my point.

wait so he's expecting for us to be bad, knowing that we have free will. wouldn't that
make it more difficult for god to make peace in our world? Why would an all powerful
god go through all that when he can do anything in the world, and noone can stop
him?

The validity and authenticity/worthieness of the bible is DIRECTLY linked to the roman emporors circa. 250AD-600AD. Whether you consider them aprt of the catholic church is moot.

I would also like to point out that officaily there wasnt a papacy until 607 AD, almost 300 years AFTER the council of nicea.

"first Patriarch of Rome to bear the title of "Pope" was Pope Boniface III in 607, the first Bishop of Rome to assume the title of "universal Bishop" by decree of Emperor Phocas."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papacy

If you equate the papacy with the roman catholic church, they again come approximately 300 years AFTER Constantine started putting together the bible and its doctrines.

Its not a 'church' that put together the bibel so much as it was A POLITCAL GOVERNMENT, that forcefully used religous leaders to implement their wishes as to what goes into the bible and what stays out!. You can quit with your obsession about the catholic church now, it wasnt officialy formed until after the process of putting together the bible and its doctrines was complete.

Venom I actually watched a documentary about that on the history channel, "The books that were banned from the bible" To "preserve religious viewpoint", because many were looking and had other philosophys.....

i'm not a persecutor. However, that isn't proof. You are saying that the men made up the gods, but you're not giving proof. It really just sounds like an assumption based on logic, but not actual proof. It appears that its in your faith that you believe the men of those days made up their own gods because they were too stupid to tell the difference. Thats not actual proof. We wouldn't know unless we were there to see what they said they saw. Again its a matter of faith, for neither side has proof of what went on in those days. The fact that many of those cultures no longer exist gives sway to many of them, but not all. Hmmmm...

no its not. for the persecutions and heresies were only grounds to guard their doctrines harder. All Constantine did was take the pressure of the Church. And that is before it became known as the Roman Catholic Church. If the origional Bible was formed 300 years before the papacy officially rose the power as you say, and the emperors were pagan, then how does Chrisitianity fit politically into this picture when the Bible was canonized? But because of the centralization of all Church authority and teachings on the Bishop, the teachings could have been perverted by way that none other clergy could access the Bible. It was a central teaching of the Catholic Church that where the Bishop in Apostolic succession was, there was salvation. It wasn't until the Papacy arose that this doctrine got abused. And, if indeed the Church had perverted its teachings before the fall of the Roman Empire, Christianity wouldn't have had so easy a time of converting the Barbaric Tribes. Before the fall of Rome, Christianity wasn't taken seriously by the Roman Empire. Even though it was the official religion of the State and was structured, it wasn't taken seriously, seeing as most Roman citizens preferred to worship their pagan gods still. It wasn't until the Papacy begin rising (which was after the Roman Empire fell) that their religion became involved with politics.

By just a little history check, we can see that the Roman Empire was divided into two empires after Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Constaninople. Later the kingdom was divided. There came the Eastern Empire with Constaninople as their empire and Rome as the capital of the west. The the whole empire fell at the hands of the barbaric tribes. Then did Christianity have more influence.

NO, YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. Theodosius reunited the Roman Empire, and He, not Constantine, was the one who further implemented xianity, even to the ending the olympic games and burning the pagan temples, and the Library at Alexandria. Bluefinger, you must study history only on the internet. Why not google up Theodosius. He made Constantine look like a little pansy by comparison.

blue another oxymoron it the was proof then of 'gods' there would be proof now, you are required to use faith becasue there is no proof....

That's correct sista Berri...I mean the irony of it all there he is looking proof but he himself has zero proof of his God some just don't understand what the word FAITH means

Now your getting it. The roman pagan emperors were directly behind the process of cannonizng the bible!! It was ROMAN PAGAN emperors that created christianity as you understand it today. Im not talking about the catholic church im talking ABOUT THE BIBLE!!!! There was no bible until the roman emperors engineered the one you have today!!

great posts venom

Hehe, whoops seems that I took a break from UM at the wrong time; too many good posts missed XD

I know I came in a tad late, but all I can really say is Venomshocker, WTF???

If you're a true Christian, you don't need a Bible to be faithful. You don't have to go to church to be "accepted" in God's eyes. Heck, if I had a choice I wouldn't go to church nearly as much as I do now. I like worship without the large crowds; just me and my homeboy Jesus is good enough for me

""If you're a true Christian, you don't need a Bible to be faithful. ""


DaKong, I can understand not needing a church to be a christian, but how can you be one without the manual? I mean no disrespect, but how will you know how to BE a Christian if you don't have a foundation to follow?

fables and ancient fairy tales mixed with some family history of the hebrews. just a book concieved out of fear of the unknown. we cannot as an advanced civilization advance much further without leaving the mythology of our past behind.

I understand what you mean, but for me God and faith are the answer. I suppose that you do need some kind of Bibilical text to understand it, but you don't necessarily need it to be faithful, you know? You just need faith

Vladdim- why do you think that way? What evidence do you have?

the bible was written by man in order to control the masses, god is a concept of man to explain what he does not understand. the most simple explanation is the most plausible

Very true Vladdim, life begins at the end of ones comfort zone welcome ot UM we hope you like us lol

And how exactly do you know it was written to control the masses?

Nothing in it shows that this would be the case in my opinion. WHO wanted to control the masses? They must not have been anyone of importance or high athority, because we can't even prove WHO wrote them books in the bible.

Zero you can observe the intent of the bible its observable....

by putting the idea that if you do things inconsistent with what the bible teaches you are told you will go to hell and burn forever if you don't repent for your transgression this is a form of control by instilling fear in it's followers.

Not in my opinion. It would just be more like a story of fairy tales, nothing more. (If it wasn't true).

or the result of our consequences. People don't want to feel guilty about their actions. Thus they get pissed off at the concept of hell and destruction. I understand, really I do. But there's a great possibility that all this could be just the cold hard truth. You're either with God or not with God. If eternal life abides only in God, then......well you get the picture.

That's what the bible mostly is fairy tales...and Zero how the heck can you prove the bible is true???? no one else can...those that follow it just believe it is as it boils down to faith..

...?

I asked for proof, not for thoughts.



Well, if you read the Bible then you'd know that the only absolutely unforgiven sin is if you blaspheme Him (not necessarily non-believing, but if you say something really bad then yeah). You don't have to plead to Him every time you do something bad, but if you feel in your heart that you did something wrong and feal bad for it then God forgives you.

It's like everytime you make a sin, God makes a mark on a blackboard. If you truly feel bad for what you have done, God doesn't just erase the mark. He takes off the entire blackboard and throws it out the window.


I don't believe that we'll ever know the true meaning of the Bible, but it sure makes a hell of a good reading!

Perhaps if you look at the fact that there are religions far older than the one that the Bible was written for you might understand his comment.

according to the unsaved.

his statement is understandable, but not a fact.

And you can not understand it.....so tell me something new.

BTW: It is fact that there are Gods older than the Abrahamic God.

Well, some do and some don't...lol

So, I guess...oh, never mind. If I say it then I'll be flamed...lol

if the emperor were behind the canonization of the NT, they didnt do a lot. only 3 books, James, 2 Peter, 3 John, hadnt received some kind of high standing within the church by the time of constantine. the emperors didnt leave much evidence of this supposed canonizing. no council issued a canon concerning which books were considered scripture, at least not until much much later. there were a few local synods that issued canons concerning scripture, but nothing for the entire church.

you didn't understand me did you? I said his statement, which was partly the same as yours, was understandable. But that doesn't make it fact, just because it sounds logical.

Priceless!

What part do you say is not fact?

In James it is very clear, "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God." I believe that yes you need to ponder the things, but if you ask with pure intent and an open heart that God will answer your questions about which religion is true, and about if he is there etc.

No.

Science is false.

You must accept EVERYTHING in terms of pure faith, without question.

If not, you will face the wrath of an angry God.

REALLY???.....hmmm see I believe in God but only cuz I want to, I feel its right but I also love science and trust in it too....God created the scientists just like everyone else

I dont believe that anyone will face an angry God...God is not angry..he is all loving and all forgiving....but if you wish to belive this..........ok its your choice but telling others what may happen is not your place...only God will judge that