Is it right to perform christian mission, to "civilise primitive" people? Or should we leave them be?

Well since "civilizing" has both historically and in the modern age meant providing desperately needed medical supplies, food, and education yes I would say its an extremely moral act.

the idea of helping other is wonderful.

the idea of extorting others in a time of need is horrid.

These so called primative people are more than likely very civilized within their own tribe/community. They know their environment and have adapted to it very well. It's the outside influences that create the problems. Outsiders bring with them disease and confusion. For many years christians went into their communities on the premise of modernizing them, and they have, but they also have been known to proselytized them. They already have a belief system that many of them have had long before christianity. Unless they ask to have a different view then they should be allowed to have their own belief.

Missionaries don't "civilize" (the exception were the Catholic Jesuits who built societies for the Indians in South America, and helped end Slavery of Indian people while at it). Protestant missionaries have one primary goal- bring people to Christ. They also attempt to improve living conditions much like Catholics. Most missionaries these days are Protestant, but they are much more interested in going to areas where their theology is very rare than areas where their former teachers already laid out strong frameworks for a church and mentored pupils to carry forth the work (so you won't find that many Protestant missionaries in Fiji/ new Guinnea/ deep Africa, but you will find hundreds in places where their teachings have been absent). A friend of mine went to the canary islands- he's the first Baptist minister to establish a church there (well, living at least).

catholic or protestant it is still the same process. spread across the land like a swarm of locusts. we all know what locusts leave in their wake, and their ultimate fate.

In the past, missionary work has involved the mass "modernisation" of native tribes, which may be construed as evil (I make no judgment either way here, but the past is the past)

the modern missionary usually goes alone or with his/her spouse. They go primarily to spread the gospel. Depending on where they go, and the skills that they have before engaging in this work they teach, clean, practice medicine.... Basically whatever is required in the society that they go in to. a missionary (and their partner) can hardly be seen as an attempt to modernise traditional tribal attitudes.

EDIT - punctuation

Mark
Chapter 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

So it is said we should teach the world about God. So I do not feel it is wrong.

I for one, do not believe in prosleytizing for any faith. I've been approached by Baptist, Mormon, and Seventh Day Adventist missionaries before. I've also had conversations with Hare Krishnas at various airports. I've always been raised to pay no attention to these folks and to kindly tell them "thanks, but no thanks." My wife was raised with telling them no in a more agitated state. So, they are more fortunate if I answer the door. I see nothing wrong with their activities, but I for one do not feel that if you have the truth, that a person needs to spread it. If it's the truth, it will spread itself and become self-evident.

I use to be a member of a church taht was very gung-ho about missionary work. While they did have an impressive number of baptisms, retaining those members was a lot harder. To me, it looked as if people went through with it just to get the visits to stop since after baptism, they wouldn't be visited as much.

You have hit the nail on the head with your comment. There is no better thing that a human can do than to help others that are less fortunate. We have a great many resources that we do not need; getting them to folks who may need those resources is wonderful.

The concept of imposing your own religous beliefs on another in that situation is just wrong in my opinion. I don't think that christians think that it is a bad thing; I believe that they think that they are doing good.

It is an awkward situation when you are handing a starving person a cheeseburger and then going off about your religous beliefs; you are automatically in a position of authority(the guy with the food and water generally is in the middle of a bunch of starving people), so at that point I think it is unethical to begin to push your beliefs on others.

I happen to be Navajo, and in looking at the downfall of the native people over the last several centuries is a perfect example; the lifestyle that they were leading before the influence of the europeans was far from perfect, but it was light years better than what they are experiencing now.

The native people had skirmishes; they had difficult years with lack of food from time to time, but for the most part there was a balance in the community that kept them satisfied with what the earth gave them; they were happy.

The conversion of the heathens to christianity has really thrown a monkey wrench into the works; rather than a bunch of happy people there are reservations full of guilt ridden people who fear for their future afterlife, and are generally unhappy.

I have not seen what the results have been in other countries, but if the missionaries have had a similar impact to other countries and cultures as they have to the natives, I'd say it is a horrible plan...

You ought to tell that to the "primitives"....to quote a Zulu chief, "The white man came and taught us to look at his God; while we were looking he stole our lands from us!" This has been the format in almost all "civilizings" by missionaries! Enough already, you are destroying cultures that have much to offer and replacing them with nothing of value!

You took the word out of my mouth

Fluffy and Mako has expressed it right on.

Helping is one thing... but what had happened in the past is far from help.. it's desamated(spelling? haha!) many many cultures... And instead of "helping" they exploted, stole and introduced germs that they couldn't handle...

Doing just fine? Well I guess thats a point of view. Personally I think there better off with the vaccines, food and being taught to read and write. It give there children the chance to survive and the education to move on to other ways of life if they choose. Can that be seen as destroying the culture? Sure but personally I think the children should be given the ability to choose what they do with there life and the fact of it is that if they can't read and write they will likely never get the choice to change there lot in life. Does this include the teaching of Christian faith? Yes but hey I don't see atheist groups stepping up to the plate to do this on as wide a scale as the christians do.

That's so true, Fluffy...

I don't have a particular religion, although I know the basics of most of them. The closest to my heart is the American Indian, in it's respect for all things.

I think if missionaries are going in to be good Christians and help people fine, but to push religion on them , absolutely not!!!!

Yet they didn't need shots and vaccines untill the missionaries and white men came to give them the deseases... They were doing fine without those because they didn't have anything thier immune system couldn't already handle.

As for the reading and writing... they had thier own form.. just becuase it's not english, or german.. or whatever major language we have does not make them uneducated. Just unknowlagible to the european ways.. like the europeans were unknowledagible about the native's ways...

As for it being christians only.. well yeah, because christians have this ingrain need to spread thier word.. and back then... it was forcefully if needed. These days, it's not just christians doing help aiding.. athiests, pagans, agnostics... we all do help aids... it's just christianity that still call it missionary. And alot of it being done today is to correct mistakes made way back when the first group of missionaries came to these "primitive" lands....

I'll bet Montezuma (the last Aztec Emperor) would die laughing at that statement. Tell me one good thing the Christians gave to the Incas, Mayans, or Aztecs - three great civilizations that in many ways were advanced to the Europeans that conquered and "converted" them by the sword. Where is the proud people of these great nations? Were they enslaved by the Christians? Yes. Were they given alien diseases that their systems had no antibodies to protect them against? Yes. Was their wealth and lands stolen? Yes, Yes and emphatically Yes! Now tell me what great good missionaries do! As I said, ENOUGH ALREADY! Leave the rest of mankind alone and be content with your place in your little cult, don't try to pass the virus on!

How would the christians in this world like to be indoctrinated by some of these so called uneducated tribes. I bet they could teach you a thing or two about minding your own business. I think all of us would like a more secular world. Religion should be a private thing and kept within the confines of your own little cults.

Very well said! You don't see the Pagans or Deists pushing their religion on others!

I see them darned Pagans pushing thier free love one every.... oh.. wait..

XD

Sorry.. sorry... *whistles innocently and slowly backs away*

Silver!

I don't have time to do the research right now, but the record of missionary work among aboriginal peoples has not been so great. Cultures distroyed, enslaved, lauganges lost and land stolen. Anybody see "A Rabbit Proof Fence". Fuffly I am surprised you didn't bring up Navaho children being taken from their families and put into missonary schools where they were beaten for speaking their native tongue. The price for all the wonders of the modern age was too great.
There are many orginisations that supply medical supplies, food, and education without condition: Peace Core,The UN, Red Cross are just a few.

too right FluffyBunny, too right Mako, too right Hyperactive, too right Curiosity, too right SilverCougar, too right Darkwind and too right for anyone who shares such views, and too BAD for the religion-pushers! Notice 'pushers' is what I have a gripe with, I don't mind religion as long as it is kept/reserved for those that reach out for it - it's a personal choice.
I didn't need religion to grow up with morals and regard for fellow life, and I can help those in need too but I have one advantage over religion-fanatic folk - my reason for help comes from the heart and not some book/writtings

One thought that has come to me (whether it reflects on events in the past or not)...
Missionaries also had one other weapon - self-justification...
ie. introduce new diseases by their presence, then justify their presence by introducing vaccines - 'See I told you our presence was needed, now you have vaccines to battle your diseases'
ie. introduce religion, then justify it by saying 'See, I told you needed us because now you can go to heaven instead of going to hell'
...I'm just ranting now

As I stated in an earlier post, missionary work the way it was done in the past has been......... unfortunate. But as I also said, current missionary work is considerably more low-key. It is usually only a single person (or married couple) going and providing much needed help (whatever help that might be).



Most people have that view. Have your religion as long as it doesn't interfere with me.

If it makes you feel better, it's not personal. Christians evangelize (or 'push' their religion) on to others because our leader and founder, Jesus Christ, told us to: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19)



Scenario: you are at a party. You meet someone you have never met before. You speak for maybe ten minutes. At the end of the night, this person needs a lift home. Even though it's 25 minutes in the wrong direction, do you drive them? If the answer is anything but an unequivocable "Yes", then you do not help those in need as much as you think.

True, Christians get their inspiration from the Bible. But it is love for others which drives their choices. Help given under duress (which is what you seem to imply here) is not acceptable to God. Help comes from the heart. If it is forced, it is not true love for others, which Jesus commands.

Edit - delete erroneous information

well, bfg, do not be offended by this, but the biggest horse's rearends i have met have been christians that are only interested in their own agenda. help others? only when it serves their needs, wants, desires.

now if a person helps without any thought of how they look or what reward they will get, that is something different. a person who does not claim to "love" everyone, nor expects an eternal "doggie biscuit" for service is more truly offering help to others.

it is in our nature to help because as a social species we historically relied on working together to survive. now in today's world of excess and greed it has become a wee bit perverted with people placing more value on "objects" than on life, but that is another topic entirely.

thanks Hyperactive, couldn't put it better myself

Something else that has struck me as a bit odd and perhaps deserves a bit of probing...
posted by 101 earlier in this thread

...creature? I cannot say the same for all religions but I thought that christianity/bible at least does not recognise animals as having souls - MAN is it. Why preach to all the creatures? I thought perhaps a word lost-in-translation but I am certain that there would've been a word for man/human/people etc. in those days unless of course humans were creatures and animals were NOT creatures in those days (quite laughable). and why preach to something (animal) that will not comprehend?

Let's suppose it is so (preach to all the creatures(animals)). There are so many more CREATURES in the world than people - why not concentrate your (missionaries') preaching efforts on them. I don't see anyone chasing a cat with a bible!

Maybe it should also go into the 'contradictions' basket
Please enlighten...

The translation I have says "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation".

I wonder, have you ever tried converting a dog? It's not that easy. Something tells me that creation refers to human-kind. But feel free to disagree.

Until next time,

I'm not offended. And the Christians that I know are not like this at all. If they were, I would have never made the choice to join them.



as I said in my earlier post, help given under duress is not acceptable to God. Help must be given willingly, lovingly.



Answer my original question then (it was originally asked to AI, but feel free if you wish to answer it). If you lived half an hour in the wrong direction from someone needing a lift, would you still give it? (remember you don't know them very well, and you definitely won't get anything material out of it).

I will answer this, YES, because I would like it if I were in this predicament I would appreciate a lift. It wouldn't matter if they were christian or not, just hopefully not a perve.

Well, here is the definition according to Webster:
Creation: something that is created : as a : WORLD b : creatures singly or in aggregate
So if the Greek/Latin is translated properly, then you need to go chase that dog, cat or whatever with a Bible! Somehow, I think ol' Matt coulda used a better word there, one that is less ambigious.

What kind of question is that. If you love life and the earth then you know that of course missionaries are right. It's good for humanity as God speaks to love thy enemy and so helping others is great. I just wish people were that strong on wanting to help our country!!

This has been one of my pet peeves for a number of years and I was reminded of it again about a week ago when I was doing some research in a local history book.

I was flipping through the pages of the book, and it had some really nice pictures of the local natives in their traditional dress and lifestyle. A few more pages in and you start to see first contact with whites.

Then I started to notice more and more pictures of priests, then priests in front of large brick buildings, then priests with dozens of native children all in uniforms in front of the large brick buildings, and further on a native gentlemen wearing robes and a white collar.

It almost made me puke!


So within those few pages that I went through it pretty much showed the downfall of the local natives at the hands of misguided and arrogant religious fanatics.

*NOTE

I'm thinking about putting a missionary group together and going over to the vatican to save those poor miserable people. I hear they all walk around in robes and have to say prayers to some deity they made up a few thousand years ago.
Anybody want to help me save those wretched souls, and bring them into the 21st century?

in my opinion, yes the christian missionaries do some good when they deliver food but i think their motivations are completely out of whack. I sometimes think that the bushmen is africa are smarter than we are. here, people buy a hummer to go to the grocery store every week. While these poor "heathans" are extremely efficent, more than happy, never have to use a harsh word on their children, (never any need to) yet the missionaries think they're going to burn in eternal hellfire if they don't do everything the bible says. Overall i dont think the means justify the end.

Well, I think it's a good and bad thing. The food and aid is good. The preaching, probably not so good. These people already had a culture, and religion, and I don't think it's right for someone to go in and tell them it's the wrong ones. Cause you don't know that. Doesn't matter how much you believe the Bible is inerrant words from God or what. It doesn't matter what your preacher says.

When it comes to religion you shouldn't let any book or person tell you what or how to believe and worship.

Isin't that how all religion started, someone telling you what happens when you die? I mean, if peoples parents didn't cram jesus down your throaght at childrens most impressionable years, chances are, you won't believe in jesus.

I'm sick and tired of hearing this statement! It's a gross generalisation based on.... what is your information based on?

I'm a Christian. Jesus was not pushed down my throat when I was a kid.

Most of the people at my church have a buddhist background. They didn't get it rammed down their throat as kids.

Indeed, most of the hardcore non-believers i have met grew up having Jesus pushed down their throat. The conclusion that I come to is that people are less likely to believe in religion if they grow up in religious homes.

Exactly. I can't say it was crammed down my throat. But I can't believe what's been told to me all my life. It just doesn't add up now. Plus with the way my life is and my past, there's really nothing to make me believe that it's right.

yes, i would. i have done this before.

Say that to the Jesuits which banned slavery of Amerindians in South America, and built their societies into small utopias (until greedy ranchers decided to spoil everything).

They had thier own utopia before the europeans even came over and wrecked it so that the missionaries would have to try and correct thier own mistakes....

Sorry lets come back to reality kids. Native people died of diseases long before white man ever showed up on there door steps. Some of the stories about Europeans "spreading" diseases are just so much superstition as well(for example its not possible for European settlers to have transmitted small pox by deliberately giving "infected" blankets to native americans the small pox disease can't survive long enough with out a host). I would also point out some of the worst diseases in the history of the world came out of nations that even today are considered third world. Forget AIDS the Black death was one of the most horrific diseases in human history wiping out almost half the world population in a matter of years. Despite whats popularly beleived the diseases that caused it are still common in areas of the world where sanitation and medicine are not at US levels.

Yes in the past many people have used the church as an excuse to loot and pillage(lets be honest Cortez and his lot stole and murdered in the name of greed not the Catholic church and to be fair the mayans and aztecs were hardly saints both had a long history of war, violence and human sacrafice). As it stands now missionaries are bringing needed supplies. To be blunt the liberals who hate the prolestizing of the catholic should get off there back side and do some thing. Think it should be done with out involving religion why don't you go out and do it? Sure a few secular groups exist but none of them have the money and resources the church has.

I'm sorry.. but you need to come back to reality. Things like small pox, chicken pox, colds, flues, sephillis, gonnorea.. that never existed among the native peoples.. untill the european people came over and infected them... purpous and not.

To deny that is deffinatly constructing your own little world to fit your happy little "Missionaries are the BESTEST people around.. gee golly!" world.

Ever heard of the term "Rice Xians"?
there are people all over the world who converted rather than let their children starve to death.
Missionaries are a crime against humanity, and, god willing, will all go to the hoirrible torture that they have been threatening poor, starving non-xians all over the world. Free will! I spit on your free will. Do you think a loving god really backs up people who go to starving countries and threaten them with eternal torture if they don't kiss the cross? What pompous insolence! How dare they impose their n.t.
Starve to death and go to hell, or kiss the roman instrument of torture used by xian missionaries to shove their ignorant so-called god literally down the throat of millions! What kind of question is this?
IF THEY SIMPLY CAME TO THESE COUNTRIES AND FED PEOPLE, AND HELPED THEM WITH MEDICAL CARE, AND HAD THEIR SO-CALLED RELIGION AVAILABLE FOR THE CURIOUS, IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT SITUATION. But this is not what they do. When I was in college, I ran into rice xians, and they had contempt and shame for their parennts for falling for this b.s.

I sincerely applaud you. Scoff if you like, but you truly have an attitude like Jesus Christ. It has been my experience though that you are most definitely in the minority. The only people I see consistently doing this are Christians. Non-christians that I know, oh they'll probably drive you past a train station if it's on their way home, but they won't go ten minutes out of their way if they can avoid it.

Until next time,

gee, I've been giving complete strangers rides all my life, and I would rather die than even consider your false savior.

I am not a huge advocate of primitive religions (get into that some other time) however I think it is a huge loss when by 'civilising' them - the world looses huge possibilities such as natural medicines, music etc that is only known to thier cultural history.

I would give almost anything to go back in time and save some of those tribes from the missionaries before their culture was murdered in the name of their imaginary savior.

I agree - but on the other hand some of these tribal cultures were so savage that they prevented settlement of others in their areas.

Yes - it is argued that others shouldnt settle there - but humans would not be natural beings if we did not believe in survival - and finding new settlements is part of expansion of our species/race.

Christianity - as morbid as its history is - is responsible in many ways for how we live our lives today and what laws are created.

In communities that do not have the 10 commandment type laws and a judicial system, then corruption of the leaders and chiefs is absolute.

I do not have any romantic notions about tribal life - I feel it to be horrid and oppressive in most cases, especially for the women.

I do have a little bit of faith in our laws and judicial system (however after Jackson got off recently - I quiver at that too)

But I think it is still better and more fair, it also gives individuals better opportunities to be better.

Christian Law is not perfect - but if you are honest about the laws of many tribes etc - they arnt that great either - quite disgusting really.

Actually I think we should all be preaching Buddhism - I think it is the nicest!

But buddhists always honor local gods.

True they do - but they are what I would call a more 'civilised religion' not tribal type.

So I like em!!!

I don't know who is right or wrong in the spritual realm - but i really dig the religions that do the least harm and yet spiritually evolve the most!

Again, it is my experience that you are in the minority. Congratulations that you are willing to do this. Most people won't go out of their way unless they absolutely have to.

Regards,