Hallo everyone! Was wandering if you may know anything on the oldest library in the world. So far,
I heard rummors that library was/is located in Bagdhaad and contains
books that were saved from christian fury of burning books thruout Europe.The rummor
has it that many books from Alexandrian library found their way there as well
as books dating from Babylon...and some say that some books are so ancient that it's
context would redefine history as we know it today...It was enough to peak my interest.
Do you know anything about it? I'd realy would appriciate more info.

Thanks!

i have not heard it but im sure some have..if its genuine, interesting indeed.

You talking about the find at Oxyrhynchus, 100 miles (160 kilometers) southwest of modern-day Cairo
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=39556

It's it the Vatican, in Rome?

lol
i concur

marduk i read your post about the origin of the name *two thumbs up

It's true ?
but is it the library in question
"The rummor
has it that many books from Alexandrian library found their way there as well
as books dating from Babylon...and some say that some books are so ancient that it's
context would redefine history as we know it today"
seems to be a match apart from the dating error on the alexandrian books

Iraqy people do not seem as baffled when I asked. Yet, they do seem misterious.
All I know is that library was raided during liberation/invasion of Iraq
(do not wish to go into political discussion.)Yet info continues to be elusive.
Is anyone of Iraq/Uruk origin on the board? They may be more familiar.

Welcome to the forums, Suznet. An interesting topic you have chosen;I would like to know more as well. We have a guy from Iran on the boards (Zephyr)but as far as I know, no one from Iraq.

Thank you for interest. I can tell you little I know. I am sure someone from area will know much more.
The oldest written language is Sumerian written in what is today known as cuneiform.
Sumeria was located in Mespotamia todays known as Iraq. The Sumerian language
was preserved as it was written on clay tablets. Many of them (about 25000) were discovered by a British adventurer (whose name escapes me) and
preserved in museum in London.
Iraq whose name is derived from Uruc played an important role in Sumerian and Babylonian politics.
The capital city of Uruk was Babylon or Babel. This ancient civilisation dated about 2000-25000bc
and is known for 'codes of law', hanging gardens as well as bulidings made with bitun almost 1000 years before Europe built any
thing close to it. Being of Europian origin my self this facts alone are fascinating.
Anyway, the rummor has it that there are books preserved from Alexandrian library that were kept in
Baghdad. Not only that but that there were books much older then one in Alexandrian library conserning other then Europian civilisations.This would in my opinion make it the oldest library in the world. Yet, all I know is that it has been raided.

Ah now i'm with you
there was a library of cuneifrom tablets discovered in 1986 at Sippar.
They were taken to the iraqi national museum
When allied troops reached the place last year they found most of the display cases empty.
Thats where you heard this news report
its a rumour
it turned out that the museum staff locked everything in boxes when the bombs started falling.Nothing was stolen.
in the 1991 war almost every museum in iraq was looted to a certain degree.
with one exception
"the iraqi national museum"
http://www.ifar.org/cuneiform.htm

Surely the Vatican library contains many of the most ancient and valuable existing manuscripts. I think however the oldest library was that of Ninevah, in Iraq, built by Assurbanipal II and containing documents and tablets amongst the most ancient ever found in Middle East.

Library of nineveh was built in 626bce onwards and fell into ruin in the 16th century Ce
Library of Sippar was built from 3000bce onwards.and fell into ruin in 481bce
The library at Nineveh has been excavated a lot more than Sippar, because it's right next door to the modern city of Mosul.
Sippar's still buried under the silt
Either way the tablets that are in our museums around the world now are only a tiny tiny fraction of what yet lies undiscovered.
We know so little about the sumerians its pitiful

However, some of the most valuable tablets from the libraries of Sippar and Borsippa (Birs Nemrod) were transferred to the royal library of Ninevah under the reign of Assurbanipal II. You're however right for what concerns dates, since Sippar library is older. I wouldn't however call it a library, but rather an archive. Ninevah was the first library in which we have documented activity of scholars and librarians, a model which would be later on replied by the more famous Alexandria library, which was a centre of culture and scholarship, as Ninevah was. As a matter of fact, the first known examples of filologic texts come from Ninevah library.

u shuld organize sum digs then...

Theres a reason no ones doing any digging at the moment Roswell Man
did you miss it ?

Thank you. It must be the National Museum in Baghdad that I hear rummors about.
Does anyone know what books it contained?
I never heard of form older then cuneiform from Sumeria. can you
please, elaborate? I am interested.
Ninaveh reign Babylon for a period of time. I wouldn't be too
suprised if there was a library built. However, it is not until fall of
Ninaveh that Babylon became capital city of Babylonia and
center of learning and scientific advancment. I believe this was under Cyrus and his hair Dairus 1
around 620 bs.
regards,
Suzana

Babylon was The capital of babylonia from the reign of Hammurabi approx 2000bce onwards, It was the first capitol city. which is why its called Babylonia.
Nineveh was the capital of assyria, which was part of the babylonian empire until it started to decline in approx 700bce.
To this day study the area is called assyriology which is ridiculous considering that the assyrian culture was a relative late comer.
I am also not supportive of their policy to replace Bel Marduk with Asshur.
language info http://www.sumerian.org/prot-sum.htm
You've heard of Proto sumerian before. most likely on the "fuente magna bowl"
the bowls a fake and the language isn't
this is the newest and best ever resource on the net for sumerian proper and akkadian http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html
gotta love those pennsylvanian scholars.

A subject which has always intrigued me much is that of assyrian paleography texts, from the library of Ninevah and dating to the reign of Assurbanipal II, some of them now at the British Museum. The script in which they are written is completely unknown and still undeciphred, being unparalleled in the whole middle East.

This is all news to me
got a link ?

I've a picture on a book detailing the excavations of Ninevah. I'll post it tomorrow as soon as I can. I couldn't find any reference on the internet, but I can confirm some of those texts are at the british museum (not on display).

Here it is. It is scanned from a book, so it is not top quality. Note the cuneiform script on the right side and the symbols on the left side of each row.

What's the book called ?

do'nt bible scholars think the garden of eden was in iraq,and in particular the place saddam hussein drained all the marshlands from?

Bible Scholars do
but they're wrong

well do'nt leave a grown man hangin' dukky!why are they wrong?

Because they generally base their research on faith rather than fact
why'd you think

Sometimes faith becomes fact when evidence isn't available.

yes
and thats a sad thing

Sad, but true. And I'm willing to wager modern society is built on lie after lie after lie.

i concur
(you ok?)

"I primi imperi e i principati del ferro" (The first empires and iron principates), P. Matthiae, Electa, Milan 1997

same photo in "Ninive", P. Matthiae, Electa, Milan 1998

The didascaly reads (translation) : "Assyrian paleography text from Ninevah. In order to read the archaic writings, scholars conceived lists of correspondence between present scripts and more ancient ones. However, the more ancient forms (on the left in each row) are completely unknown, compiled by a scholar at the service of king Assurbanipal II (VI century BC). London, British Museum (picture: Museum)."

I would suggest that theyre unknown because whichever inept scholar tried to translate it didn't realise that it was a schematic.
thats not unusual though
i needed a proto sumerian inscription translated once so i sent it to a recognised authority on sumerian cuneiform
She said that in her opinion it was a chance resemblence.
turns out that she doesn't know proto cuneiform at all
something which she was later kicking herself when she found out what the inscription actually was

The author of the book is one of the most important archeologists and experts of Middle east civilizations. Amongst his finding was that of the library of Ebla. I doubt he wouldn't recognize proto - cuneiform. What do you mean by "schematics"?

Schematics - a plan
being a great archaeologist doesn't help you to decipher proto languages
you actually have to study them
or show them to someone who does.
personally i was not even aware that there was a proto assyrian script
However thats not what they're claiming
It seems they can't translate the figures on the left
the figures on the left aren't in a language
they are schematics.
the figures on the right are numbers

That's all very interesting. But a plan or schematics of what? Besides, can you provide a translation of the cuneiform on the right, on which bases do you claim they are numbers, can you provide any comparison?

From the information you provided earlier D L
the author wasn't claiming that the figures on the right were unknown.
and if you look at them you'll notice how similar they all are. By right he means right hand side of each register.
I would therefore summise that this is an inventory.
the reason it is undeciphered is because we don't know what it was an inventory of. But it looks like a tribute to me

Your theory is very interesting. As a matter of fact, it's the most likely explanation. I do not find however much resemblance between the symbols in the right columns (cuneiform) and the numbers you listed. I must however admit I'm not an expert for what concerns cuneiform writing, so I think I should trust you when you say they are numbers. i think it's a rather unique kind of inventory, if the tablet actually is an inventory, since no other similar tablets, as far as I know, have been found elsewhere.

quote=Dark_Lord,Jun 16 2005, 12:46 PM]
Your theory is very interesting. As a matter of fact, it's the most likely explanation. I do not find however much resemblance between the symbols in the right columns (cuneiform) and the numbers you listed. I must however admit I'm not an expert for what concerns cuneiform writing, so I think I should trust you when you say they are numbers. i think it's a rather unique kind of inventory, if the tablet actually is an inventory, since no other similar tablets, as far as I know, have been found elsewhere.
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It's probably a tribute list from a vassal king from a country with a different language. Hence the schematic.
Like the scribe didn't know what he was recording amounts of so he just drew pictures instead
The numerics are very similar if you consider that they weren't written in a line like we do i.e. 33445 but were rather written on top of each other.. So the higher the number the more incomprehensible it gets.

you can see from the sumerian numerals on this tablet that the way to spot numbers as opposed to words is because in any list they all look very similar to each other

You might be right. The symbols on the central column could be numbers (the circular shapes), however simbols on the right column seem some kind of hyerogliphs. it would be interesting to find a translation of the cuneiform characters on the tablets, in order to better understand the meaning of the other symbols. One of the reasons however such tablets intrigued me much is the claim by Assurbanipal II that he was able to read writings dating to before the great flood, and also collected such ancient tablets from Sippar and Borsippa.

He said "Great Flood" ?
Luckily he's not the only one
the flood he's talking about occured in approx 3200bce so he's saying that he could read the langage used before that
so he's saying that he could read proto sumerian
Thats equivalent to someone today claiming they can read Hieoglyphs
As far as i am aware the only person capable of reading Proto sumerian these days is a linguist by the name of Dr C A Winters.
He's quite famous from the pokotia monolith
Proto sumerian has only really been recognised as an actual language in the last 50 years.
As a result most people have never heard of it
It became a dead language around 3100bce with the popular rise of sumerian cuneiform.
Sippar was a long standing city with a great heritage.
Legend says that records were stored there during the great flood

Btw make sure you don't confuse the sumerian great flood with the christian one.
theyre not the same. Though of course one rose from stories about the other.
Badly translated stories but hey. we weren't to know right ?

Wow! Didn't know I'm talking to experts here! Thank you for intruduction
to cunei and proto-cunei form. It's very interesting.

http://home.capecod.net/~sturgis/oldestlibrary.html

oldest building housing a public library in the United States
Honey
that aint even close