Many mythologies have some elements of truth to them- but many should not be taken literally.

As for God wanting humans to use their intellect, the gaining of knowledge has been a punishable event in the Bible and other mythologies- the gaining of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which was the beginning of free will in humanity) was punished by expulsion from the Garden. The gaining of knowledge that could raise humanity- and the building of a tower to reach heaven using that knowledge was punished by the changing of language, the destruction of the tower, and the dispersment of humanity. Even in ancient Greek mythology, the gaining of the knowledge of fire from Prometheus was punished- though it was Prometheus that was chained to the rock with the bird dining on his innards for a loooong time.

Which cereal box has the special glasses in it?
Specially marked?

I have said this so many times, but it falls on deaf ears.



indeed, a central theme has always been one of gods wanting ignorant servants...

as for free will.. it is an illusion. the gaining of knowledge does not grant one free will.

that is true, in a metaphorical sense. the Bible was written in languages very different from english and in a very different culture from what we are used to in the west. very few, if any, individuals in modern times have attained the knowledge neccesary to completely understand the Bible as the people in the 1st century would have understood it.

Yes, it is pretty easy. Thats the thing, yet some people are so confused when they read it.

Reading it is is one thing.
Understanding it is another.

let me know when you start to understand it.

let me know when you start to read it.

when i read it...

well, i don't have a need to read it to make my claims against it as they are based on the major themes, not the details. my claims are also supported by independant sources completely outside of christianity.

now you claim it is fully correct, so you had better understand it. you had better also understand the contexts in which it and christianity were created and evolved. you had better have a handle on the influences of the greeks, romans, and other ancient cultures. you had better have a full grasp on the mechanistic nature of it. you had better fully understand it as both a member of the family of abrahamic religions and as a member of the millenarian mythologies. you had best understand the real history of the periods and how they played a role in christianity.

the same goes for those that critisise it.

even moreso for thos critiquing it. we have to stand on logic, reasoning, integrity, understanding, & evidence. a believer can just keep warping things to match their faith.

How ironic religion again sells on a god of preferences? How can the one who is everything need anything especially his?her chuldren to be a certain way. Its that God of low self esteem again...........

Most of the Bible can be understood easily (context is the key).

True there are some parts which are difficult and may mean multiple things.

HOWEVER, as said, most of it is simple when looked at in context. While minor details may be different, the MAJOR THEMES running through the BIble are constant. And those major themes is what CHristians generally base their lives on. It's what I base my life on. It's when you focus on these minor points that you get fanaticism and radicalism.

btw, welcome Sherri

Then by that reasoning if I grow up not believing in God, or not even knowing of a God's existence, I will not ever believe in God because no one takes stock in children's stories, right?

A lot of people come to belief in God when they are adults. What up with that?

True that's because I cannot accept a book touted as the "Holy Word of God" being full of contradictions and pure bad history! If you would study the pros and cons of your religion (read and understand those against it as well as those for it), you might actually get a glimmering of understanding!

It takes an open mind to see.

Well I would guess that the believers hold the advantage. Because at the end of the day if the atheists are right we will all disappear into oblivion and they wont even have a chance to rub it in.
However if the believers are right there is gonna be a lot of “I told you so’s! “
You have a lot of explaining to do Lucy!

They're only contradictory if you read two lines. If you read the two supposed "contradictions" full story, you'd see that they aren't. Many of you here fail to do this, and you dismiss it entirely

I read entire chapters and where necessary entire books and I still see contradictions where you try to read your personal opinions into the very straight forward (and contradictory) scripture passages.

HE CAN PUNISH YOU

So am I to take from the responses from believers in this thread that your god
Gave man the intellect and conagtive ability to reason, hypothesis and evaluate ,god gave man logic and the ability to learn and draw up his own conclusions as to how the physical world around him works, god gave man the urge to grow and better him self even when the evidence leads to the conclusion that god cant exist
Am I to understand this god gives us a choice to discover but as long as the discovery made is him were ok as long as the ultimate source of these discoveries bares gods name were safe and if we conclude anything other than your gods handy work we shall be deemed morally inept and punished as a so called “sinner”

So god said I give you intellect and logic go forth and find me

kind of seems a bit pointless wouldn’t you say ?

EDIT#
Below.

God does want humanity to use their brains and logic, or reasoning capabilities. You want biblical eveidence for this well just read the gospels and you will see Jesus asking questions of the people all the time. He encouraged them to answer on many things instead of telling them the answers...especially the pharisees when they tried to trick him with points of law.

But in the Old Testament in Isaiah God says this;
"Come now and let us reason together".
This is God saying its OK, you can use your brain, you dont have to commit intellectual suicide to be a Christian.

This piece is from;
http://www.preachersfiles.com/evangelism/000569.htm
"This is given early in the book of Isaiah (1:18), and is especially striking in that Jehovah here invites man to , as it were, sit down and think seriously with Him on matters of grave importance. The latter part of the verse focuses on the sinfulness of man, and the fact that man's scarlet, red sins can be as wool, as white as snow. Involved in this is surely the fact that if man thinks seriously about eternal and spiritual matters, the message God has provided will be of importance to him. And therein the problem of our time: Getting men to think seriously about their souls!"

Also the first and greatest command demands the Christian to use his brain and love God not onlt from the heart,(which would be an emotional love), but with all his mind also.
Matthew 22:36–38
36 ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’
37 Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.’
Also Paul in Romans ch12 has stated;
Romans 12:1-3:

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God -- which is your spiritual [logikos: reasonable, rational] act of worship [service]. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind [nous: the intellect, i.e. the mind ]. Then you will be able to test and approve [dokimazo: to test, approve, examine, discern, prove] what God's will is -- His good, pleasing and perfect will.


At twelve years old we also see Jesus in the temple, astounding the adults with his wisdom and intellect, but the text tells us that he was both 'listening and asking questions'. He was encouraging them to think, he was encouraging rational debate!
Luke Ch2.
41And his parents went every year to Jerusalem at the feast of the passover. 42And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast; 43and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not; 44but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day’s journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance: 45and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him. 46And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions: 47and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

If by these passages you mean god encourages one to question

Then why are we punished and deemed sinners if our results do not concur ?

M.P.D.

What is M.P.D: cry: sry silly question I know and is probably obvious

It is debatable whether or not God punishes us, rather than we choose to be separated from God.

Our results not concurring with God has nothing to do with us being 'deemed sinners'. We are all sinners believer and unbeliever alike, no matter what our views are.

God is of the opinion that there is enough evidence to believe in his existence, and that the truly Godly man will aknowlege his need of salvation.


Passage Romans 1:18-25:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Ok ill rephrase it a little will I be accepted into this place you call heaven having believed my entire life that god does not exist if not then what would the alternative be hell I presume?

I believe so.

People choose. There are those who would rather live in misery with the hope someday they will "reign in hell" and be the big dog that has all the power over others. Then there are those who prefer "to serve in heaven" where there is equality and everyone works for the good of the whole group or "body".

It is not up to tags (or me or anyone else) to judge where you will go. Only God has the authority to do that. I know that's a cop-out response, but it's the truth. My opinion based on the Bible's teaching is that in order to reach heaven you must believe in God and Jesus' sacrifice and yada yada to reach heaven, but it is not my place to condemn you.

That aside, the alternative is Hell, yes. But what is Hell, I find myself asking?

Regards, PA

PA i did not condemn him, merely said i believe that to be the case. Sorry if it was not clear.

Christians believe that there is not equality in heaven. People will be given more authority than others and more rewards than others etc based on their faithfulness here on earth.
And i do not know any one whos 'hope' is to reign in hell!

If there are people who desire this they are very very few and far between. I have never heard any one say 'i really hope i go to hell'.

Multiple Personality Disorder
The Father
The Son
The Holy Ghost


Sorry I missed your post.

I didn't mean to imply you did. Honestly, I missed your post when I replied earlier. I was just saying......

SOrry for the mix-up.

Regards, PA

my point was you say god gives us the ability and infact encourages us to question the world around us yet if we do question the world around us and conclude that it is not the workings of god we cannot be accepted into heaven the logical alternative being we will be sent to hell which as im am to believe is a form of punishment regardless of how moral and correct we live our lives the only true factor is that we believe so what is the point in asking questions when the answers are fixed ?


as i said in a previous post

So god said I give you intellect and logic go forth and find me

Most correct answers are fixed,- no one can really change this fact.
As in Mathematics some answers are more correct than others,ie nearer to the truth,- but there is only one correct answer!

I realized that often we look for complicated answers to seemingly complex questions. Many times in school I had racked my brains trying to find a mathematical equation that I felt was insurmountable and awoke the next morning and realized it was really very simple. We assume as humans that answers to such questions could only come from elite humans that live on mountain tops. When we should be asking the child that can point out the mountain to us.
The older I get the more I realize the answers are quite often right under our noses and we almost feel cheated to learn otherwise. I call it the expert syndrome. I always liked this definition of an expert. EX = has been and SPERT = a drip under pressure. Maybe we just think to hard but not smart! The truth of Christianity is simply simple, so even none intellectuals can understand the concept of a loving Creator. If Jesus came to save only the most intelligent of our species then I would not have any hope whatsoever.
Irish

Me too!

The very nature of religion makes a set answer to a question impossible. What is a correct answer for me will not be for you and what is correct for you might not be for Irish or Big cheese.

You are talking about subjective truth or even opinions here.
Ultimately someone is either right or wrong on these issues,
there is a God or there is not a God. You may believe there is not and claim that is 'your' truth and so it is, but when you find out that there actually is a God your truth is wrong and the Christians truth is correct. See what i am getting at?

Transposition of Paradise Lost.
"I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven."

Firstly I'd like to say there is a limited point of view in this thread if it does not consider there are many god's and many that believe, in other than the icons of the Christian faith.

Further, I take it to mean this thread intends our input on our personal relationship with that which we recognize as god.

Consequently, degenerating this into a monotheistic battle royal akin to the other threads asking what amounts to the conflict of who's right and what came first, is no different than what has come before. As if an absolute mutual accord could ever be reached in any such discussion.

However, this thread is that absolute opportunity. As I see it, asking what god means to the believer. Books written by other faithful are not speaking for you are they!? If it's simply a matter of mimicry, then one is lost already in understanding the import of a simple question; what does faith in god mean to you?! And by consequence, how does it influence your presence in the secular world?

The way I see it, if one's faith in their god makes them a better person to share my world with, it's all good.
Giving any care for someone else's particulars, occupies me unnecessarily to care for what I have no right to change in other than myself.

It's my god. I am absolutely right in seeing it my way, period. My sense of security in my faith can not be threatened by others of their own. It's quite simply absurd for me to imagine I should care how my god looks through the eyes of others not living my life.

And as I expect that right I to give respect to others in their own. Because my god is not threatened by the existence of other thinkers that believe there is cause , in imagining creation has reason.

There are not many truths. There is only one truth that is reality. What there are many of are beliefs and perceptions.

And by the laws of truth, no faith can ever so claim to be truth.

Well maybe there are, i think the room is too hot for me thats true, someone thinks its a bit cold for them thats treu, but the single truth is the actual temperature of the room.

except that the actual temperature of the room is quantifiable: it can be measured and determined.

Belief, faith, and opinion are all subjective to the individual.

Oh and I like the way tags so casually dismisses ALL other forms of belief other than christianity with the comment:

""but when you find out that there actually is a God your truth is wrong and the Christians truth is correct. ""

The christian God is quantifiable, he either exists or does not!

Am I to read that as "quantifiable" ?

Why what else could it mean?