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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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saucy
As a lot of skeptics know, the Christians have been talking about the rapture for a LONG time. If today you turned on the news to hear that millions of people have disappeared, leaving all their clothes behind, would you suddenly believe in God or would you chalk it up to aliens or some other event? What if you then did a little research to find out that everyone who was missing was Christian?
Fluffybunny
Although I personally think it is a myth like the rest of the myths associated with it, I would get a kick out of seeing a bunch of people whisked away...leaving their clothes...and wallets...and car keys behind....

Sounds like fun...

As an added bonus, it would end a good portion of the repeated bickering back and forth on the forum here... tongue.gif
whitewitch
Hi!

I dont believe in christianity, (although I believe Jesus was a real person.) I dont believe 'aliens' visit this planet. I would asume that some strange suicide pact had been agreed upon by a mind altering new religion, and that the bodies of the missing people would turn up somewhere (in a mass grave, gas chamber etc), like they usually do when some religious leader or meglomaniac dictator starts to get too big for their boots.
saucy
Wow, that's interesting. Millions, maybe even a billion people agreed on a wacko suicide pact?
theoric
why not, millions agree on whacko religion! laugh.gif
aquatus1
Personally, I consider the Rapture to be a hoax, so the disappearance of millions of Christians would cause me some consternation. Since the Rapture is the most obvious explanation for such an event, and if I was unable to find any other, I would both be forced into the conclusion that God exists and that the Bible is not a reliable accounting of His personality.

Which is not to say I wouldn't stop looking for an alternate explanation.
CROR
if around 1 billion people disappeared with no warning and no clues i would seriously take notice and begin to question religion (as being right) i would take that event as a significant one and enough to start serious investigations and probe accordingly.

however that will not happen ever (IMO)

theoric
sorry.

after all the incorrect predictions and claims, i would not believe the christian rapture occured just because millions of people disappeared. since they are always claiming it is iminant, they eventually have to 1: either have something happen to meet their expectations or 2: the religion dies off without any matching event.
CROR
i never ever think that such a thing could happen,

but a good scientist/reasoned person does specify conditions in which he would believe a hypothesis and if there is no convincing to religion in any way (given any senarios) I would classify that as stubborn (im not calling you stubborn btw).

i must accept that i would (and i think we all should) accept that given certain criteria you would become religious (it would have to be a hell of a lot of concrete evidence though) if not then that is a shame as it is clearly a biased view

the probability of 1 billion people disappearing with no clues or any trace i deem significant results to investaigate the reconclusion of a previous hypothesis. as i would any claim for anything....


....that is good science :-)
theoric
yes, it would require research into the cause of the 'disappearance'.

however, without evidence no conclusion can be drawn. just because one old text has a story about such an event (that is not detailed) does not mean one should jump on it 'because it fits'.

actually, i am more 'religious' (in the correct origins of the word) than you could ever guess, and a big part of that is the rigid application of reasoning to and the questioning of everything.
CROR
no i dont mean to suggest i would become a believer in said prophecy, but i would consider it as a statistical significance that demanded a rational explanation.

To be honest rekligion would seem a very rational explanation if said event occured similar to if a giant face in teh sky appeared and said to everyone i am god. not total proof but significant enough to warrant a re assessment of hypothesis
EmpressV
First I think that the number of christians in the world are dwindling so there wouldn't be as many missing as you'd think. Second I agree that something would be amiss such as trickery on the part of some religious fanatic or they were scared off by some natural disaster. Not a rapture.
zandore
QUOTE(Fluffybunny Today @ 03:21 PM )
As an added bonus, it would end a good portion of the repeated bickering back and forth on the forum here... 
notworthy.gif
CROR
QUOTE(zandore @ Jun 11 2005, 10:18 PM)
QUOTE(Fluffybunny  Today @  03:21 PM  )
As an added bonus, it would end a good portion of the repeated bickering back and forth on the forum here... 
notworthy.gif
[right][snapback]669673[/snapback][/right]


thats what this forum is for! or do i misunderstand the Spirituality vs Skepticism title original.gif
zandore
QUOTE(CROR @ Jun 11 2005, 05:22 PM)
QUOTE(zandore @ Jun 11 2005, 10:18 PM)
QUOTE(Fluffybunny  Today @  03:21 PM  )
As an added bonus, it would end a good portion of the repeated bickering back and forth on the forum here... 
notworthy.gif
[right][snapback]669673[/snapback][/right]


thats what this forum is for! or do i misunderstand the Spirituality vs Skepticism title original.gif
[right][snapback]669690[/snapback][/right]

That is what this section is for. yes.gif
aquatus1
QUOTE(saucy @ Jun 11 2005, 07:15 PM)
As a lot of skeptics know, the Christians have been talking about the rapture for a LONG time. [right][snapback]669264[/snapback][/right]


Really, it hasn't been all that long, relatively. The concept of the Rapture didn't get started till, what, around 1830 by the British evangelical guy, John Nelson Darby. That's, 175 years, out of several thousand the judeo-christian religion has been around? Heck, even then, it was just a story until the 1909 publication of the Scofield Reference Bible (King James Version), which specifically mentioned an "air passage". So the official, documented, Rature is less than a hundred years old.

I still think the whole idea is completely out of character for God. Since when has He ever handed out freebies? Anyone who has ever gotten anything from God has always had to go to hell and back (figuratively speaking) beforehand.
DoorMat
(note: I am a christian and am not trying to force any beliefs on you.)
aquatus,
What about the garden of eden? freebie(technically)
Bringing Jesus here to pay for our sins? Basically freebie.
I'm not saying that I take everything as a freebie, just trying to show a different point of view.
I can agree that God makes us work for the things we ask for sometimes, But he always grants us with gifts of some kind.
aquatus1
QUOTE(DoorMat @ Jun 11 2005, 10:18 PM)
(note: I am a christian and am not trying to force any beliefs on you.)
aquatus,
What about the garden of eden? freebie(technically)


How so? A suppose you could argue that the garden was a reward, but then I would have to ask what it was a reward for.


QUOTE
Bringing Jesus here to pay for our sins? Basically freebie.


Couple of things here. First off, I'm talking about individuals. God doesn't reward anyone without getting his pound of flesh. Jesus most certainly gave his.

Secondly, who follows this belief (you'll agree with me, I hope, that this isn't a universal judeo-christian belief? The Rapture followers believe that Jesus died for our sins, therefore we get a freebie. There's a conflict of interest there: the two beliefs, out of necessity, must go hand in hand.

QUOTE
I'm not saying that I take everything as a freebie, just trying to show a different point of view.
I can agree that God makes us work for the things we ask for sometimes, But he always grants us with gifts of some kind.
[right][snapback]669905[/snapback][/right]


I am certainly open to the idea of God giving freebies, however I have yet to see an example of it.
Paranoid Android
I don't believe in the Rapture - that is to say, an event where millions of people will suddenly and inexplicably disappear. The information about this so called "Rapture" you can find in the book of Revelation: a highly symbollic book which absolutely cannot be taken literally.

My belief (also based on interpretations of Revelations) is that we are living in the end-times now, and Jesus has conquered Satan and bound him already through his defeat of the Devil on the cross. And one day (maybe tomorrow, maybe another ten thousand years - we just do not, and will not, ever know) Jesus will return again, and *poof* end of the world.

Of course, the Rapture is one interpretation (albeit in my mind a very unlikely one) of Revelation and, while as I said I don't believe it will occur, if it ever does, I would like to think that I would be one of the ones disappearing.

Either way, this does not impact on my life and as I always say regarding things like this, it should be left only to the realms of intellectual discourse and should not be the basis for one's faith.

Until next time,

EDIT - erroneous information deleted
Fluffybunny
QUOTE(curiousity @ Jun 11 2005, 01:56 PM)
First I think that the number of christians in the world are dwindling so there wouldn't be as many missing as you'd think. Second I agree that something would be amiss such as trickery on the part of some religious fanatic or they were scared off by some natural disaster. Not a rapture.
[right][snapback]669580[/snapback][/right]


I would have to carry a camera around with me in the event the rapture did actually happened, to get great photos of the people who smugly presumed that they would get whisked away, but yet for whatever reason they did not make the cut (Perhaps god grades on a curve and folks like Billy Graham have really skewed the curve to levels of devotion that the average christian couldn't hope to attain).

Can you imagine the look on the face of your uptight condescending neigbor when they realised they had missed the bus(so to speak)?

I've never been one for "I told you so", but I don't think that I could help myself at that point...I would muster my best impression of Nelson from the Simpsons; point and simultaneously yell "HA HA, your annoying presumption backfired; you weren't the chosen one after all..."

tongue.gif
joc
There is no scriptural basis for The Rapture. One has to jump through hoops to get there. The fact is thus: Jesus was murdered...everyone of His Apostles were murdered..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself). Christians throughout history have been persecuted and murdered.

But today's modern Christians don't want to be persecuted and murdered for their beliefs...

....when the going gets tough...the Christians get to leave........

....I don't think so.....
zandore
QUOTE(joc Posted Today @ 08:41 AM )
..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself)
hmm.gif Hmm....
QUOTE(Acts 1:18 )
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
saucy
Actually, the rapture has been the idea for 2,000 years. Even the disciples thought it was going to happen in their lifetime. It's always been in the bible, but it wasn't re-discovered until that date.

Actually, you guys are fulfilling bible propehcy and don't even know it. The bible says that in the end times there will be many scoffers. I can repeat this until I am blue in the face, but it does no good. NO MAN will know when the rapture will happen. The bible clearly states this. Just because man has repeatedly gotten it wrong doesn't mean crap. The fact that the bible says there will be many scoffers actually points that it will be a long time before it actually happens.

Also the rapture couldn't have happened until 1968 anyways because a prophecy says that Israel will have to be back in the land of Palestine and the desert will bloom like a flower...etc...etc...etc...Those are prophecies that are recently being fulfilled. Anyone been to Israel lately? The desert is blooming!
Neo2005
I still wouldn;t believe.
Although i'd be fighting whatever is trying to destroy us.
aquatus1
QUOTE(saucy @ Jun 12 2005, 08:03 PM)
Actually, the rapture has been the idea for 2,000 years.  Even the disciples thought it was going to happen in their lifetime.  It's always been in the bible, but it wasn't re-discovered until that date.


Ah, yes, the prophecy made by Jesus that never came to pass. So, what you are saying is that, for 1825 years, pretty much the entire judeo-christian community had it wrong?

QUOTE
Actually, you guys are fulfilling bible propehcy and don't even know it.  The bible says that in the end times there will be many scoffers.  I can repeat this until I am blue in the face, but it does no good.  NO MAN will know when the rapture will happen.  The bible clearly states this.  Just because man has repeatedly gotten it wrong doesn't mean crap.  The fact that the bible says there will be many scoffers actually points that it will be a long time before it actually happens. 


Heck, there have always been many scoffers. There will always be many scoffers. There were scoffers when Noah was around, there were scoffers when Jesus was around, there were scoffers when Pope John Paul made his debut, and there are scoffers today. Bible prophecy? Heck, it might as well say "It'll rain that weekend."

QUOTE
Also the rapture couldn't have happened until 1968 anyways because a prophecy says that Israel will have to be back in the land of Palestine and the desert will bloom like a flower...etc...etc...etc...Those are prophecies that are recently being fulfilled.  Anyone been to Israel lately?  The desert is blooming!
[right][snapback]671856[/snapback][/right]


Yeah, these things happened. Sure, maybe the end of the world is nigh. I still have no reason to believe God is going to pull all the good little Christians out before it gets underway.

If the rapture occured, I would have to re-evaluate God's modus operandi. It would go completly against everything that he has shown Himself to be in the past.
professorwizard
QUOTE(joc @ Jun 12 2005, 05:41 AM)
There is no scriptural basis for The Rapture.  One has to jump through hoops to get there.  The fact is thus:  Jesus was murdered...everyone of His Apostles were murdered..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself).  Christians throughout history have been persecuted and murdered.

But today's modern Christians don't want to be persecuted and murdered for their beliefs...

....when the going gets tough...the Christians get to leave........

....I don't think so.....
[right][snapback]671019[/snapback][/right]


Clarification:
"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.
144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )
The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

So, that's my 2 cents. I have to go back to work now. Later! original.gif

Amalgamut
QUOTE(zandore @ Jun 12 2005, 11:33 AM)
QUOTE(joc Posted Today @  08:41 AM )
..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself)
hmm.gif Hmm....
QUOTE(Acts 1:18 )
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

[right][snapback]671485[/snapback][/right]

This is what happend to Judas after he had been hanging.

(The body rotted and decayed)

I thought you already knew this....
Amalgamut
QUOTE(professorwizard @ Jun 12 2005, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE(joc @ Jun 12 2005, 05:41 AM)
There is no scriptural basis for The Rapture.  One has to jump through hoops to get there.  The fact is thus:  Jesus was murdered...everyone of His Apostles were murdered..(with the exception of Judas who hung himself).   Christians throughout history have been persecuted and murdered.

But today's modern Christians don't want to be persecuted and murdered for their beliefs...

....when the going gets tough...the Christians get to leave........

....I don't think so.....
[right][snapback]671019[/snapback][/right]


Clarification:
"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.
144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )
The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

[right][snapback]672220[/snapback][/right]

No. The "144,000" is only talking about the Jews that are saved when Christ returns (Many years after the rapture.)

This will be the number of Jews (that are saved) that will be around when Christ fights in armageddon.
Amalgamut
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 11 2005, 02:00 PM)
after all the incorrect predictions and claims, i would not believe the christian rapture occured just because millions of people disappeared.

[right][snapback]669387[/snapback][/right]

Ok, so what else would you suggest happend if you woke up some morning and millions of people were gone?
Amalgamut
QUOTE(curiousity @ Jun 11 2005, 02:56 PM)
First I think that the number of christians in the world are dwindling so there wouldn't be as many missing as you'd think.
[right][snapback]669580[/snapback][/right]

Sure, but right after the rapture, a man takes power of all the nations (and starts killing people of the church that were not caught up). This man is the antichrist.
Amalgamut
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Jun 11 2005, 03:59 PM)
Really, it hasn't been all that long, relatively.  The concept of the Rapture didn't get started till, what, around 1830 by the British evangelical guy, John Nelson Darby. 
[right][snapback]669838[/snapback][/right]

This doesnt mean he wrote down the words in Revelation.

The words have been the same since John wrote them, (90 A.D).
theoric
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ Jun 12 2005, 06:58 PM)
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 11 2005, 02:00 PM)
after all the incorrect predictions and claims, i would not believe the christian rapture occured just because millions of people disappeared.

[right][snapback]669387[/snapback][/right]

Ok, so what else would you suggest happend if you woke up some morning and millions of people were gone?
[right][snapback]672582[/snapback][/right]


mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally). i would then have to evaluate the situation.
Amalgamut
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 12 2005, 09:31 PM)


mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally).  i would then have to evaluate the situation.
[right][snapback]672605[/snapback][/right]

Ok, lets say this happend (millions of people were missing) and a man who was a great leader of a great nation died, but somehow he resurrected himself. And you saw this happen with your own eyes (on TV via live or a reply of the event.)
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(professorwizard @ Jun 13 2005, 08:10 AM)
Clarification:
"The Rapture", as it has come to be known, is a corruption of another prophecy.
144,000 ( not 'a billion' ) are to be 'taken up', 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Judea ( not Christians ). They get to spend 70 years being 'reborn' into new bodies and retrained, before being returned to Earth to act as governors over the surviving post-Apocalyptic generation of mankind. The 144,000, in order to qualify for this job, must be pious, virginal, "chosen", and male. ( The latter qualification reeks of the antiquated religious prejudices against women participating in religious ceremony, because of Eve's sin in the Garden. )
The whole process sounds like an alien scheme, involving only 'tagged' male descendants of the original bloodline.

So, that's my 2 cents. I have to go back to work now. Later!  original.gif
[right][snapback]672220[/snapback][/right]


You see, this is why I always say Revelations should be left solely to intellectual discussion. Numbers in the Bible, specifically in Revelations (and Daniel) are highly symbollic. the number 4, for example, is related to the Earth (4 winds, 4 corners, 4 compass points, 4 horsemen?). 7 is the number of completion. 12 is used in reference to God's people (12 tribes of Israel). Even keeping aside the possible symbolism of the number 12 in 12000, that is still a large number for one tribe in those days. Thus 12x12 and its logical derivative 12x12000 = 144000. Being such a large number, it can be taken to mean the entirety of GOd's people, not literally 144000 individuals.

I'm not claiming that this IS the answer, because there are other interpretations. But it is a matter for discussion only. I find this explanation more likely and for this reason, among others, doubt the validity of the Rapture.
theoric
QUOTE(Amalgamut @ Jun 12 2005, 07:40 PM)
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 12 2005, 09:31 PM)


mr amalgamut is pulling a practical joke!!

seriously, i would think lots of people are gone (if they are gone from around my area so i can verify personally).  i would then have to evaluate the situation.
[right][snapback]672605[/snapback][/right]

Ok, lets say this happend (millions of people were missing) and a man who was a great leader of a great nation died, but somehow he resurrected himself. And you saw this happen with your own eyes (on TV via live or a reply of the event.)
[right][snapback]672610[/snapback][/right]

i will have to wait and see since i have no similar experience to base a prediction on.
happy.gif
until then i will take the christian attitude of "don't worry, be happy". ph34r.gif
aquatus1
QUOTE
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Jun 11 2005, 03:59 PM)
Really, it hasn't been all that long, relatively.  The concept of the Rapture didn't get started till, what, around 1830 by the British evangelical guy, John Nelson Darby. 
[right][snapback]669838[/snapback][/right]

This doesnt mean he wrote down the words in Revelation.
The words have been the same since John wrote them, (90 A.D).
[right][snapback]672586[/snapback][/right]


Heck, no. Darby had to extrapolate the heck out of it to get the Rapture. The actual words that directly supported it didn't appear in the Bible till 1909. The Rapture is based on 1Thes4:11, where it talks about meeting God in the air.
Consummate Deist
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around! That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed! I also find it strange how Christians can totally ignore what their man-god said and take the word of mere humans over his! - CD thumbsup.gif
Amalgamut
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 13 2005, 05:46 AM)
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!
[right][snapback]672872[/snapback][/right]

No, he didn't.
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 13 2005, 05:46 AM)
I also find it strange how Christians can totally ignore what their man-god said and take the word of mere humans over his! - CD  thumbsup.gif
[right][snapback]672872[/snapback][/right]

Sorry, not sure what you mean here.
aquatus1
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 13 2005, 11:46 AM)
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!  That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed!
[right][snapback]672872[/snapback][/right]


Hmm...if I recall correctly, Jesus claimed that the world would end within his generation, not that he would return from the dead.
Ashley-Star*Child
This 'rapture' isn't exactly going to occur the way many Christians believe it will. Somehow, somewhere along the line this idea that they all float into the sky came into being.

When it does happen, you'll know about it. Everyone will know about it. Like a comet hitting the Earth know about it. No one's getting whisked up to the sky body and soul.

Anyway, stop worrying about it. When it happens it'll be quick. For anyone whose still alive, their lives will be hell. Like end of civillization due to extreme poverty and starvation hell. Climatic changes beyond control hell. All fun and games.

What was the Mayan date for the end of civillization again? Ahh, 2012, just around the corner.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Jun 13 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 13 2005, 11:46 AM)
But Jesus said that he would return while some of those living then were still around!  That was 2000 years ago, I see no antique disciples around and can easily conclude that Christianity is flawed!
[right][snapback]672872[/snapback][/right]


Hmm...if I recall correctly, Jesus claimed that the world would end within his generation, not that he would return from the dead.
[right][snapback]672992[/snapback][/right]


Matthew 16:28 - (Jesus speaking) "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"

Nothing about the world ending. And Jesus did return. He walked the Earth for approximately 40 days after his death and resurrection.


Amalgamut
^^Yes, in the next chapter he shows them in "The Transfiguration."

This is my view on the matter. Jesus told them in Matt 16:28, and showed them in Matt 17:1-13 what was to come.
aquatus1
QUOTE(BFG @ Jun 13 2005, 02:45 PM)
Matthew 16:28 - (Jesus speaking) "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"

Nothing about the world ending.  And Jesus did return.  He walked the Earth for approximately 40 days after his death and resurrection.
[right][snapback]673163[/snapback][/right]


The world ending part is in the line right before it, Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time. And the forty days depends on which account in the bible you decide to believe.

Consummate Deist
QUOTE
Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time.

And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise....... Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD thumbsup.gif
Shai_Hulud
Only if it involves something sexual.
aquatus1
*Insert "Second Coming" jokes here*
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 14 2005, 10:46 PM)
And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise.......  Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD  thumbsup.gif
[right][snapback]675361[/snapback][/right]


Matthew 16:27-28 - For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Immediately after this, Matthew chapter 17 (the transfiguration) - "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus" (verse 2,3).

One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.

Matthew 28:17-18 - (Jesus has been crucified and is now risen) "When they saw him (Jesus), they worshipped him"

And obviously some did see him.




aquatus1
QUOTE
One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.


One could, but not very convincely.

Mat 16:15-31
QUOTE
Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    24"But in those days, following that distress,
  " 'the sun will be darkened,
      and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]

    26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Serously now, this isn't a build-up to a quick little promo spot. We're talking about winters, about famine, about the sky darkening, the moon growing dark, the stars falling from the sky; we are talking about the end of the world here. Jesus isn't doing this alone; he's got angels with him and they are here to work.

QUOTE
And obviously some did see him.


Sure, they saw him, but depending on what you read, they saw him for a daw, aweek, for forty days, and they saw him in Jerusalem, at Galilee, or at Mt. Olivet.

In other words, there is no consistent story regarding the ressurection of Jesus Christ. All accounts differ in a few major ways (some minor ones too, but we won't get nit-picky).
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE(Consummate Deist @ Jun 14 2005, 07:46 AM)
QUOTE
Mat 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.". He's talking about the end of time.

And as far as I know, Jesus only said he would return once, not twice....now if you can show me otherwise....... Of course there is the fact that he didn't come back when he said he would and Christians have be trying to explain that away for nearly two thousand year - CD thumbsup.gif
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the text does not say how many times Jesus will return. it could be once, or twice or 37 times.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Jun 15 2005, 01:03 AM)
QUOTE
One could argue that this is the glory spoken of in 16:27.


One could, but not very convincely.


I disagree, it's convincing enough.

QUOTE
Mat 16:15-31
QUOTE
Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ[c]!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

    24"But in those days, following that distress,
   " 'the sun will be darkened
,
      and the moon will not give its light;
    25the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[d]

    26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Serously now, this isn't a build-up to a quick little promo spot. We're talking about winters, about famine, about the sky darkening, the moon growing dark, the stars falling from the sky; we are talking about the end of the world here. Jesus isn't doing this alone; he's got angels with him and they are here to work.


Are you sure your Bible quote is accurate. THis comes from Matthew 24:17-35, not Matthew 16:15-31. That aside, many of those signs were fulfilled (obvious one being the eclipse during Jesus crucifixion). But more importantly, reading further on.

Matthew 24:36-44
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

No one knows when these things will take place. It will be when no one expects it.

QUOTE
QUOTE
And obviously some did see him.


Sure, they saw him, but depending on what you read, they saw him for a daw, aweek, for forty days, and they saw him in Jerusalem, at Galilee, or at Mt. Olivet.

In other words, there is no consistent story regarding the ressurection of Jesus Christ. All accounts differ in a few major ways (some minor ones too, but we won't get nit-picky).


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The people whom he appears to do not jump around. Jesus appears in different places, but not the people who see him. What's confusing about that?

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