does god.....want you to question ideas/principles before adopting them as true?

more specifically does god approve of logic and reason in determining how something such as gravity works or make any theories reagrding physical phenomenon

(i chose gravity as it is not a religious issue)

basically: does god approve of scientific methods?

Well, God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. He also gave us all the properties of our mind. Of course he wants us to think things out and reason things out, but faith is also required for everything we do and believe. A lot of athiests may not agree with this, but it requires faith to believe in God and faith to not believe in God. They're putting their faith into God not existing just as I am putting my faith into His existance. Scientific methods and all that? Well, he expects us to be smarter than that

God expects you to use you intellect? Is there support for that?

well if my reasoning powers conclude he does not exist that is not my fault after all in your words

He also gave us all the properties of our mind

therefore he cannot punish me (if he existed in the first place)

Look what happened to Eve and Adam when they used their brain and ate from the tree.

God expects us to use our brains, but he also gave us free will. This means that we do not have to follow Him. Adam and Eve didn't follow Him, and for disobeying Him, they were punished.
Saucy, I am agreeing with you on this, God expects us to have faith -- Blind or not-- in him or not in him. He gave us rules of life-ten commandments-and wants us to follow them of our own will. If he forced us to do everything, It would be a little like a dictatorship.

I still haven't seen any support that God intended us to use our intellect.

Are you referring to Biblical proof? I'm sorry, but I don't see what you're trying to say.

There is no "biblical" basis (that I can think of at the moment at least), ie Hezekiah 31:14 - Thou shalt use thy brain in devising scientific theorum. The Bible just wasn't written for that purpose.

But the Bible does tell us to question and find out (and ultimately grow and mature as believers) for ourselves regarding matters of Faith. Spiritual questioning and spiritual growth is primary to the Bible. It is not unreasonable to assume that God wants us to question and grow in other areas of our life too.

Until next time,

btw, Welcome DoorMat.

Welcome Doormat to the UM Forum.

When they did use their brains God tossed them out on their @$$.....

ahh... the answer is then obvious! the biblegod wants you to use your brain to better serve him. just like an intelligent dog can do more tricks for its master than a dumb dog but both are punished when they wee on the floor!

If God wants us to use our gifts of intelligence and reasoning, and with these gifts we conclude that God is a fictitious entity, what next? Do you still believe in him, thereby disregarding his command to use your reasoning mind, or do you not believe in him, thereby violating his command to believe in him, but making it a moot point?

Just when did God make us use our brains? I think it's the surrounding environment that has forced us to think more complicated than before. As we dont have to worry about food all the time anymore we have more time to think about God and his flaws. God gave us this planet to grow on and do whatever we want on it, so be happy with it. Seriously you cant believe in that Adam and Eve story can you...

If there isn't a biblical basis for God telling us to that we should use our intellect, then how does the Bible tell us to question and find out (for whatever reason)?

Not only can I not agree that spiritual questioning is a primary part of the Bible, I can't even say that questioning is a part of it at all!

1 Th 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Matt 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
is that what you were looking for?

Especially since there is apparently only one right answer. What's the point of "Spiritual Questioning" if you're always supposed to arrive back at "Oh well, God loves me, so all is well in my world/all will be well in my world."?

Something like that, however, there are a few things I would like to point out here:

1 TH 5:19-22


This passage is in reference to spiritual education. The reference to spirit's fire is about the power of god to enlighten and purify (as in "baptism by fire"), and how one should refrain from certain carnal desires that would quench that enlightenment. Similarly, one should not be contemptous of prophesying (of preaching) simply because it is boring and redundant, but rather one should study the scriptures, and justify for ourselves what we are told, i.e. hold on to the good. One must do everything they can to avoid thoughts that would take away from the power of the faith.

In other words, even though that individual line sounds like it is supporting independent thought, the whole text, when taken in context, are actually instructions to prove to yourself that what is being said is true, not to go out and find some other truth on your own.



Here, well, I can't say that loving God with all your mind indicates a call for intellect; no more than I could say that loving God with all your heart is a call for aerobic exercise.

Using your brain equates to disobeying God. And you accuse us of flawed reasoning.

Edit - Why do you bring this type of argument up when you don't even believe the event ever happened.

If God does not exist then this line of reasoning is pointless. If God does exists and intelligence and reasoning leads one to assert otherwise, then obviously the conclusions need to be re-examined.

so

- either man came to realize there are no gods (beyond that in the head). good for him

or

- the gods are inflicting more useless crap on humanity by giving reasoning skills that lead away from them yet expect us to dismiss our skills and just blindly accept some magic.

more realistically:

the primative part of the mind has mechanisms to reduce stress and enhance survival. these mechanisms became "gods" because primative man could not tell the difference between an inner voice and an outer voice. now even with enhanced knowledge many still cling to the outputs of the primative mind. yes, the primative mind is still there, in the exact form it was in back when we lived in caves and grunted. indeed evolution is a slow process as we walk amungst our cave bretheren today.

There is no separation between belief in God and science. People have separated it.

The majority of science came from Jewish men studying Kabbalah and deriving scientific discoveries from it.

on that note you are right about something ashley....

a man can still believe in superstitious bunk while carrying out credible science.

man is a multifacited creature. it is no different than a man can be the "prince of pop" and a child molester.......

God threw their ass out due to them disobeying him.

There is no god.
God is nothing but a own-created phantom in the believers' minds. Believe THAT.

That is an opinion, not a FACT.

Just pointing it out.

Yes, this is just your opinion.
You don't get some trophy for thinking this up.

Have to agree that is nothing more than a belief on your part. And telling others to believe as you do is somewhat presumptious.

God expects people to have their own minds and use their God-given brains. Ad to use free will, responsibly.

Contrary to popular belief, Jesus did not initiate 'sheeplism' especially in the way it gets used today where pastors kick people out for questioning tradition. In fact, it was people just them that Jesus was talking about in most of the passages referring to the 'pharisees'. It's not because they were Jews, He was Jewish Himself, it's because they lost the meaning behind what they were doing and hid behind devoutism, shunning anyone who dared question the rules. Jesus caused a revolution. That revolution, once upon a time, was Christianity.

And no, God didn't kick angels out for thinking for themselves, they have their own minds, He kicked them out for breaking the rules, which for them having no free will (i.e. the ability to CHOOSE), isn't acceptable. Still there is a time limit to their fall.

God granted us the ability to reason and think so my reply would be YES!

Hence the bit at the end about it being a "moot point" -_o


I would love to see some evidence to substantiate that.


So basically, use it to prove he exists, or don't use it at all if it tells you otherwise.

Okay yes God does want us to use our brains or we would be in the freakin dark ages never knowing how to improve our lives. I don't think he wants us to disprove the Bible though. This is wrong. But to perfect other things with the use of intellect fine

No, they thought with their hearts. Had they thought with their brains they wouldn't have done what they did.

Yes, but whos to say that intelligence and reasoning concludes that God is indeed fiction?

Maybe intelligence and reasoning concludes that God is non-fiction.

God gave every man and women reason and intellect. Or we would not be able to comprehend what our purpose was designed for, nor understand His written word.
Wisdom and education go hand in hand. Even Jesus when choosing the apostles picked intelligent free thinkers to spread the gospel.
An example was Luke who was a physician, a man of science and reason.
Irish

God gave us free will for such things. If he did not expect us to question him he would not have given us the abilaty.

But we shouldn't question God's motives and reasons for everything. Or try to disprove him. Although God gave us free will he doesn't want us to turn away from him and never return.

If we don't question them, how do we ascertain that they are truly God's motives and reasons and not Preacher/Priest/Imam Joe's attempt at getting rich without working? Only through questioning can you arrive at the truth!

True but what I meant was you have to seek your own info out of the Bible and always know what is in it. Not just what Billy Bob says to be true. I mean like saying there is a scripture saying We shall not eat chicken that has been deep fried. Um okay that is bogus. But if we listened to Billy Bob we would put the KFC's out of business.

I am saying we can't just question his actual; existence all the time just for sport.

But, you see, there are so many different ways to interpret the Bible. How does one know if they're really "Following the Lord's word" or not?

And how do you know that the Bible is the truth, it is one of many different holy books of different religions! Could it be that Preacher Joe told you and was told by Preacher Jim, etc, etc, etc - all with no proof of the truth!

Scripture is not as vague as it many people think. The teachings of the bible are pretty clear.

Actually it's not, it's more vague that most people think - comes from being a type of mythology

It could be as clear as glass, and you would still write it off as mythology

As a believer of the Bible and its contents I don't think that what preacher Joe said about the Bible has anything to do with my belief in the Bible. I think we all could understand what is truly real when based upon what the Bible says and not just what The Pastor says. I think we should dig in and know the word whether or not you think it is true is you. I mean would you listen to the muslim who did not know their own scripture the Koran? I mean first things 1st you need to read the Koran right?

The Bible can be used to prove anything. It's propaganda written by people with their own agendas and ideas.

Humans are an intelligent race, but we're certainly not "smart." Not that that makes much sense. A person is smart, people are not. A good deal like to use mob mentality, and are very good at it. If God exists, and he doesn't approve of us using our brains to question, which seems to be what some are saying, he would have made us just like the other animals.

If he doesn't, then it's evolution, and we developed the skill we have. It's a question that has no answer, cause there's most likely always going to be people on both sides of the equation.

in other words you are claiming your god intended for man to be a witless idiot frolicking mindlessly in the garden of eden for all of eternity.



the bigger issue is the bible is but one piece of mythology with no reason to be given any more consideration than any other piece.

of course it can be interpreted thousands of ways. its maliability is why it has lasted so long.



clear as mud! the whole book is "holy" as in the stories are full of holes! it is like a layer mask in photoshop. you can apply it over anything to give a "christian appearance". and just like a layer mask, it is not anything onto itself.

Well, I was kind of taking that as a given.

never take anything as a given around here!

some are afraid of the aliens, the real threat is the bilble believers!

Sigh....yes that way just my opinion. No, why whould I want to have a throphy, Amalgamut? No, I don't want to make people believe the way I do. Just to make them criticise their own point of view. Because, I might be wrong, but I'm at least trying to see things from an another perspective...you know..."what if?".

I'm strongly getting of subject, but:
I'm tired of people taking something as God's existence for granted. People speculate whether God kicks out angels if they have an independent mind....I mean... what is THAT? That's ridiculous. To me.

I see God and religion like Santa. Something you tell small children. When children grow up, they know Santa is a lie. But religion is different. Here they don't seem to grow up. They take and swallow the tale of God. God is something made up by powerful men to control other men and women, to make them their cattle. Just like todays politicians. Who believes that? Nobody. Because that's just conspiracies. Things that shake our present view of society.

To take on where our parents left, religion in this discussion, is called a paradigm. We live in a paradigm. So did people in the 15th century when they thought the Earth was the centre of universe. It took a lot of blood and sweat to push the world and it's people away from that paradigm.

I wonder what it would take for people of todays society to try thinking in new ways. Not to call people that question todays ideas lunatics.

You have said in another thread that some of us could not read the Bible but here you say it is easy.

zandore:

that is because we don't have the special glasses to read it with!

go check your cerial boxes